Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on this and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
Get all the details on our forums: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/436478/sign-up-now-to-receive-a-recap-of-your-2024-dead-by-daylight-stats/p1?new=1
Chipping in on nurse(sorry not sorry)
I see very valid point from each side... but not the counters being discussed just reinforcements of ones own idea. Nurse is hard so she deserves it. Yeah hard enough but braindread easy with muscle memory as long as you pay attention to survivors looping strategies. I played nurse on console but not as a main and i COULD NOT get good with her. I KNEW what mindgames to do and how to do it. but could not achieve results. start playing on laptop for a week and probably 4k 95 percent of the time and yes survs werent always good because i was just starting a new profile, but even now that i have high mmr due to my huntress I still can destroy survivors.
She was not hard at all, the hardest part is the survivors and on pc she is so fluid its unfair.
but that arguments would also be the nurse is easy argument but as you seen i explained both sides and what they mean somewhat. but as you can see thats all opinion and varies from person to person, therefore its not a winning argument.
Nurse is one of the only killers who can beat deathsquads.... oh the rarest thing in dbd besides a perfect nurse? the thing that exists in tournaments because death squads dont want easy games? or you talking about that swf that all brought brand new part and other second chance perks that werent even that good but were carried by perks? not a good argument, its like saying swfs shouldnt exist because they have to buff killer to compete with a minority XD buff solo que and then work on killer and the playing field would be even.
She negates loops and thats unfair because it ruins chase interaction. oh but she has counterplay, hold W, break LOS. Well a smart nurse will pick up your playstyle and work around it, ive done it and im not even good at her and still destroyed teams with second chances. I had a nasty build but no addons. Also as to the ignoring loops... sorry but looping is easy, its very easy to play safe and wait at corners. you have the mid tier survivors who fall for moonwalks and redstain hiding and then you have good survivors who wait at every corner and have to hesitate to be caught
looping those easy junglegyms isnt hard and puts the killer at a disadvantage because a good survivor wont be caught off guard. filler loops and 50/50 are the most fair tiles and some maps have way too many loops or jungle gyms and killers suffer and thats why nurse playing around it aint bad.
So I sound like im a hypocrite for stating each side and defending each side, so what am I saying? Everyone has different mmr and different experiences, nurse as it stands is one of the only things to beat a really good swf with stacked builds. but a good nurse isnt that hard to become, she is hard to pick up somewhat but as long as you play killer enough to understand survivors or vice versa she isnt that hard. whereas a swf has to coordinate to beat you and thats why half the swfs have good escape or half the swfs die. it depends on how THEY want to play.
YES killers should be fierce and scary, but this is a game and that cant be possible. if they could all destroy swfs easily then swf would be the only thing people SHOULD play. Nurse negates everything and that isnt fair because most survivors arent actually good. most survivors are playing solo and just suffering because its drawing lots to see what killer you get vs the teammates.
The problem isnt so much as nurse is just OP which she is, put some time in her and youll see that she loses to really good smart players, the problem is the solo experience and almost everything in this game is. do you guys think if swf was the ONLY things played that people would suffer as much against all gen regression or camping and tunneling? do you think youd have people being useless? NO! Instead of people just arguing back and forth about swf this and nurse that and baby surv or killer this and that... why not look at the root of the problem. half the players are solo que and without adressing that huge number and why they are suffering youll always have an imbalance on these topics. if we nerf nurse then swf will be more oppressive and if we dont then people will continue to hate the fact she is boring to go against. she is only fun if she is average.
we cant nerf nurse with good effects unless we also adress swf and to adress swf and killer we SHOULD be adressing solo que, which suffers every damn patch.
Sorry if i was all over the place, i tried being coherent but got carried away
TLDR: if solo que is the main issue of the game then we have to focus on that before we can make game breaking changes to swf or killers
Comments
-
Nurse is dumb in that she is really easy to play once you figure her out. She is very forgiving in that she breaks most of the game physics rules. You can just blink kinda close and correct with the second blink almost all the time.
Otz had a video with some really nice suggestions on how to nerf her.
1) making her blink lunge be 50% reduced as base kit would really increase survivor counterplay as it would require more precise blinks.
2) Make her default blink be -4 meters base kit. This would make her often need to blink a few times if she didn't make a right read or made a mistake.
3) He implies that she should lose her omega blink as well as blink refresh/distance addons and this too would be a fair change. Making all her blinks be a uniform distance with a standard recharge time would make blink easier to learn and let survivors play against her better.
4) What Otz fails to address is the nurse's ability to "floor blink". Nurse can always cancel a blink by blinking into the floor. This means she does not get punished for holding a blink too long. This needs to change - if she blinks and there is no floor under her she should just zoom on ahead the full distance she charged. This would make nurse lose a "catch 22" ability she has now where she can charge a blink and not be punished if she cancels it by floor blinking.
5) Nurse is the only killer really capable of handling top tier SWF groups. So until SWF gets changed to be less efficient then nurse needs to stay as she is right now.
How should SWF get changed? Very simple : in a SWF group no character/perk/item can be repeated. That will make solo queue have an advantage in that you could have 4 characters running the exact same build. Meanwhile SWF get to play with their friends and get voice coms.
3 -
It's not necessarily a solo vs SWF thing. It's more of a matchmaking thing. Especially at higher MMR, you're likely to get two solid survivors and two survivors that don't seem to realize they're even playing DbD. The devs have utterly convinced themselves that players will uninstall, set their console/PC on fire, and run it over if they have to wait in queue for longer than 3 minutes on a consistent basis. So SBMM just says "whatever" and starts throwing players together after a short amount of time.
You can have survivor MMR one or two hundred point above the softcap and still get solo teammates who seem alarmingly new/clueless. And it's impossible to beat a decent Nurse when you have teammates like that. It's not a Nurse balance issue. If the Nurse never gets Agi/Starstruck value on me, but gets 3 downs on the survivor who kept crouching near the pickup, is the killer broken or is the survivor clueless?
I can never get behind the narrative that Nurse is broken when I consistently run them for a gen or two at the start and teammates go down in 20 seconds to those same Nurses. It's almost always a skill issue.
6 -
i mean it depends on the nurse and survivor, a decent nurse can be ran for a bit but it will always end and a bad survivor wont do crap, but if you know nurse enough youll end chases quickly and some of those survivors could even be loop gods
1 -
Thats not how you nerf swf. That would be insanely frustrating to play for casual players.
I can get behind no duplicate items for swfs though. But even that is maybe too much. Honestly just buff solos first and then worry about swf.
At least that hud showing what each one is doing
0 -
Everyone literally has always said swf is about playing with friends. It's not a big deal the nerf I proposed.
0 -
SWF got stronger after the update while solo queue got weaker. Instant regression was much better against SWF.
No one is punishing you for playing with your friends. You just get restrictions that balance out the advantages that come with talking.
Alternatively we could do something like let solo survivors pick 4 information perks ( rookie spirit, alert, bond, empathy, kindred, etc) that are selected ahead of time and activate if they land in a SWF game. Meanwhile the killer gets any 4 perks of their choice that are chosen ahead of time that only activate "in case of SWF".
The problem with SWF is that it makes you instantly better the second you share information. You gain an untold number of information perks without losing anything. This breaks the game and nothing about this arrangement changed in this last patch to help the killer vs SWF.
If I could have 8 perks I would choose to play against SWF ant not play against solos all night. I almost always play against 2x2 swf or a 3-4 man group. It's not fun. When I play survivor I try to do the same. But I want SWF to be balanced and not incredibly one sided for the survivors.
0 -
It makes playing with friends a hurdle. Casual players wont enjoy being forced to run weird perks or waste 10 minutes to figure out how to make 4 builds that makes sense without duplicate perks.
It would be pretty annoying and thats a big no no to keep casuals happy. This is coming from a killer main btw. I would love if swfs were hit like that, but realistically speaking, it would kinda kill the population.
0 -
It would be easy because you could see everyone's perks over their head (with a new interface). Perks that are not repeated are blue and perks that are repeated are red.
Most people in a swf are two man groups so it's incredibly simple to not have any repeats. Don't want hassle? Play with only one other person. Three and Four man teams together are less than 20% of the player base (From the last data set we were given). They are some of the best players with the highest win rates. High MMR teams massively raise the average of escape rates as we have some streamers with insane esacpe streaks before and after the patch.
0 -
You know you have a different mmr pet killer rigjt lol? Your nurse won’t face good survivors because your huntress mmr is high.
0 -
Sure for 2 man its relatively easy though still annoying.
For 3 and 4 man swfs it becomes very annoying.
Look i am not against the idea, it would just kill the game.
0 -
"making her blink lunge be 50% reduced as base kit would really increase survivor counterplay as it would require more precise blinks."
The survivors already have the means to defend themselves. Let them know how to use it.
"Make her default blink be -4 meters base kit. This would make her often need to blink a few times if she didn't make a right read or made a mistake."
I'm not even going to explain how it would be laughable, that kind of thing. Play nurse without addons, and come back to us (and of course, not against noobs, eh).
"What Otz fails to address is the nurse's ability to "floor blink". Nurse can always cancel a blink by blinking into the floor. This means she does not get punished for holding a blink too long. This needs to change - if she blinks and there is no floor under her she should just zoom on ahead the full distance she charged. This would make nurse lose a "catch 22" ability she has now where she can charge a blink and not be punished if she cancels it by floor blinking."
In the category: "Let's give a survivor the opportunity to be untouchable simply by running to the nurse!", I ask ....
Yes, the nurse can do a 0m tp.
But that doesn't give her a guaranteed hit.
It will allow her to hit the survivor if the survivor had the bad idea to just run at the nurse like a ######### instead of FEINING the move.
The nurse loads her tp to the hilt.
The survivor back.
At the last moment he backs up.
The nurse tp without distance, but the survivor has gone back the other way.
And there you have it, magic, the tp was useless.
5) How should SWF get changed? Very simple : in a SWF group no character/perk/item can be repeated.
Or how to turn DbD into "Dictatorship by Daylight".
Seriously, the famous death squads, the famous SWF lethals that everyone talks about, are you sure we meet them at every street corner?
Or wouldn't it be the same thing as the god nurses? Namely the result of a simply talented team / nurse, but who falls on a too weak killer / team (but who can't stand it)?
Well, and if not, I'm still waiting to see how all of you, who complain, play against the nurse ... I'd like to see your level a little ...
2 -
Yeah, she doesn't really fit into DBD anymore.
Especially not Double Range and stacking slowdown.
Definitely needs nerfs.
2 -
Survivor got weaker only in the sense that Dead Hard got nerfed. The very best players were using that perk over every other exhaustion perk. Instead of 75% of the best players now a much smaller fraction are using it (still to good effect).
The game is not balanced around SWF; the second you talk to your allies you get tons of free extra information. Once upon a time killers could equip extra perks as a result of an exploit. This was called "exploiting" when you went into a game as killer with multiple extra perks. But when survivors get the value of extra perks from talking that's fine? No.
"And comms aren't the reason SWF is strong"
Have you watched any competitive play? They are constantly calling out clock positions. The killer's trajectory is constantly updated so everyone knows where the killer is at all times.
If we took the very best team from Hexy's tournament and took away their coms they could probably beat the very worst team in the tournament. But the very best team without coms would definitively lose to the second best team with voice coms.
Voice coms give you a huge advantage. This needs to come with some negative aspect or it will never be fair to choose solo queue over playing with people you can talk to.
You can change whatever menu items you want but solo queue will never reach an approximation of equality with SWF. Talking allows for improved coordination and efficiency. It's one thing if everyone knows you are on a generator, in chase, getting a save , opening a chest, blessing a totem, or healing yourself. It's something completely different to say : Blight is using blah blah blah addons or his totem is in the jungle gym by shack or he has bamboozle.
It wouldn't kill the game. People would take an extra 30-60 seconds to ready up with 3-4 man groups. Also since the new menu item would show everyone's perks above their head it would make planning team builds easier.
0 -
I like everything except point 4. If you’re at a far enough distance, and nurse will have to charge their blink. This’ll just make easy counter play as the survivor can literally just double back since they know the nurse has to charge up her blink since she’s too far.
0 -
That's entirely the point. If Billy uses his saw sprint and misjudges an angle he hits a wall and get stunned. Therefore if nurse misjudges a blink and goes too far she should lose a lot of distance on the survivor. If you make a mistake with your power there should be consequences.
https://cdn4.vectorstock.com/i/1000x1000/27/68/circle-with-degrees-marked-vector-9922768.jpg
Once upon a time Billy had the ability to flick with his saw; that is to say he could charge a survivor at 90 degrees and in the middle of the sprint he could change the attack angle of the saw. You would think he can only attack someone that was on his right relative to his previous position in a 30° cone. Imagine for example if Billy did a 90 degree sprint and initiated his attack and you vaulted at a 180° angle through a window. Well old billy had the ability to make the saw swipe change and now attack you at 180° as he ends the sprint. This was how he worked on release and for a long time after.
Everyone who played Billy at the time thought this change was completely unfair. But honestly removing this flick made billy from an unfair killer into a fair killer who was widely considered to be "s" tier at the time (nurse was double "S tier"). I have a P3 Billy and was a Billy main at the time; I wanted this change to come to the game because the ability to flick made the killer require zero skill.
Nurse needs to change. It will take many facets of change for her to become a fair killer relative to all the killers beneath her. It's silly that we have two killers that are miles above all other killers.
0 -
Ok if a survivor is a good amount of distance from you, are you going to charge your blink to catch up to them or just do a small blink and risk the survivor holding w and you losing a ton of distance and time. That’s what the 4th change sounds like it’s gonna do. On top of the fact that nurse will have a smaller lunge with this change, this’ll just make it horrible to play as combined.
her blinking downwards was never a problem, you could fake a double back, then when she blinks downwards, start running away. A fully charged blink downwards is super slow as well, so you’d make a good amount of distance. On top of it the suggested distance nerf, and her lunge being shorter, as well as distance addons being removed, suggestion 4 just seems like overkill .
0 -
"her blinking downwards was never a problem, you could fake a double back, then when she blinks downwards, start running away."
Your example shows that you do not understand what I am trying to say. You want there to be no consequences when a nurse blinks the wrong distance. Sure thing - let's make Ghostface not get punished when he gets revealed; let him now do a "no you didn't" and have his cloak back.
0 -
Adding voice coms to the base game is not the whole solution. You would be moving the potential survivor skill level up so the killer would need to get buffed to compensate.
0 -
what are you saying... I said right now if a nurse does a downward blink (assuming they're not running omega blink), and the survivor predicts/sees that, they can usually run away and make distance, especially if by your changes, the lunge and distance will be decreased, as well as the distance addons being deleted. What I'm saying is that downward blinking will be even more easier to go against, even without change number 4, hence why we don't need change number 4, since it's overkill.
By making it so that nurse can't blink downwards, that removes almost any counter a nurse can do when someone doubles back. YOU'RE the one asking for barely any counter play. You either did not read what I said or are just purposefully ignored my points for your narrative, but I'm gonna go with the benefit of the doubt and say it's the former.
0 -
I see the problem as : if Billy/LF misses with his chainsaw and hits terrain he gets stunned. Nurse that mistimes a blink should need to wait a second and use a blink for distance to correct. There should be almost zero difference.
"The devs are already balancing around SWF."
We have had this rhetoric for six years. What negative changes were made to SWF to make it "less good" than it is now so it offers no advantage over solo queue?
There aren't any because they do not want to make the survivor mob angry. There are about 20 perks that deal with auras or vision on the killer in some way. You can completely ignore such perks in a SWF because you can relay that information via voice.
Just imagine for a minute if you got all the aura detection perks activated for free as killer in addition to your other perks when playing against a SWF. That would be absolutely silly and you would constantly be bombarded with survivor auras. That's the level of information that is relayed by a good SWF group.
0 -
This video shows a perfect example of how floor blinking is abusive. You see it twice in chases against Jill. It creates a catch 22 scenario where they lose if they run and they lose if they dont. Both options are attempted.
Note: Hens is using no addons.
0
