The Other Side are Players Too
After this patch, I feel like the rise in Us Vs. Them has become rather prevalent. This patch is quite unusual because it favors killers, something that has not really happened in along time. Not only does it favor killers, it favors them a lot with a series of changes that make playing killer less painful.
However, this patch also revealed a simple fact about most players; they have no idea how the other side works at all.
You have survivors who are horrifed at the mere idea of being tunneled in endgame, and killers who have to bring the strongest perks on the strongest killers and slug everyone because they might get gen rushed.
It should be noted that the survivor has no clue what tunneling actually is and the same goes for the killer and gen rushing.
While the latest batch does have its problems (75% grind reduction is a lie, Blood point Bonuses, Botany Buff, Self Care), it does have some good changes.
Disabling DS and Off the Record in the endgame makes sense because the only way to counter these perks was to tunnel or camp.
Making Corrupt Intervention deactivate on downing a survivor is a great way to balance the perk.
A lot of perks that were limited in effectivness like Hope, Surge, Overcharge, and Inner Focus got changes to them that make them more worthwhile to use.
At the end of the day, remember that there is no reward for High MMR. Just take a breather and focus on having fun, not just sweating every match.
Comments
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Up until this patch I tried really hard to see things that way. But I just can't anymore. Killers are so insanely unreasonable that I can't put up with it anymore.
SoloQ needs a little loving, because it's miserable.
~No, every survivor is a toxic 4man SWF with 4 toolboxes who BM at every opportunity and now cry because we don't have dead hard.
Maybe at least Nurse's addons can be looked at?
~Nope, we are whiny survivor mains who are salty that without DH we can't bully killers.
Literally nothing gets through to their heads. Literally zero empathy. I'm done being nice.
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That comment is nice.=3
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It can definitely feel that way, especially in these forums.
I hope you'll meet more reasonable killers in the actual game. I know I did commonly before the update, and I know they didn't disappear. :)
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Stop, read what you posted, and listen to what you just said.
Do you really think a thing called "killers" exist? That said term actually is real? That there's a hive mind that goes through things with a robotic mindset that controls everything you encounter? Sheesh.
There is no such thing as "killers" or "survivors", nor are there hive minds that think or act alike. There are individual people playing a VIDEO GAME in which the results that take place in said "game" aren't the end of the world, even if some hyperbolic people make it out to be exactly that.
There are simply people who play a "role", sometimes solely one or the other. There's plenty of people like myself who play both roles, who understand the frustrations that have come and currently do come with either. There's actual children playing the game, adults acting like children, really crappy people who're playing for the wrong reasons, a handful of old as %$&# people like myself, and a LOT of people, adults and minors who're just trying to have fun when they hit "ready", and many of us still are trying to have that fun, even when the game isn't perfect at times.
You said you "tried really hard" to realize that there are people -- those aren't perfect people, but flawed people who don't always do the right things, sometimes even if their heart is in the right place -- on the other end of the game that you're playing? And now you won't anymore, as if that would make things better for anyone?
Try harder.
The "pick a side" nonsense that pollutes this community and this forum is tiresome, unnecessary, does NOTHING to improve the experience of EVERYONE who IS playing the game to have a good time, and it counterproductive to actual, meaningful change that would make the game better for all who play it. Be BETTER than the people you perceive aren't part of the solution, or else you're simply being more of part of the problem
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Killers aren't the ones being unreasonable. And honestly, this post is a perfect example.
Sure, some are having a bit of fun at your expense, because of the years upon years of killers getting the greasy end of the stick, and the second something gets nerfed, we get posts like this sulking and catastrophizing.
Some are trying to explain that things are still fine, you'll just need to adapt a bit.
You're also deliberately strawmanning here. Hard.
- Literally nobody is saying that every survivor is a toxic 4man, and I challenge you to find me a single person that is. What people are saying is that you cannot balance the game around both solos and SWF, and thus this game has to be balanced around SWF.
- Nurse is too strong, and I think the vast, vast majority of players agree. The problem is that - as you so perfectly demonstrate here - the second they give in and change anything now, you're going to want more. And more. And more. Until basically every change that has been made this patch is undone - I mean, the amount of 'revert gens to 80 seconds but keep regression perks nerfed' posts...bloody hell.
Seriously, this post is the epitome of us versus them.
Stop.
PS: You are projecting here. Hard.
We have empathy. We just think the game is healthier now.
Bingo.
What annoyed me was the 'us versus them is bad - but us versus them is killers fault and so we should hate all killer players because they are all terrible people' mindset.
Just...argh.
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I used to have a lot of admiration for people who play killer. I was not happy at all when the developers decided to nerf Billy, Freddy and Deathslinger. I've posted my opinion about these multiple times in their respective threads.
But now that solo q is once again being left behind and forgotten, even thought it was already the most miserable role in the game, I don't see that many killer mains having at least a bit of empathy towards solo q players, quite the opposite actually.
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I see plenty. But most of them are correctly pointing out that you can't balance this game around solos and SWF - someone has to lose out.
Solo needs some help, but you can't just buff solo out the wazoo.
Beyond this - yeah, no. With posts like this:
can you blame killer players for being a bit defensive?
Post edited by EQWashu on3 -
Yes I can blame killer players for getting defensive against solo q players yes.
You telling solo players that they have to "lose out" is exactly one of the issues I was talking about.
What if I just told killers they have to "lose out" if they decide to play killers like trapper, sadako etc? How is that a good answer at all?
I'd rather weak killers getting buffed than just telling people "oops sorry, guess you have to play nurse instead".
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Imho, I don't think you are totally right on this one.
I don't exactly agree with everything @Beatricks said. Not every killer is going out there saying "every Survivor is an elite 4-man SWF with BNps and DS and Insta-Blinds and bla bla bla". That is just unrealistic. However, what is undeniably happening is a tidal wave of posts that completely ignore the issues of Solo Queue in favor of saying: "YoU cAn'T cRuTcH oN dEaD hArD aNyMoRe". Posts that come from people who have ZERO idea how the other side works.
Heck, there was even one where OP lied about their experience (no name and shame).
"Sure, some are having a bit of fun at your expense, because of the years upon years of killers getting the greasy end of the stick, and the second something gets nerfed, we get posts like this sulking and catastrophizing."
And this is just wrong. People tend to focus on bad experiences instead of the good ones, that is just natural, but killer has been fully playable and winnable for a VERY long time. I myself am proof of that: started late 2018 and in the early days barely touched Survivor. And hey, I am not a good player. Killers haven't been getting the greasy end of the stick for years. Quite the contrary, actually.
Even if it was true, it is no excuse for troll posts or sassy remarks.
Look...what I am trying to say here is that the post may be us vs them, but so is yours. You gotta see the issue here The situation here would be no different if the roles were reversed: with Survivors receiving a buff while killers got nerfed. There would be constructive criticism and there would be troll posts like the ones we are seeing right now.
And those troll posts is what your "anger" should be directed towards, no matter from which side they come from.
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A player base, no matter how finely you define it, will never be a monolith.
But my god there has been some whining recently.
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Hmm, I'm not sure you're getting my point.
Let me see if I can explain.
This game has 2 matchups.
Solo versus killer
SWF versus killer
Now, if you buff solos, you also buff SWF and all killers lose out.
BHVR have said that they won't be nerfing SWFs.
Therefore, the only way to handle this is to buff killers - because someone is going to lose out, and it's more fair for that to be part of one faction than the entirety of the other.
Killers who play low tier picks know that they are going to lose out. Trapper, for example, will literally never be a good killer. 'Guess you have to play Nurse instead'...how is that not the case? Particularly before 6.1.0, about the only chance you had against a strong SWF was playing Nurse or Blight - which is why those killers are so over-represented at higher MMRs.
Now, naturally, you can do stuff to help solos. People keep asking for basekit Kindred, sans killer aura. No problem. The status icons? Sure.
I'm just not sure how much difference that'll make, because the problem isn't communication - it's luck of the draw.
But okay - outside of these changes, how do you buff solos without being unfair to killers as far as the SWF matchup is concerned?
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2.0.0
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That far back huh?
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My expertise is with Old DBD.
And you asked for a killer-favored patch.
You didn't say it had to be recent.
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What makes me annoyed about this patch is that the developers should have known the massive gap between swf and solo. Yet they prioritise this instead of making the gap smaller.
I get it, both things have to be done. But before we can get a proper adjustment to solo, solo players will just suffer bad for what seems like months after reading what Mandy replied the other day about “taking time”.
The devs did this in good spirit I’m sure, but it is overkill what they did. This is now a horrible experience playing solo.
Salt is added when opinions of this is met with laughter by other players basically saying “suck it”. I can understand it.
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It's quite sad to see people becoming the thing they hate most, saying "they don't have empathy" while not even trying to understand their PoV, and can't accept the fact people have different opinions.
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There is no "other side". Most players are both killers and survivors.
Of course, there are some who only play one side. But they basically know only half the game (if even that) and I'm not sure their opinion on "the other side" carries much weight.
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Who the hell is ignoring or downplaying the issues with SoloQ?
Nobody is saying those issues aren't valid, what anyone is saying is that those aren't new issues, they've always been there, they're nothing to do with this patch.
They're entirely separate issues that need to be addressed, and don't invalidate the need for killers to get quality of life improvements against all survivors, solo or otherwise.
So what killers are being accused of here is exactly what this survivor is doing. "Gen times being increased is not fair because solo queue still sucks!" Two different issues.
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"Who the hell is doing this thing that happens on every thread about solo q". yea.
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No, we're saying that you can't balance this game around solo queue. It's...not possible.
How were killers not getting the greasy end of the stick? I started in 2020, and it took ages for DS or OoO to get nerfed - these two perks were probably stronger than anything killers have ever had. Then you had the 'you can't pick me up from here' spots that still exist. Sure, things aren't as bad as they once were - but until quite recently, killers still had it rough.
How do I know?
The devs themselves said so, regarding kill rates.
I'm not trolling anyone. I am pointing out that people are overreacting and calling down hate on folks via terrible logic and outright lies though. If that's me being sassy, then I'll continue to sass.
I play both sides, about equally now. I want everyone to have fun. But sometimes, balance is going to be a zero sum game, and BHVR - by their numbers - said that this time killers need to win and survivors need to die a bit more often. That's sort of the long and short of it.
My post is 'us versus them' in the sense that it's calmer, more rational posters against posters like this.
It's...so odd that you're being apologist for this nonsense, as you tend to be fairly constructive, in general.
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Show me an example of a "killer" saying solo q isn't a valid problem.
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Have you read those threads?
It is always the same:
"Skill issue"
"Can't crutch on Dead Hard anymore"
"MMR will send you back to your place now that you don't have DH, trust me bro".
How is that not ignoring the issues?
I am not saying you are doing it. Nor am I saying that everyone is doing it.
I am only saying there are some posts doing it.
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Clearly you're not this dense (or new)... which if you are, no offense but entertaining your theories/original post isn't even worth the time.
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Those are all addressing survivors in general, not specifically solo survivors.
All of those things apply to all survivors, whether solo or SWF.
You can't only balance things in regard to solo survivors, because that just gives SWF an untenable advantage. You need to balance against all survivors as a whole.
What solo q needs is base kit information and quality of life improvements that raise it closer to the level of SWFs, not flat balance changes that make it easier for them to escape.
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"What solo q needs is base kit information and quality of life improvements that raise it closer to the level of SWFs, not flat balance changes that make it easier for them to escape."
But I am not saying that.
All I am saying is that those pathetic troll posts are not good and they have to go.
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The vast majority of patches give us tiny adjustments to a handful of perks or killer powers. Which does nothing to anyone not running those things. The last patch for example that changed the haemorrhage effect. Brilliant, I never run haemorrhage effects. Nice killer sided patch there.
Meanwhile survivors get things like Circle of Healing. It doesn't matter if you run CoH or not, someone on your team will, every survivor benefits from every buff to any survivor perk because someone on their team will be using it at some point.
Boons in general swayed the balance dramatically towards survivors. I had entire builds gutted that forced me to stop playing killers entirely because I either couldn't keep up with the rapid healing (no more hit and run) or I had no information available (shadowstep invalidating every aura add on or perk). These sort of things drove killers into camping and tunnelling, because their other strategies no longer worked.
The last decent killer perk that was in any way close to being 'meta' was Pain Resonance, and that just got nerfed.
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Tunneling as killer is a viable strategy point blank. Its risk and reward because you can lose all your gens doing it. You are baiting the team to be altruistic. Period
Gen rushing isn't even a thing. Survivors ONLY objective to escape is do gens. period.
Either side complaining about either thing is absolutely entitled and does not understand how the other side works. period.
I love this game and play and win both sides. People need to learn the new meta. Point blank. It took me a good chunk of games and all my builds on every character I play is different from pre patch and my win rates have actually sky rocketed on both sides
frankly the only time i lose now is as survivor when teammates throw or dc.
This game definitely has an us vs them mentality
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Sigh.
They are aware of it.
It's just...really, really hard to solve. I can't think of many ways to make this gap smaller that won't either require a top down rework of game mechanics or bork the SWF versus killer matchup further.
Is it overkill? I'm not sure, and neither are you. It's going to come down to what the devs' numbers say, and that'll take some time.
Who, exactly, is saying 'suck it?'. I can't think of anyone offhand.
As you said - 'not exactly'.
Skill issue, in the sense of 'survivor is about coordination, and solos tend to be less coordinated' - sure.
Dead Hard, particularly at higher MMRs, probably let people drift up higher than they should have been.
MMR will help with this, it'll just take a while. And people also need to understand that the stated goal of this patch was higher kill rates.
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This patch did 2 things, did them really well, amd its throwing a lot of Survivors into a panic.
1- It showed a LOT of players have been carried thanks to DH. And before anyone jumps down because I DARED mention that perk, read. DH allowed players to extend chases they otherwise wouldn't have been able to, either thanks to dodging a hit or gaining ground to the next loop. And even IF you are on of the majority minority who claim they never used DH, I guarantee you have had teammates who did, and you were able to reap the benefits.
Now chases are ending quicker, allowing Killers to have a momentum. This leads into the 2nd part.
2- M1 Killers have become more viable. In the past few years M1 Killers were weak simply because if you couldn't chase you were at a disadvantage. This patch now allows M1 Killers to better perform. No, they haven't jumped forward in tier lists, but now chases are no longer heavily reliant on either a Killers power or lack of DH.
As for all of these other "problems", I promise you they have existed before this patch. Killers still camped and tunneled (and those strats were still viable and legal than) Thana Legion and Plague did exist (I would know, I ran them and good teams still beat them). Games are just now ending quicker cause people quit on first hook, or quit cause they dont like Killer.
bUT i DonT LIkE X KiLl3R/StrAt. Its a game, I recommend getting over it.
The only issue is indeed SoloQ, but again, Devs cant really buff SoloQ without buffing SWF with them, and thats not Killers fault, thats the Devs problem.
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If you think I will call people out you are wrong.
I can only hope the developers sees in their numbers what I and many solo q survivors are feeling and that is that the game right now feels hopeless and impossible.
Even small games have some sort of information system, it can’t physically be that hard to make? I don’t know, I’m not an expert. It just feels weird that they can’t make a little effort to get this done.
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I'd care a lot more about the plight survivor players think they're in right now if I wasn't constantly dealing with salty tears over how I didn't give hatch or went for a 4K instead of settling for a 3K. The entire survivor main sub-culture has all these rules they think killer mains are supposed to just know and understand and follow, and I'm sure it's purely coincidental that these rules always benefit the survivors.
It's almost as if as a killer if I don't play in the most sub-optimal way possible and put two hook states on every survivor before killing the first one that I'm some try hard camping tunneling sweat hog juice machine.
Some people out there really need to grow up.
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The grind was heavely increased this patch yeah you get perks easier but the actual grind is much bigger and it is much harder to get good add ons as killer and good items as survivor.
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Dirty stragedy but not that risky anymore works 99% of time no-one uses ds and survivors usually throw game trying to help when you tunnel and facecamp one. My last bubba games has lasted 2-4 mins using these fair stragedies.
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Word. And I have only been a killer main since last October, so I got at least three tiniest sliver of humanity left. Go figure.
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And while you are at it, find one saying here anything other then "DS deactivating in end game was awesome, but the 3s stun duration is laughable and should be rolled back".
I honestly can't remember seeing any.
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I killer main and the DS nerf to three seconds makes the perk range from okay-ish to utterly worthless, depending on the killer you're facing. Playing against Nurse or Blight or Spirit? DS is now utterly worthless. Playing against the worst M1 killers in the game? It's probably okay-ish.
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Supposedly not being able to balance around Solo Queue is no excuse for bad behavior which, bad news bears, it is mostly coming from killers this time. If the situation was reversed, you bet I would be saying the same to Survivors. But it isn't.
And, again, killers were NOT getting the greasy end of the stick. You point out DS and OoO taking a bit of time to change, but you forget SEVERAL changes that came before you time, and mine, as a matter of fact. Those two perks as you knew them are nowhere near close to the level of power some killers had available for them, and I am not saying those things HAD to be nerfed or buffed or adjusted. I don't handle changes well. All I am saying is that the situation for killers was not as bad as you are saying. It hasn't been for years.
And yes, the developers weren't happy with the kill rates. But they have chosen a bad way to fix that.
Your intention is not bad, but you are doing it the wrong way. You want to be a voice of reason? Then you have call out Survivors who are generalizing AND killers who are trolling and being defensive. Toxicity goes both ways, and must be removed on both sides equally.
And there is nothing rational and calm about, basically, telling solo survivors to "lose out"
Could have waited for me to reply before typing something else.
Skill Issue - This is not what those posts meant, and you know it. They were basically saying you just have to "git gud", against things like the Legion and Plague apocalypse, or the ultra stacked slowdown. Or how about the rise of camping and tunneling?
As for Dead Hard, I don't doubt a few Survivors got carried by it. The same thing can be said about NOED. But many posts here are endlessly claiming that DH is the sole reason why people are complaining, and that couldn't be further away from the truth. In fact, a vast minority in the Forums have complaints centered around Dead Hard's demise.
And MMR doesn't work. Everyone knows that.
As for the kill rates, sure, that was their objective. But there are better ways to do it. BHVR made a very poor call.
As always.
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Yes, killers had issues that needed to be addressed which is good.
But as a solo q survivor who plays a part with “lots of issues”. They have something to do with this patch because The gaming experience after the patch went from “the worst experience in DbD” to even worse.
I think a lot of the criticism here is valid, although not all of it.
But I will continue as always and do my best to try to find enjoyment in this game even though that is harder now than before.
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The empathy in this community always was rather low-ish. Every time someone mentions a personal problem with a perk or game mechanic, that isn't widely mirrored by parts of the community, you get a giant tidal wave of "that's definitely a YOU problem", "that's skill issues" and "lol. Git gud or get lost".
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So Magic: The Gathering is a game that I daresay is more complex than DbD by at least an order of magnitude. Devs there view any deck that has a consistent win rate above 55% as a candidate for further investigation and potential nerfing/specific problem card banning.
From what I read about this update pre-release, the devs view this same concept in DbD as the 2K/2 Escape. If survs in general are averaging 1Ks or 0Ks too often, then something needs to be investigated.
And that means, by the way, to fix the problem, life for survs gets more difficult because the goal is explicitly to cause them to die more often.
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Agree.
I have to give you a shout out, your commenting is both refreshing and sincere.
I just read you started in October last year - a good addition to our community :)
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Time and time again, survivors have been nerfed and nerfed and nerfed, with killers still crying about this that and the other. Were some of the nerfs justifiable? Sure... were all of them? No...
As for your original statement that it's been a long time since a patch has been killer sided is completely incorrect and laughable at best.
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I feel like you're stuck on "higher kill rates" which that was only a portion of what the patch intended to do.
When it comes to the perk changes themselves they were very specific about changing the meta. Meaning that they did not want people to feel like they could stack on multiple passive effects, they did not want people to always feel the need to use DS and BT. Those had their own purpose in the patch.
Regardless of how you may interpret their goals, the patch (as it's been stated previously) made the gameplay more boring. Does that mean that they shouldn't have done anything at all? No. It just means that they did as little as possible to address issues that were only emboldened to be greater issues than in the past. There was nothing innovative to address issues like map pressure for M1 killers with no mobility. Camping and Tunneling remained the same if not worse. Etc etc.
So in essence, if killrates trump fun/skill then by all means this patch did that. Now killers can still stack multiple passive perks of the same effect. Does not mean that what they did, didn't mess with the balance that was lacking in other various areas.
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Awww, thanks for the praise!
I played dbd rather excessively in that time and, even though I play more killer then survivor, strive to see things as impartial as possible.
But this latest patch was rather decisive.
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Yes, but they did it wrong.
Say, for example, instead of buffing the base-kit, they could have buffed the specific perks that affect them: Brutal Strength, Fire Up, STBFL and leave Ruin and BBQ alone.
That way, you get the intended effect of giving stronger tools for the killers, but you make sure they have to give a perk slot for it, preventing the possibility of a fully stacked slowdown build.
This is just a suggestion, but what am I saying is that there were better ways to do it that don't make the game boring.
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Here is a thought experiment: you take a post-patch killer with all the buffs and a full endgame build and compare them to a pre-patch killer with Brutal Strength, 3 stacks of STBFL and two wounded survivors with Thana.
Who will fare better? Whoms opposition is more likely to crumble and rip like wet toilet paper? Why is it the post-patch killer, even though the pre-patch one got higher numbers on all fronts?
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They have the exact same potential of getting a decent result.
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The problem tying all of these buffs to perks poses is the problem that all M1 killers, all low-mobility killers, are then 'forced' to play things like Brutal Strength and STBFL just to have a fighting chance, while the 'top' killers, Nurse, Blight, etc. get to make use of full builds. Which is much the same as 'all solo survivors are forced to play Kindred'. Both are legit issues.
These baseline killer changes were absolutely good changes for levelling the playing field between killers. And similarly, survivors are in need of baseline buffs that benefit solos more than SWFs. Would you be ok with a new camping/tunnelling deterrent if it was just another survivor perk?
As for slowdown, what they should have done is as well as increasing gen times like they did, ALL slowdown perks should have been nerfed. All of them. Not some nerfed and some buffed to 'shake up the meta', just nerf all of them. Overcharge and Eruption didn't need buffs, and Thana definitely should have been nerfed.
This would have legitimately made slowdown perks less necessary, and less effective, resulting in '4 slowdowns' being much, much less likely to happen. This would have opened up the meta far more effectively, and would not have benefitted campers as much as it has.
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But shouldn't the pre-patch killer fare much better under this circumstances? They got +20% palette breaking speed and +15% successful swing recovery contra 10%/10%. Why wasn't this build not that "crazy strong" or even "OP" in the past, but now its deemed so super oppressive that wholes teams crumble and die at 4 gens remaining?
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I think that, even though BHVR clearly doesn't want to, they should implement more build restrictions, which paradoxically would open up more design space for them, as not everything has to be balanced against everything else.
Like give certain perks a "gen regression" or "gen slowdown" keyword and you can only have to equipped at a time. Or maybe even let Nurse just have one slot for gen regression, crazy, I know, but maybe it's time for some more individual restrictions.
You could do the same with "second chance perks", restricting the more bonkers combos without necessarily nerfing the individual perks.
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