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So still no nerfs to camping and tunneling with the new update
So the ptb patch notes just released, and sadly we are not getting any nerfs to camping or tunneling, yet again. These cheap and skillless strategies will continue to be way to effective for the little effort required, and survivors continue to be at the mercy of killers to not camp and tunnel.
I wonder how long BHVR is going to not address this issue. Killer queue times will continue to be problematic most likely, and understandibly so. Who wants to go against such cheap and unfun strategies?
Please, BHVR, do something against these strategies. Killers were buffed in numerous ways, and are more viable now in general. Now it's the survivors time to get something in return. You have to nerf camping and tunneling properly, so they aren't the go to easy way out strategies for killers anymore, now that killers have been buffed. It's ridiculous.
I do not know any other online game that has such cheap, unfun, and skillless strategies be so effective. Can't even think of anything that comes close to this. It's ridiculous.
I am really hyped about this new chapter, and can not wait to play Wesker. But the prospect of 10 minute killer queue times just to play Wesker really dampens my excitement to an extent.
Comments
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Reassurance is a better version of Kinship that could actually be meta. If the killer is hard camping you can extend a hook state by 3 minutes.
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I'm sorta on the fence about this. Instead of coming up with basekit options like they were supposed to they are having perks fix the problem instead.
Every new change has made perks solve the issues instead.
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Another thing I am worried about. Please do not let this one perk be the BHVR's anweser to camping. Camping and tunneling shouldn't only be manageable by survivors when using certain perks.
We need basekit measures that properly help with tunneling and camping. 10 second haste and endurance effect, increasing each hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds, and removing hook grabs, would be such important changes, and I can't see those changes taking too long to work on.
And then further perks can help counter camping and tunneling more effectively, that's fine. But they shouldn't be the solution for terrible strategies. I thought the devs wanted more perk variety? That's certainly not working out yet.
It's getting so tiresome to still see no proper nerfs to camping and tunneling after so many years, even now that killers were buffed.
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They have to be really careful with basekit changes that change the functionality of the game. Anything that prevents camping in extreme cases also prevents camping in valid situations. There's really not much they could do, besides removing hook grabs, which is a pretty drastic move but would limit campers to a hook trade instead of a double hook.
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Exactly. That's exactly what they did with killer when they got their buffs, making them a little less dependent on perks. And now they are doing exactly the opposite with survivors again.
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What are valid situations for camping though? Any valid situation I can think of wouldn't really be affected too much by increasing the hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds, and removing hook grabs. If survivors are swarming a hooked survivor, that means they are not on gens, which already now take 10 seconds longer to complete. And you can just go for survivors swarming hooks and still do lots of damage.
There are easy baseline changes that would not be problematic what so ever, now that killers have been buffed.
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Exactly. And what's more annoying is that they were supposed to do something about it with the killer buffs. But they were inadequate
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Camping and Tunnelling should absolutely be something that is countered by survivors playing as a team.
Regardless of how 'fun' it is, it IS a valid tactic killers can use, with a cost-benefit relationship. The problem is that cost is currently too low. But that cost should always be in terms of what survivors are capable of doing as a team while you're focused purely on camping.
It could be gen times, maybe repairs go faster if the killer is camping, but then you need to be careful about what conditions are used to 'detect' camping. Which I think is something that could work, it just has to be done right. After all the best counter to camping will always be "just do gens" they just have to make it so just doing gens is definitely worth it and definitely counters camping, which it currently falls a bit short at.
Perks like this are pretty good counters, because they're used by survivors, who provide the context. The survivors choose when the killer is camping. Basically if they can get close to the hook but can't get the save, then they extend it considerably.
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Obviously, the perk will be useful in some cases. But in many trials, it will be useless, so I just don't see that many people bringing it as one of their four perks (I guess highly-coordinated teams might include it among their pool of perks).
BHVR could absolutely implement some core-game mechanics that would help considerably with these fundamental issues, yet they always stick effects on perks instead.
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All the gens are repaired, which means the killer has no other objectives to defend except the hooked survivor. This end game camping is the most commonly accepted 'valid' use of camping, basically 'anything goes' at endgame, it's completely fair.
But there's also many situations in which 'camping' as would be possible for the game to detect, is in fact cause by survivors:
Survivors who run straight towards the hook after you've hooked a survivor. You have no choice but to go for them, they just jumped right in front of you.
You're chasing a survivor, and they run you back to the hook, what are you supposed to do? Leave them alone to get the unhook?
Survivors looping you around the hook. One of the stupidest things a survivor can do, but they still do it.
Two survivors flanking you, getting ready to go for the unhook, as you're hooking. You've seen both of them, you know they're not on gens, you have no reason to leave the hook. They've basically forced you into a camping position.
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Yeah they do. Unless you enjoy your killer queue times.
It's insane to me how some people think it's fine for killers to get a bunch of baseline buffs, but survivors shouldn't even get anything against the cheap and insanely unfun strategies that are camping and tunneling. These strategies are so ridiculous, and so unfun for survivor, they need to be addressed.
Unless, again, you want those juicy killer queue times.
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There's literally a new perk to add 30 ish seconds on a cool down
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Yes it most certainly does. It's way to easy to do so with the increasing gen times and other slowdown perks
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Have you even read my suggestions? Or any of my comment at all? I haven't even suggested a mechanic that detects when the killers is close to a hooked survivor. Simply increasing the hook phase duration to 70 seconds and removing hook grabs would be a nice start.
And it wouldn't be affected by any of those scenarios. It would simply give survivors a bit more time to unhook, which nerfs camping. And it would be fine because killers already received a bunch of buffs that would compensate for longer hook phases.
I even mentioned that last scenario with survivors swarming the hooked survivor. And in fact, in every scenario you mentioned here, you can just go for the survivors that are going for the unhook. Especially if a survivor is throwing themselves in front of you, you just injure them, they unhook, and you down the survivors that unhooked instead.
And if you are getting looped close to a hooked survivor for ages, that's a you problem.
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Great, another perk bandaid fix. I see the perk variety will really increase.
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So what are perks supposed to do, besides give you a particular advantage in some way?
What perks would you like to run if you weren't 'forced' to run other perks?
Would you just go all in on gen speeds? because then you're forcing killers to run slowdown perks.
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"And if you are getting looped close to a hooked survivor for ages, that's a you problem."
Survivors literally dictate the path of a chase dude. I can't chase someone somewhere they're not already going.
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The only situations where you want to camp are when survivors are swarming a hooked survivor. And in that case you can still just do damage to those survivors, if you are a semi-competent killer that is.
They need to increase the hook phase duration from 60 to 70 seconds, and remove hook grabs. That would be a great start. Then also increase the haste and endurance status effect duration after being unhooked to 10 seconds, or give survivors a sprint burst during the 5 seconds after being unhooked. That would nerf camping and tunneling properly, while not making killers too weak suddenly, even if they have good reason to camp.
The other situation is obviously end game, but survivors definitely should have a better chance of getting a 4 man escape than they have right now. Killers also have a fair chance to get a 4k.
These changes need to happen, or killers will continue to enjoy their killer queue times, which is a shame, because I am really looking forward to playing Wesker.
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There is no way to remove camping/tunneling without removing killer agency.
You can hold onto hope for Year 7, but it might be time to realize that devs aren't going to force players to/prevent players from doing X.
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6 meters is way too short of a distance. Defeats the purpose of the perk if you have to reward the camp to punish the camp. Needs to be 12 or 16 meters.
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For ages. For. Ages.
It's the duration that's the problem, not the location. If they're using one or two cells for over a minute, YOU are doing something wrong as killer.
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6 meters is bigger than you think, but I think 8 meters would be enough.
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So I guess I drop chase to go for someone else? Even when they're right next to the hook?
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Even 16 meters (Kinship) can be risky against a good killer. 6-8 meters is completely free if the hook is in a deadzone against a Bubba/Billy/Huntress/Slinger/Plague/etc or a good Nurse. I just think that distance is going to throw games instead of help against killers that camp well. Could end up being a completely counterproductive perk.
If I see the hook bar flash in 1st stage, I have an automatic 1 for 1 at worst on Nurse. Or I slug and immediately tunnel. There's only one perk that can pause 1st stage and that distance narrows it down a ton in terms of survivor location.
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Didn't you say killer buffs were too much and needs to be reverted back but killers actually did need those buffs ti compete agains't good survivors but now when something which really is too strong is asked to be nerfed you are agains't it?
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You can limit how effective they are at different stages of the game.
Have changes for the beginning, middle and end of the trial.
There should be no reason to camp and tunnel in the beginning.
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12 or 16 meters would probably allow survivors to activate it through a floor or ceiling, on in indoor maps from unconnected rooms that the killer can't easily reach from the hooked survivor. I thought the plan was the survivor has to risk themselves to increase the hook timer, instead of being able to safely do this where the killer can't react to it?
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I play solo survivor and I'm not forced to run any of those.
My solo builds at the moment include:
Prove Thyself, We're Gonna Make It, Lithe, Soul Guard, Tenacity, Flip Flop, Detective's Hunch, Situational Awareness, Blast Mine, and sure maybe Kindred now and then.
I never get any value out of Off The Record or Deliverance.
You don't need four Reassurance's every game, just one every now and then to deter camping.
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But what is the point of camping counterplay if you have to play into the camp to counterplay it? It's like running at someone who is holding a sword. 16 meters is moderate risk. 6 meters is potentially throwing the game. It's bad survivor play to be that close to a hook by yourself when a killer is camping.
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It shouldn't be too difficult. We can probably dictate the speed of the game by the number of gens completed.
Beginning could be 5 gens left
Middle is from 4 to 2 gens left
Endgame is 1 and 0 gens left.
You can probably also factor in number of hooks but it could use more thinking. But this should be the gens should be the foundation.
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I think it’s supposed to be countering killers that are trying to facecamp so they can tunnel that survivor off of the hook. The new perk shouldn't be a safe way to punish proxy camping, because BHVR said proxy camping is fine.
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Edit: Gave incorrect information. Reassurance works for both hook states.
Post edited by GoshJosh on0 -
Reverting Ds would nerf tunneling but those gens speed are needed so you have more time to chase survivors but they could make them back 80s or lower if survivors would get secondary objective to find part to complete gen. Camping needs to be nerfed other way for example increasing hook state timer to 80s and removing healthy survivor hook grabs.
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You can usually kinda tell it if gens will start to pop and usually it's just killers getting down in first 20s and starting to facecamp at 5 gens.
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No, you just finish the chase. Unless you've been swinging like a madman, you're at bloodlust 3 and you don't need to even play intelligently anymore.
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Overwatch: sym torb defense
Call of duty vanguard: that little machine that can run you over without knowing it's there
Any call of duty: sitting in a house with a claymore
Ect ect
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And this surprises you because...? It's BHVR
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No it works on both hook stages.
The perk states "If they are in the struggle phase, it also pauses Struggle skill checks"
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Agreed. These are all situations I will prox a hook. Last night had a game where I hooked literally right next to a 95% gen. I proxed until that gen lost a good chunk, and secured a second stage before I left. Ended up winning me the game. Sorry not sorry. 😅
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I'm always hopeful things can change for the better
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Kill rates in high MMR would probably plummet without camping and tunnelling lol
It'd be fun to see what would happen if it was removed, I think it would be an eye opening experience for a lot of people.
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See that's the neat part, they don't
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Shattered hope
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tunneling does not need nerf, camping even less. The problem is that survs are allergic to kindred and play awfully.
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Just another case of BHVR bandaid fixing their issues sigh.
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Ah, I thought I read differently on the leak. Unless they changed it for the PTB. Thanks!
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Hook grapping only works agains't average and new survivors so it being removed would be good thing. It never works agains't good survivors unless you get lucky. I think it need to be less punishing for casual survivors as I don't want this game to turn to be overly competive and tunneling and camping should be less viable. I would make grim embrace basekit for killer but only working if you hook 4 different survivors as your first hooks.
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Dude. The problem with camping is that it's so easy to perform as a new killer, but not easy to counter as a new survivor. So even more reason to remove it if it doesn't even work against good survivors? Or why would you want to keep it?
These strategies will have to be nerfed, if BHVR ever wants to retrun to balanced queue times.
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You have to be kidding right?
Let's just forget the fact that you are completely ignoring the suggestions I have made to actually nerf camping, and that they have nothing to do with detecting a killer nearby a hooked survivor.
Yes, a survivor can run towards a hooked survivor. But then, believe it or not, if you do not suck as a killer, you should be able to down them quickly enough, or force them to another loop, further away from the hooked survivor.
Not that hard to do, and that is what I meant. If a survivor is trying to loop you at a hooked survivor, just injure or down them.
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There's a 3 gen I want to keep ?
How do increasing the hook phase duration to 70 seconds and removing hook grabs nerf killer in any way so they can't defend their 3 gen anymore? Please explain, cause I am really curious. The idea is to nerf camping, it wouldn't effect your 3 gen. You could still defend 3 gens perfectly fine, but the hooked survivor would have a bit more of a chance to escape the hook.
Maybe the survivor got greedy for a flashie save. Instead of running away. Now I have 2 hooks within 10 meters. I don't care how unfun you find the situation.
So you are describing the situation of having 2 survivors hooked closeby? How would a 70 second hook phase and no hook grabs make that so weak? You'd still have the upperhand easily, because two freaking survivors are on the hook. It would simply help survivors in that situation a bit, but as a killer, you would still be dominating that scenario. Even with much crazier suggestions you would.
You as the survivor caused that situation and should be punished for it. Not get off Scott free. Not from teleporting hooks. Not from paused timers. Not from any half assed suggestion that's been thrown out. I can go on with the situations and when it makes sense. But your notion of "only hook swarming and end game !!" Are completely wrong imo
I am at a loss of words honestly. You don't seem to care for survivors fun at all.
So one mistake should just screw over the entire survivor team? Then we really should nerf killers back to how they were before the patch. You know, why shouldn't they be punished for a few mistakes?
A survivor can mess up and get downed without the game being lost immediately for survivors. One or two mistakes shouldn't mean the survivor now can not play the rest of the match anymore. What even is that logic?
Killer queue times have increased a lot, so I still am convinced BHVr will have to do something. And nerfing camping and tunneling is by far the most obvious solution. Camping and tunneling are the cheapest gameplay strategies I have ever seen in an online game. Your justifications won't change that.
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