Can someone explain to me why hooks can get permanently destroyed?
I am not kidding when I say that it is probably the third time this week that I had to leave a survivor to bleed for 4 minutes because the only hook on a certain area got destroyed after a survivor died on it.
Like, what is even the point of that mechanic? From my experience, it never gave survivors an advantage since on most cases I can just let them die on the floor which is just a meaningless waste of time.
Also, it makes maps with already bad hook placements (Midwich, RPD, Temple of Purgation and Family Residence) even more bad in that aspect, since if you destroy the only hook on a certain area it makes that whole area a dead zone.
IMO that mechanic needs to go, since it isn't really much useful for both sides and encourages survivors wasting the killer's time.
You can argue that this can be useful to counter scourge hooks, but this mechanic was in the game even before Pinhead.
Edit: One common suggestion is to make it so hooks still get destroyed, but respawn after some time. Seems like a fair enough idea to be honest, since it would please both sides of the discussion to some extent.
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I'm not sure exactly, but it probably has to do with trying to have something in the game that kind of forces people to move around more? 🤷♂️ For instance if you have a hook right in the middle of a 3 gen, and just keep hooking over and over on that one specific hook, it might be beneficial to have that hook wear out eventually and force you to hook a little farther away to give the survivors a little more breathing room. That's just a guess though.
And on a tangent don't forget the basement hooks are indestructible. So whatever the reason there must be one, otherwise they'd have just had all hooks work the same way.
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It's probably meant to give survivors an edge as the game balance starts shifting away from them, but it really just encourages bleedouts and exacerbates bad map design. On most maps it's a total non-factor of a mechanic you'll only notice if everyone dies in the same spot or you got oaked, but on Midwich or RPD, good god.
Pretty sure basement hooks being indestructible is a relic of when hook sabotage was permanent. The idea is that there always had to be at least four hooks on the map.
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Most of the time, survivors are the ones who decide where they get downed. If they constantly go to the hook dead zone, then it's not up to you to move around.
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This reminds me of a game on Midwich where I had to wait for 3 survivors to bleed out since they all got down in the same room and there was only one hook. I always feel like if I am going to Midwich, someone is going to have to bleed out.
It is not a problem exclusive for these maps though, since I had the same problem on a lot of other maps too.
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I mean if they're all gathering SO CLOSE that you can't even get them to another hook, then they aren't anywhere close to a gen or even a dull totem at that.
They're just wasting time or just BEGGING to bleed out.
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I'm in favour of removing this mechanic because I'm tired of being bled out which isn't the killers fault
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I miss old hangman's
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Outdated and unnecessary mechanic that punishes the killer for doing their job and also makes it boring for the survivors if the killer has to bleed them out for 4 minutes because they have no other choice
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it's a relic of old game design, imo. It causes situations where the ideal play is to walk away from your computer and make a sandwich
Post edited by BenOfMilam on11 -
To discourage killers from camping, using one hook constantly throughout a match. It was suppose to be a bandaid fix to camping, which is partially why I think Hangman's trick was reworked. Its sad because survivors can pull off some neat combinations with flip flop but I have to agree that this mechanic is extremely outdated and the hook should respawn after a minute. Unfortunately the devs never thought people would be so toxic to drag out a match for 4 minutes just to get one kill but that's just the DBD way. Everyone is a victim, but ten says they are allowed to play however if they want to because its not against the rules.
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It's a relic from a time when hooks were perma-saboable and so were trapper traps. In the past the idea of perma stripping away killer's resources was not a crazy idea and was baked into core DBD.
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Well let's see maybe pallets should respawn too, I mean if hooks cant be removed why can pallets, killers shouldnt be able to create dead zones where theres nothing to use for defense in a chase.
Seriously though just plan around it, it like how survivors have to plan around 3 gen if you get yourself into that situation its your own fault.
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For one, it doesn't allow to camp the hook, down a survivor after an unsuccessful save attempt, then hook the aforementioned survivor right after the first one died.
It's a bit annoying for "normal" game-play but just let them bleed out if you care.
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Afaik the only time a hook will get destroyed PERMANENTLY is when a survs dies (and that 1 surv perk which can break the hook). Not saying that hook spawns on certain maps (i look at you, Midwich) and saboing is fine, but there was actually a time when hooks NEVER respawned after saboing.
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It's to make sure survivors that go to comp corner that just lost a hook can force you to bleed them out instead of getting hooked after everyone else are dead.
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Breakdown lasts 3 minutes
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I feel like this can easily be solved by just making the hook still be destroyed but eventually respawn. In fact I think it's good that the hook is destroyed for the reason you said; it just shouldn't stay that way forever.
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I remember a while back when Breakdown was bugged and permanently broke hooks, and teams were running no mither + boil over + flip flop, and would stick to one portion of the map and try to turn your life into a living hell.
I mean you could end up killing them all, but it was just a brutal battle of wills, for no good reason.
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Indeed. It feels like a good fix. Maybe this should be put in the suggestions at some point.
edit: maybe OP should add the change suggestion at the top so it can be discussed.
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Well, if they are all down in a hook dead zone I know that they can't work on a gen. What's more, they are all gonna die, but the problem is that it is just gonna take a long time and there is the problem. It is just a time waste mechanic.
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I haven't seen 1 good argument defending this mechanic, although believe me, there are people who will die on a hill defending it. I've already seen one such reply in this post. Basically their terrible points are narrowed down to this:
-The killer camping the same hook/area is too strong.
-The killer should be more strategic with where they hook people.
-It helps punish 'unfair' 3-gen situations.
-The killer should have run Iron Grasp or Agitation.
All of them include shifting the blame onto the killer, never the survivors or the bad game mechanics.
If the killer wants to camp, they're gonna camp, and destroying hooks permanently does not solve this, but it does make the game unbearable for everyone else who doesn't camp. A killer, on top of everything else they have to keep track of, should not have to keep in mind where exactly they're hooking someone at any point in the match; they should just hook someone on the nearest hook and keep playing. To suggest otherwise implies that the killer needs to camp/proxy-camp every hook, or needs to think about late game hook spawns just in case they make it that far and have to sacrifice someone on one earlier in the match. It's simply ridiculous to ask them to do that.
And I get it: 3-genning, especially with pallet dead zones, is apparently this unbeatable strategy that killers can simply create 99% of the time through smart play /s, but again, the survivor going down in a killer's 3-gen is very much their fault and they should be punished for that, not given a free wiggle off because of bad hook spawns.
And asking killers to run perks, Iron Grasp and/or Agitation, just to get a hook, the thing that they have to do to win the game? What is wrong with you people? That's all I gotta say.
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How can you even make that comparison? Hooks respawning, or never getting destroyed at all, is a good idea because it's the killer's objective that they have to do to win. Pallets are important for survivors' survival, but they escape through doing gens and the exits, so why would pallets get respawns? Especially with god pallets like shack pallet still being rampant in the game, like are you kidding me? And the "planning around it" plan falls off as well, because there will be numerous games where this mechanic fortunately never comes into play, so why would you plan around something, specifically a game mechanic, that's not even ensured to affect you? At least you recognize that getting 3-genned is the survivors' fault, as opposed to it being some (alleged) uncounterable killer thing. You just can't apply that to hooking people, which is way more simple and essential to killer gameplay.
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Who is OP btw?
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And lose out on my rightfully deserved sacrifice points? That's exactly what I want to do.
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That would be you (Original Poster), if you agree with the idea of course.
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Oh ok, fair enough.
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Omg, imagine if pallets automatically reset on The Game.
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You can choose to crawl towards a hook so you aren't bled out, just so you know that XD
I'm kind of indifferent to this argument overall. It benefits me when I play killer and can't remember if the survivor I'm carrying is dead or not. Saves me a scourge hook and let's me use strong hooks infinitely. I don't think it would hurt me as survivor really, besides the fact that certain trap killers or killers who excel at proxy camping might have more of an edge. Wouldn't be opposed to having this change and seeing how it feels.
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I don't think i ever had a problem with this mechanic and i've never seen anybody have a problem with it. I happens to me maybe once a week that someone is able to struggle free on midwich because of a destroyed hook, bu that's completely fine imo. But on most maps this doesn't even change anything, so i really don't see a problem with this mechanic.
Also i dont see why you would have to let them bleed out? Because if it's not the last survivor you can't let them on the ground until they bleed out because they're gonna be picked up, unless you camp them while they are downed. And if it's the last survivor, what are they gonna do? You have 2 options. You try to reach a hook, and if they struggle free, they have a chance of getting the hatch, which i don't mind, quite contrary, i give the last surv the hatch as often as i can. And if you rather want the 4k, you can leave them on thw ground, go close the hatch, and then pick them up. Only if you then don't find them, they'll bleed out, and then it's their own fault.
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That’s not what ends up happening though. There are many games, that when 1 hook is gone, there aren’t any other hooks in range, and some survivors will purposely run to this area if they are about to get knocked down, because they know the killer can’t hook them.
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I so often have motioned via head nodding and slashing the air to a not so distant hook, for example if a survivor deliberately went down in the area right before the exit gates on The Game and there is no hook on the raised platform next to it. And strangely enough most survivors respond via shaking a no and bleeding out, wasting everyone 3-4min of their life, instead of just accepting that they lost and working together with the killer for the benefit of them all. but be careful with calling this out and name it griefing, some die on that hill, defending this practise as "not rolling over just because the killer would have it that way". Oh well, egos will probably always be bigger then lofty ideals.
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Yeah, if someone complains about being bled out, but refuses to move towards a hook OR gets picked up and wiggles out but returns to the same unhookable spot, it's on them. It's totally up to the survivor if they want to be bled out due to a unhookable position situation.
The only time I will "abuse" a spot that's hard to hook is either if I have perks that could help me (unbreakable/soul guard/boil over/flip flop) or if it's mid-game and my team needs time with me stalling the killer. If my whole team is slugged or dead, I'm crawling to a hook to get hooked once hatch is closed. I am the survivor who will start crawling around hoping for hatch, but once that dream is gone, I'll crawl to a hook or an exit gate and hope the killer can find me as I AFK.
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How about hook management on your own? Its not that hard.
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That obviously happens, I’m just guessing why the devs put it in place. 🤷♂️
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The mechanic itself isn't a problem and thematically makes sense considering the animation of a survivor getting sacrificed.
The issue is hook spawns, particularly on large maps. For example, if the hook in the main hall of RPD gets destroyed and you down someone by the exit gate, it's physically impossible to reach another hook without Agitation or Iron Grasp.
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Wow dude, I can't hook immediately and they might wiggle out so I gotta Slug and let them bleed out has got to be the most pathetic take I'll hear today.
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Is it so important for you to get your 4K ?
You can try to hook the survivor on another hook, and if he escape by hatch you have 3K its enough.
Letting survivor bleeding on the floor is toxic and selfish.
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Hooks getting destroyed after a sacrifice is a way for the devs to make sure the killer isn't staying in one area, especially if it's strong. Like if you get multiple hook stages on a single hook it either means that area is strong or the survivors are throwing themselves.
But if a survivor sees that you are unable too hook them in an area because a hook is gone and they choose to stay there that isn't your fault. Bleeding them out is what you can only do and so let them. They wanna be a jerk, let them crawl on the dirt.
But if they crawl to a working hook then I'll hook them. But if they wanna comp corner all the time....I'll bleed them out even if they crawl to a hook. I'll spam my power over them especially if they're the last one alive. And oh lord you better believe I'm teabagging them as ghostface.
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I thought they did it because the killer experience is that everything has terrible quality of life, and is full of inconveniences.
It’s the same reason why killers have terrible FoV, an aim assist that robs killers of hits and causes the killer to fight with their camera angle, super loud chase music that drowns out important sounds, footstep noises that are still inconsistent and buggy, and a sound system where sounds are based on line of sight and survivor sounds can get muffled by a survivor standing behind a paper thin unenclosed wall.
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Bad player issue detected.
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If the survivor wants to get hooked, they can crawl to a hook, or not wiggle if I pick them up. Otherwise, it’s their own fault if I leave them to bleed out. They chose their fate.
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Nah, i surely dont play killer while its so busted.
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Right because there isnt any rng to gen/pallet spawns, or what map you go to controlling the number of resources available, and you cant do anything about a 3 gen if the killer starts protecting it from the start. Resource management is part of the game.
Well survival is essential to survivor gameplay, which is counter balanced by hooking survivors as you pointed out. If you can create pallet deadzones then hook deadzones should also exist because both are forms of resource management.
Sometimes maps spawn with very powerful 3 gens and sometimes they dont have one or are addressed early accidentally by where you spawn. Either way its the survivors job to pre-assess and deal with that, much like it is with knowing the area your in and what resources are available in a chase, I dont get to scream foul and not get hit because i didnt know someone else used the pallet already in a loop I'm running to, which is actually much less fair than a killer creating a deadzone where they cant hook anyone because they did it to themself.
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You are right absolutely busted on the game, but on shelter woods where you can have as few as 8 pallets and then almost nothing but deadzones its actually not that unfair of an idea.
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Shelter woods and your done. Also not if teammates already did that before my first chase. And hook deadzones are completely on the killer always.
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As it is, it simply encourages slugging. I had a game some months ago where a survivor ran to a dead zone where there were no hooks anywhere near due to the hook destruction mechanic and he was literally immune to being hooked. I tried to pick him up and he struggled, so I had no choice but to leave him to bleed while I looked for the hatch. And then we both had to wait for the EGC for literally no reason.
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Well isnt that the pot calling the kettle black. So both 3 gens and hook deadzones are the survivor fault, how does that work exactly?
Survivors choose what gens they do in what order, killers do the same with hooks.
Survivors choose where the chase goes, because killers cant zone them into/out of certain areas? Even though killers do this with pallet deadzones all the time?
Maybe stop trying to blame survivors for your shortcomings as a killer and move on.
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I disagree while the surrvivor can try to influence where they go down, the killer decides when and where that happens, as well as where they carry them to get hooked, now another survivor can influence that with a sabo forcing a drop, but the point still stands that the killer 100% has the control in that situation.
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Or you try to hook them and if they wiggled you chase them again
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Just as an example, I lost a kill yesterday on Family Residence as Twins. Basically I used the fact that a survivor can't leave the trial with Victor to get them down at the exit gate. However, since a Bill had died on the only hook on the area, I could not hook the last survivor and had to let them go. It wasn't even like I wanted that hook to get destroyed in the first place, it was the only hook on that area and I couldn't hook the Bill anywhere else either.
I had a similar issue a while back on the Temple of Purgation as Dredge, where the area on the back of the main building had only one hook and it was already used on a Steve.
So, basically, on the best case scenario this mechanic encourages letting the survivor bleed out for 4 minutes on the ground, which is a waste of time, and on the worst case, it gives an advantage making uncounterable scenarios based on RNG.
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