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They need to start limiting perk combos
On both sides. Have Botany Knowledge? You can't combo it with We'll Make It or anything else. Have CoH? Can't combo is with Bot Know outside of the circle. Playing Killer? You can't combo Thana with Plaything x Pent and Pain Res to just omega slow the game to a crawl and make it unfun. They shook the meta up. Fine. Cool. But now things are becoming grueling on both sides and it's showing. Killers shouldn't be able to just omega slow the game down and have gens not getting done while being in a chase for 7 minutes. And Survivors shouldn't be able to stack healing perks that make a 3 gen slap fest pointless. It's getting to be too much
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Yes, let's kill perk variety. This is a very good idea.
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"Perk variety"
.> just had an update to get rid of a meta in the game only to be thrust into another meta much like every other game
Not to mention. Perk Variety? There is no ######### variety if you just stack perks to do the same ######### thing lmfao That's the literal point of the post to have MORE variety by forcing less combo's that are broken and become overpowered.
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You can't get rid of the meta, only change it. And this patch pretty much accomplished it. Or are you seeing the same perk combos from before?
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Are you getting rekt in games by Botany / We'll Make It combos?
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Botany/CoH is overpowered and I'm surprised no one is talking about it.
16 second heal was apparently not fine, but now it is?
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16 seconds PLUS the time spent looking for the totem PLUS the totem spent putting up the totem PLUS the time spent heading over there once injured PLUS this took two perk slots...
.... or you can just use a medkit.
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All those things (except the 2 Perks slots) were always there. 16 second heals with CoH are overpowered, simple as. Just because you use a total of 5 Perks slots at most to bring that back doesn't nullify its strength.
Med-Kits are overpowered, your point?
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Agreed. We should be able to use more than 1 exhaustion perk and we should be able to use more than 1 endurance perk
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Oh no someone used two perks slots, spent 30 seconds looking for a totem, another 14 to bless it, and then healed in 16 seconds, this is a travesty of the largest proportions, they spent 60 seconds to heal themselves, slower in the end than self care alone, woe is me!
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They are not "always" there. You cannot sit there and try to cite 16 seconds and then casually ignore everything else padding that time to heal that is taking you out of the game.
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Everything was always there. You always to set up the Boon, you had to run to it, you then had to actually heal. Nothing is changed except it now takes 2 Perk slots
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And?
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16 second CoH is overpowered
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I say you're not allowed to drop pallets as survivor or down survivors as killer while you are at it
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Prevent combos ? No. They're what makes the builds smart and variable.
Nerf some general categories (make a "gen slowdown" category and can't put more than 2, for example) ? Maybe.
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Nah, Combos should be allowed. They should design Perks in a way that they are not too strong or annoying when combined. And not limit the freedom of choosing Perks.
What should be done tho is a hard cap on certain things. E.g. instead of nerfing Botany Knowledge with Medkits (which was just stupid, sorry to say that, but running Botany Knowledge and not being able to heal yourself with a brown Medkit out of a Chest is just dumb) they should cap Healing Speed so that you cannot bring CoH, Botany Knowledge, a green Medkit with double Speed to have a 4 second Heal or something like that.
Gen Slowdown also should be capped, there should not be gens which take close to 3 minutes.
Those are things they do, not crippling Perk Combos or Perks itself.
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Why? Why is a 16 second heal that takes 50% of your loadout that only works in one section of the map overpowered?
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Because it nullifies multiple Killer strategies with almost no time investment that can also be used by all 4 Survivors
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So would it stop being overpowered at 17 seconds? Or is there some magical number you have arbitrarily decided where using a fundamental mechanic of the game like "healing" is okay?
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21.3 seconds was fine for a heal that everyone could use with a 14 second time investment that also only required 1 person to bring the Perk.
Anything under 20 seconds and CoH/whatever Perk reduces the self-heal speed needs a nerf
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The base game has changed a lot too. It's all connected
You can't really say that 16 second heal CoH with one perk slot and 80 second gens, more on hit speed boost, less killer recovery time and old DH to back you up if the killer decided to chase you down instantly is the same as 16 heal CoH with 2 perk slots and none of those things.
It's undeniably still strong. You might be right about it being to strong, time will tell
But saying the only difference is a extra perk slot isn't correct
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Do you have anything to give merit to those numbers except that you picked them?
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If they are understanding game enough to the point they can properly limit perk combo they don't need such system in first place.
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FYI nothing stacks with Will Make It as far as I know. So even if you use a medkit or botany with it, it wont change the speed.
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Well, you can't combine Shadowborn with Monitor&Abuse.
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Bruv. The first portion and second portion of your comment directly contradict each other.
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Also 5 perk slots
Old CoH was 16 second heal for everybody with just CoH
For the new CoH to have 16 second heal for everybody you would need one CoH and 4 Bot on everybody
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Coh is still overpowered without any other perks regardless. That’s not a perk combo issue, that’s a coh issue
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I don't think CoH on its own is an issue
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@Aven_Fallen but putting a limit is limiting freedom of choosing perks since certain perk have no effect from your limit.
well part of reason why it hit & run is relevant for killers is because survivor have 5th default exhaustion perk slot when healthy. if you get hit as a survivor, the killer has to recover from their hit and survivor gains 20 seconds of just hold-w which allow them extend the chase for free. this used to be around 24 seconds before patch.
If healing is faster then the time it takes for killer catch-up, then killer is losing from 4vs1 perceptive. you are preventing yourself from going down which add time to your chase and everyone on your team gains 20 seconds on generators. i don't think healing should be time-sink against the killer. the only time sink health-states should give towards killer is survivor looping skills, you know, extra hit.
speed boost shouldn't be for free for survivor through healing. speed boost should only come from exhaustion perks.... like if you want speed boost on health-states, pick overcome. that's exhaustion perk designed for that exact effect and if you don't like this specific speed boost, then there a bunch of other exhaustion perks such as balance landing, Lithe, sprint burst, Smash hit and so on.
you can pretty much have all healing speed in the world as long it doesn't affect the killer from 4vs1 perceptive and add large time sink in the chase. I think its better just nerf health-states rather then making scarce because everyone might as well just be playing no mither at that point if healing is as slow as current self-care(or previous self-care for that matter).
just my opinion on it.
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Takes away creative liberty, no
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Not exactly, in my opinion.
Preventing specific combos would be saying "Plaything + Pentimento is not what was intended and it's annoying for survivors, so you can't equip those two particular perks at the same time, sorry".
I'm talking MAYBE (I don't care enough to develop an in-depth analysis of whether it would be viable or not) making a category that would be "slowdown", where there would be for example Ruin, Pop, Thana, etc, and you can equip whichever combo you like, provided the total amount of "slowdown perks" is 2. (Kind of like survivors have exhaustion perks, where if you equip one the other will most likely be useless).
I don't know the particulars of how that would work and which perks would be classified as such. I don't know either if that would really do anything, since I never use them (at low mmr killers don't need any slowdown to have a great game, in my experience).
I'm just spitballing here.
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That's not quite true, We'll Make It doesn't cap at 100% for all healing, only for the bonus from WMI. You used to be able to unhook 2 survivors in a short time and and have 200% or 300% healing speed because it would stack with itself (back then it applied to healing yourself as well, it was gnarly with Self Care, you could heal yourself in the time it took to kick a pallet), they made it so the speed bonus from We'll Make It is capped at 100%, however that's only for itself. You can use medkits, Botanky, COH with it to get the number higher.
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So because it’s annoying to survivors, killers can’t do it? Ok well it’s annoying to me when survivors bring prove and toolboxes, so how about when one person brings prove, nobody in lobby can bring a toolbox. Because it annoys me.
It’s not the killer’s job to play by the survivor’s rule book or in a way that’s not “annoying” to them. And vice versa.
It is quite literally my job as the killer to inconvenience the survivors as much as possible, to buy time to kill them. And again, vice versa.
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Why not limit perks as a whole? One perk per person and they're all locked at tier 1
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They have done this before.
Survivors used to be able to chain Sprint Burst into Lithe into Dead Hard into Adrenaline. Why shouldn't they? They're perks that are available. Don't dictate what perks people are allowed to run.
Nope. They added Exhaustion so that you can only use one of these perks at any given time. I'm sure survivors at the time were furious that their builds were being creatively restricted, but so what? It's all in the name of balance.
And the latest Endurance perks do something similar, because you can't have Endurance when you're already in Deepwound, this effectively limits them to being used one at a time.
There's no reason why they can't do the same again if other perks end up being too strong together. It might take a bit of creativity to find a way of doing it that isn't simply "these two perks cannot be equipped at the same time", like you can still run multiple Exhaustion perks, only you can only activate them one at a time.
One example I considered before would be second chance perks. DS, BT and Unbreakable each of them are single use perks that essentially undo a failed state for the survivors, whether it's undoing being picked up, undoing being slugged, or undoing being hooked. So what if every survivor inherently only had one 'second chance' per game, and upon using any of these perks that 'second chance' was consumed and the other perks couldn't be used again either.
I don't think this would be necessary now though, considering DS has been nerfed considerably. But it's an example of something similar to Exhaustion that could be implemented, a exclusivity system for perks that shouldn't be chained together or used in combination.
One type of perk that could be restricted in some way is slowdown perks. Thanatophobia, Gift of Pain, Pentimento, Dying Light, etc. Or regression perks, like Call Of Brine, Ruin and Overcharge, or instant regression perks like Jolt, Pain Res, Pop, etc. Stacking four of these is undoubtedly oppressive. But how could they be restricted via simple changes to perk effects?
Well slowdown effects work by afflicting the survivor with a debuff that reduces their repair speed. You could simply apply a maximum limit for this debuff, perhaps something like 45%. Why 45%? Because this limit would also have to be met with a similar and opposite limit to survivors repair speed increase buffs, like Prove Thyself, which is the strongest effect at 45%. At the same time, a 50% limit to self-healing speed increases (and a limit of 100% for altruistic healing) would also make sense, and make stacking multiple buffs similarly pointless unless they're context specific, like We're Gonna Make It and Circle Of Healing, in which case you're simply increasing the number of conditions that would give you that + healing speed, just like how stacking multiple Exhaustion perks gives you multiple options.
Similarly, regression speed could be capped at 200%, which would make stacking Overcharge and Call Of Brine pointless. Meanwhile the instant regression perks, could only apply their effects to gens that aren't already regressing. You can't Pop a gen that's already regressing because you can't kick it, well passively applied regression penalties from Jolt and Pain Res could also not effect gens that are already regressing. This would further penalise survivors who instantly tap gens to try to halt regression, while limiting the amount a killer can reduce gen progress when they're already dominating survivors by scoring back-to-back downs and hooks.
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I was just clarifying what I meant, you don't have to get all agressive about it.
I know all that. Like I said, I was just spitballing. If you're taking it this seriously please vent to someone else.
Have a good day !
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I mean. I agree that i dont like the OC's idea but theres no variety. They killed the meta perks but not the reason why they were needed in the first place so now we just use different, much worse and less effective perks to achieve the same things as before. Hell, they made BT basekit and people still have to bring BT
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I think against strong killers like nurse and blight, it’s fine. Against weaker killers it deletes pressure across the team too quickly imo
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They need to stop allowing people to have fun.
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6 years into the game and I'm surprised there's never been hard caps on speed
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If anything healing speed today is wayyy more fair than back then. Old We'll Make it was literally Old old CoH x10
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Whilst I agree in principle that certain perks should be off limits for certain situations I just don't see any fair way BHVR could do it. Perhaps it could be character centric: for example Blight, in my opinion, should not be allowed slowdown perks with his natural skill off getting around the map ridiculously quickly, but its just not going to happen. Probably for the best because where do you stop?
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