Question to Peanits/Mandy about the Thanatophobia changes.
The developer update mentions "action speed", so does this mean that the slowdown will apply to all actions as it did in the past, or just to gens?
I ask Peanits or @Mandy if they can answer this specifically.
Comments
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I’m more concerned about the perk being a 60% nerf, because the big bonus that requires it to be active on all 4 survivors at the same time, will be a very short and rare occurrence for anyone besides plague.
Why is the perk balanced around this unrealistic big bonus?
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Legion can do that with Legion pin, also other killers like Dredge and Wraith or Pinhead with Engineer's Fang can get that.
But yeah, I wish it was something with increasing returns, so like 2%, then 6%, then 10% and then 20%, so it's viable on more killers than just on some.
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we love them nerfing it on everyone except the 2 killers it was actually becoming problematic on
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If everyone is injured it's 100% the survivors' fault, even against Plague you can play smart and keep one survivor not infected, and if you really need to, cleanse far away.
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that doesnt change the fact that they nerfed it on every killer except for legion and plague, who were by far the 2 best users of the perk.
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Right, right. Yeah, it's very very hard with most killers to injure all survivors, so now the perk becomes situational and killer specific.
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It's still nerfed on Plague and Legion as well. No doubt. It's not that uncommon for at least one survivor to be healed against Legion, and it will take longer for the perk to actually make a big impact.
Not to mention the max action speed debuff is decreased from 22% back to 20%.
If that's enough for them who knows. But the perk surely will be useless on every other killer.
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Imagine making Thanatophobia last for 40s and if you´re still injured you´re no longer affected by the penalty.
It would atleast help against Forever Legion´s
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It’s still nerfed on Legion. The values for 1,2, and 3 affected survivors is a 60% nerf, and that is what the most common scenarios will be.
You aren’t supposed to take the best scenario, and pretend the entirely or every game will be that scenario. You’re supposed to estimate how much uptime each scenario would happen, and calculate if it would be an overall buff or nerf.
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Because everyone was losing their mind about thanat. To the point that people were acting like it was a god tier perk on any killer. Prior to the 6.1.0 update it was trash on everyone except legion and plague. On the 6.1.0 update I would argue it was still trash on everyone except legion and plague. After this nerf it will be trash on everyone except legion and plague.
1-2 stacks of thanat, is, has, and always will be extremely minor. Unless you are a very fast killer or can force survivors to not want to heal via your power then they will just bust out a green medkit and heal in ~ 9 seconds, or CoH, or BK. Survivors who chose to remain injured when thanat was in play on standard m1 killers were misplaying or getting demolished by a killer outside their skill range.
I'm glad it's getting nerfed if for no other reason we can stop pretending it's the reason solo q turned awful.
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The only change is a numbers change, it still applies to everything it previously applied to.
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Do you deny that pre-patch Legion and Plague were the best users of the perk, and post-patch they will be by far the best users of the perk due to the bonus of having all 4 survivors injured? And therefore, the perk was nerfed harder on every killer except for those who can consistently injure all 4 survivors, even if not keeping them injured?
Like, overall it was a nerf, yes. I agree. Across all levels it has been nerfed. However, it's now even better on Legion and Plague relative to all other killers due to their specific ease of injuring people and keeping them injured, while becoming a lot more of a situational gimmicky perk on all other killers.
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Understood, thank you for the answer Mandy :D ❤️😃!
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The problem is that I use it on Legion, and it’s getting an effective 60% nerf.
Who cares if it’s more useless than before on 98% of the killers? It was useless before on them, and it’s still useless on them. We’re getting bamboozled with the numbers rework, because most people don’t understand the concept of effective uptime value.
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Because its very easy to get 2-3 survivors injured at all times, its not as easy to get 4.
Let alone that the basekit 10 extra seconds is basically already 2 stacks of old thana anyway. Having 4 stacks of thana on the old 80 second gens was already large enough to slow down a game significantly. Having basically 6 stacks of thana on 80 second gens was a really hard game to win. Add the amount of time needed for mending(with basekit bt, mending is a lot more common and ensures thana for longer) and a perk like Thanatophobia is simply a snooze fest. Thats not even talking about perks like Gift of Pain, which is a scourge, requires a hook and then a heal.
Oh, did I forget to mention, you could stack them? Slap on Dying Light, Thana, Gift of Pain, STBFL, hook the obsession first and rush the rest. The obsession basically cant do gens if you keep the rest injured and they wont finish gens because you can down them super fast. Thats a 128 second solo gen for the obsession at almost all times, and 108 second gens for other survivors(increasing to 130 seconds solo gens)
After the change, 6%(3 survivors injured) would equal to 3.5 stacks of thana on the old gen speed. But the 4th injure would give a huge benefit.
Personally, I would have split it up like 6% for 1 stack, 2% for the second stack, 2% for the 3rd stack and 10% for the 4th stack
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Yes, of course Thana was nerfed on every other killer harder than on Plague and Legion. But I still think it will not be as oppressive on those two killers anymore. Not sure if it's enough, and I do think they should have nerfed Thana in a completely different way, but at least it's nerfed, even on Plague and Legion. It's just going to be useless on every other killer.
And again, I don't think that's optimal at all. However, I'd rather have it useless on every killer except Legion and Plague, than be op on Plague and Legion.
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it is useless on every killer now. just have one person healthy against legion/plague and the perk has no relevant output. it gets 0.5% buff and now it get 60% nerf.
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Im not understanding the problem here. Its best on plague and legion, as it always has been, whether pre patch, post patch/pre nerf, or post nerf. They made it much less oppressive vs solo q where its harder to coordinate heals. Where's the beef.
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Why not just nerf the percentage per stack to 3-4%? It would end up close or slightly higher than previous 4 stacks on 80 second gens (around 102-107 seconds vs current 115).
And it wouldn't be garbage on all but 2 killers...
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Lets not pretend pre-patch thana was strong ok
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They did nerf it on Plague and Legion too, just not as much. It's definitely a nerf for them as well, though, no question.
- Plague has a bit of an easier time keeping all four survivors injured compared to Legion, so Legion will probably spend relatively more time at the 6% speed than 20% versus how often Plague can maintain 20%.
- In the later game, once one survivor is dead, the perk caps at 6% penalty versus currently capping at 16.5% penalty. That makes a survivor comeback in a 3v1 significantly more likely relatively speaking.
Don't get me wrong, I don't doubt the perk will still be used by Legion and Plague. It's definitely taking a hit though.
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i like perks having more use on some killers than others (ie I'm All Ears is easily Pyramid Head's best perk but it's terrible on Spirit) but the entire issue people had with the perk was that Legion and Plague were too good at using it. So instead of making it a more appealing perk for other killers (such as like +10% for 1 injury, +5% for 2, +3% for 3, +2% for 4) they've made it an awful perk on every killer except for Plague and Legion, who will likely still be able to get consistent value from it. They've not fixed the problem, they've only made it worse.
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Okay but while people were complaining about its effectiveness on those killers a solid chunk of those complaints were about it being too oppressive for solo q to deal with, this solves both problems.
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As a killer I never ran Thanatophobia. It was always a boring and not particularly effective perk.
As a survivor it certainly didn't make me afraid to do generators injured. "Oh well this gen is gonna take a little longer." Boring.
I guess this change will make it less boring: "Oh, the killer has Thana. Let's try to prevent 4 people from being injured at all times and if by chance it does happen we'll make sure to remedy that before doing generators." It's effective slowdown will be less than 6% guaranteed.
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The perk is effectively a 60% nerf. The big bonus has such a small effective uptime, then it doesn't sway the numbers enough to be meaningful. With the new thana, 3 survivors need to be affected at the same time, in order for it to be better than 1 survivor being affected by the current thana.
And the stacking math doesn't work. You're supposed to take a certain combo of perks, and compare the effectiveness of the current thana to the future thana, within that combo. You can't just take the current thana as standalone, and compare it to future thana within a combo of slowdown perks.
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They should have just made the change to 3/6/9/12 percent per injure. Now the perk is total sheet on all killers except Plague.
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Are we really sure it is a nerf for plague? Because the survivors have to cleanse to deny you your full thana slowdown. So thats one more damage puke for you to use. Reducing the slowdown from 20% to 6% with one cleanse is quite a big incentive for cleansing, imo.
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I dont need to pretend, it was. The reason it didnt seem strong was because most killers were afraid to not dedicate to a chase. The only time thana wasnt strong was due to Circle of Healing keeping the average injured survivors from 3 to 2.
Was it stronger than Pop? No, but you can go to Otz comparison video, which showed how much slowdown perks added to the game, and Thana added an "unexpectedly" high amount of slowdown. Just because pre-patch Pop and Ruin were 2x stronger doesnt mean Thana was weak.
Heck, thana didnt even recieve that big of a buff, it just showed how effective thana is by adding 10 more seconds to a gen. 10 seconds that you could easily have gained pre-patch by kicking an abandoned gen.
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After it had recieved an effective 40% buff.
And you're kinda wrong, because you're comparing new thana to current thana. 6.1.2 is a correction. You have to compare pre-6.0 thana to the 6.1.2 thana to see the effect
As for the stacking math, its not perfect, but it is close enough, in reality, 4 stacks of buffed thana on 90 second gens was equal to 6.2 stacks of old thana on 80 second gens.(4 stacks old thana 80 second gens=100 second solo gen, 4 stacks new thana on 90 second gens=115.4 seconds. 80/115.4=0.7(ish), =30% debuff)
And that is excluding combining it with any other perks. This is just the flat amount of a fully stacked thanatophobia, any additional slowdown on top of it slows it down significantly more. I didnt add the rest of the perks because it didnt really matter, its very easy with a lot of killers to keep 2 or more survivors injured. Having basically 10 second longer gens on gens that are already made 10 seconds longer is just a snoozefest
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Too simple of a solution
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I'm pretty sure that's what everyone is saying, that it's now only good on plauge and legion
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The nerf is BS
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Quit complaining and just adapt. If you were that dependent on one perk then your mmr is probably inflated. This just seems like entitlement.
All that stuff killers said about DH.
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It will mean that she's basically always going to have at least one fountain if the survivors want to deny her that perk. So it's gone from being decent on two killers to just being a plague perk.
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Thanataphobia 4-person slugs, enter stage left.
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You're missing the point. It failed to stop the Thana strategies everyone hated to go against (ie, versing the killers that can perma-injure the team and stack mounds of slowdown on top of that) while killing build variety for the killers Thana was merely mediocre on. It's not a well-executed nerf. To use your Dead Hard example, this would have been like nerfing DH so that it only works for distance... so you couldn't use it to dodge a single hit into a wall anymore, but you could still greed loops with no counter. It killed the meh uses of Thana while largely failing to affect the problematic uses of it.
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You're not supposed to do math on 4 stacks because that effective uptime is too low. You are supposed to do math on 1 to 3 stacks.
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Stridor is more or less a Spirit perk, so *shrug*
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