The 7.0.0 Patch Notes We Need | Addressing Camping, Tunneling & Slugging
Comments
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You're right. It should linger a certain amount of time after the killer leaves.
As for breaking the game, trying to code multiple variables that happen at the same time and location can be wonky. I see it when I try to code an excel spreadsheet with 2 different parameters. Basically a nested variable is never easy to code and that's what this would boil down to.
A better way of explaining for me would be:
Formulas:
- If(variable, do this, otherwise do this)
- killer in(numeric value)
- survivor in (numeric value)
- do (variable)
- variable (can be anything limited in the system)
If (killer in(range), do(stop hook counter), if (survivor in(range), do(variable), do(variable), do(variable)))
I mean it could work but I don't know what variables are programmed into the game already and as I said, nested if statement codes are difficult and end up breaking things.
I hope that helped explain what I meant. It was honestly difficult trying to explain it.
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Haha no worries, I got your point but coding games/servers is a bit different.
So the solution for them here is an infinite loop that checks the area around an hook where a survivor is placed.
Even with something like while(survivorIsHooked()) whatever language it may be, you can easily then check if and what entities are near a certain place inside that while block. How fast the block loops is up to them but it could probably do the check once per second which ends up not being heavy on the server at all.
Hope that makes sense.
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I agree, remove the ability to work on generators while the killer is in chase with someone else, it's not fun that the killer can't push them off because they're in chase :v Who cares about balance or strategies, fun above all right?
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The argument of survivors don't camp and tunnel killers is non-sensical and just shows your ill faith in the discussion, with no actual interest of understanding the concept and game design. Get you out in the first 5 mins? Euhm... guess you never actually met a good squad, survivors can end the game in 5 mins and so yeah... they can get you out of the game in that time span, because they finish it. Acting like survivors aren't able to control the pace of the game as much as killers is nonsense, they have to play together, they are a team, they are with 4 and yes the killer can kill while the survivors cannot. Survivors have as much to say in the game as a killer, just they are with 4 so... it is a team effort compared to the team of 1, who relies purely on their own actions. The concept is that both sides have influence on the game and its length, while yes it being a 4v1 PvP game.
Not allowed to play a match? You do realize that doing gens, hanging on a hook, healing, saving people, looping and opening gates, etc. are part of the survivors playing the game. If as a survivor you saw the killer, you were chased, got hit, got chased some more, got hit again, picked up then you wiggle and end up on the hook, dangle on the hook, struggle on the hook and die... You played the game. Like if you don't like being on a hook, healing, doing gens... you don't actually like playing survivor. The premise that the killer is denying you to play the game is false, you just don't like the gameplay of that match. The stars didn't align and you lost. It is a PvP game, you will lose at times and that is ok. Sometimes you get dominated, sometimes it is a close match, sometimes you will dominate... that is the nature of PvP games and all those outcomes are expected and good for the game. You cannot have the highs without the lows.
Killers force powerful playstyles on survivors? So, you do get that it is a powerful move that a killer can make, it can be punished, it can be outplayed, it is strong and you want to remove it... without anything in return? You state you play both sides? Not properly if you don't understand the game design, pressure generated and how that isn't anywhere nearly the same as a single health state compared to a survivor on the hook, a hook state or even a kill. People can already trade as you claim in your segment of it is "not free", it isn't something you introduced it just requires the survivors to do the correct play and if they mess up or don't respond in time go there etc it has a cost which you want to remove for free.
You clearly don't understand when it is appropriate to camp and tunnel. Do some people rely to heavily on these tactics sure, but acting like they aren't intrinsic parts of the games design and balance as it currently stands and that just gutting the whole premise without any adjustments on the killer end. You claim it only affects those who love camping an tunneling mindlessly, really shows the lack of understanding of the more competitive, come back moves and how those that play to win approach the game. Nor does it account for the punishment of bad plays on the survivors end by the killer. If you cannot identify and understand when it is the correct play ever, than you live in a fantasy world. On top of that it ignores the potential that survivors can do with these mechanics you suggest when they play competitively.
There isn't actually anything wrong with wanting to shift the powerful moves that a killer can make, but in order to create a shift... if you care about balance you have to make other aspects more attractive, better, more powerful to compensate for the drop in power that you want to create in those areas that bother you and that is what is missing. That is why it is lopsided and unrealistic. They get stuff for free, because you can already go in and save someone off the hook and trade for a hit, if you play it correctly as a team of survivors.
You feel rarely frustrated as a killer? Having fun with a style you like, does not mean you are winning the matches nor does it invalidate those that do get frustrated, are maybe less experienced, play to win and will pull out tactics and strategies to recover from a situation where they are behind regardless of what the other side does. The idea that because you don't feel a certain way doesn't mean other people don't. I personally rarely get frustrated if a killer camps or tunnels me, does that now mean that those feelings you have are invalid?
You enjoy playing it when the stars align? Yet it is a PvP game, if the stars align for you that most likely means it is not at all doing so for your opponent and guess what they need a way to snowball back into the game. That is the thing with DBD, it is a snowball game; it can go horribly wrong or very good. It can shift from one side to the other quickly, but I guess in those games you just throw in the towel instead of using tactics you disapprove of to one up your opponents.
The game is a 4v1 PvP game, the concept is that the killer if they really want to kill 1 player they are going to be able to. They are more powerful after all than a single survivor... because they are 4. The moment you try to address the balance of the game where a single survivor can compete directly with the killer and it becomes impossible for a killer to throw the match for a single person, because lets be clear if the team plays well that is what happens than the game isn't balanced properly anymore.
Do solo survivors need more help to be able to make informed choices? Yes for sure. Should DS be buffed back to 5 seconds, Yes for sure as 3 seconds is way to little. Could they expand the hook timers to compensate for gens taking longer now, yes they can. Yet what I state here are minor tweaks, what you suggest is to fundamentally change the design without any clear understanding on why those choices are the correct play and why other ones are at a determent in comparison or how the risk/reward of those plays don't even come close to camping or tunneling. There is a reason why people make those plays and it isn't to prevent others from playing the game, it is to win in a PvP game.
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I think it's a joke because you want to take 3 of a killer's most powerful tools and not just nerf them but completely destroy them.
There are still too many scenarios where killers just can't play nice and hope it works out for them, that's just throwing the game.
Sometimes the killer spawns in the center of the map and the survivors spawn spread around the outside of the map (it's even worse on huge maps like Mother's Dwelling) and 3 generators pop before the killer gets their first hook. With your changes the killer might as well just throw in the towel if this happens. Being able to do some camping, slugging and gasp even tunneling might be required to come back from such a set back. Especially for a Clown or Freddy.
You also fail to see how this would be abused. Let's say the killer leaves hooked Feng to patrol but sees dirty Nea running in to get that rescue, but Nea has a step on him and gets the rescue and gets injured. Then Feng can body block for Nea for 60 seconds. The first 10 she can tank a hit with your base kit Borrowed Time and another 50 seconds where Feng goes down but the killer has to wait out or eat your base kit Decisive Strike. If the killer decides to slug Feng to chase Nea and Nea doesn't go down quick, Feng picks herself up on her own while the other 2 survivors could stay on generators. Or even worse while Nea is on the hook the killer returns to the pick up Feng and Feng springs up in his face with another 10 seconds of endurance! Nea just totally farmed Feng in front of the killer and your changes mean she can get away with it. Almost all unhooks, even blatantly in the face of most killers, would become barely an inconvenience.
"Just farm me I got BT, DS, Unbreakable!"
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the best counter that still allows a killer agency is information -- we need an indication that a killer is near a hook for a period of time or proxying near it to be able to play around it. we need to know if someone is going for an unhook and a way to tell if that person got intercepted. this would make a huge difference without touching the hook timers.
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@Kalinikta I understand your point of view and that to create the change I want we need to balance things out. Reading @ByeByeQ last comment I understand how heavily the changes as-are may hinder the Killer's gameplay. The truth still remains that something has to be done in regards to these powerful plays that Killers can make. Maybe the post isn't exactly what's necessary but it's food for thought, it always is in this section. No one can pretend to know what BHVR intends, all we can do is assume and help them understand what we feel is wrong and needs change.
Now, back to the changes. You're absolutely right that these changes favor Survivors, but that was always the intent. I can't sit here and tell you how we would change the game for Killers or anything else in order to accomodate these changes. I can tell you it's tiring seeing games end faster than they started because of these base game issues. Killers should not have the ability to force you out of a game and I stick by that. Do we need 6 gens? Do we need more gen time? Does Killer need a better base kit in general? No idea, haven't really thought about that as what really makes me go nuts is what I describe in the post. BHVR can use all of this feedback as they want and come up with what they think it's best for the game.
@ByeByeQ I see your point now, makes a lot of sense but there's an underlying issue with what you're saying. Using powerful mechanics as comeback shouldn't even have to be a thing right? Camping and tunneling cannot be a go-to when something goes wrong for the Killer or just because they feel like it. It's 100% true that my changes wouldn't fix that issue or might even make it worse if nothing else is done but that was never the message I intended to convey. For those changes to be made a lot would have to change, there's no denying that.
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How can you state this: "Killers should not have the ability to force you out of a game and I stick by that." You realize this just translate into: You believe that killers should not have the ability to kill survivors.
This shows why would want drastic changes to the powerful gameplay aspects of killers, without a single consideration or adaptation in another section to compensate. You aren't trying to create a balanced fun experience for both sides, at least not in the premise of the games core design. This is a 4v1 game, yet you want to make it that survivors can stand their ground in the 1v1 and that inherently is an impossible proposition if the team of 1 is ever to stand a chance.
Are you sure that you enjoy dead by daylight, the core game play loop is that: Survivors try to power the gates and escape, while the Killer tries to kill and remove all the survivors before that happens.
You don't get that the survivors start the match in the best spot for them, you don't believe that the killer should be able to make a come back? Therefore everything will be decided within the first 1 to 2 mins without the ability to come back for the killer if the survivors play well and the killer should do what at that point, chase them for the 'fun of the survivors'?
"For those changes to be made a lot would have to change, there's no denying that." Yet you are incapable of indicating where the other changes would need to be made. As we are simply pointing out that your suggestions in isolation just destroys the base game balance. It isn't tweaking the game, it is fundamentally changing it.
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@Kalinikta Don't twist my words. When I say that it's literally what I mean. Not a Killer killing a survivor during normal gameplay. I mean a Killer whose focus since he caught a sniff of you is to hunt you down and get you out of the game - and the game just started. This comes down to what we consider normal gameplay and I guess our opinions differ there so let's leave it in the open.
This shows why would want drastic changes to the powerful gameplay aspects of killers, without a single consideration or adaptation in another section to compensate.
This shows absolutely nothing as I don't work for BHVR, I have my own job on which I already have to spend my days thinking about how to perform it the best I can. I merely came here to provide feedback for one part of the game that me and apparently a lot of other people are concerned about. How they use it and however it else would influence the game is not really my job now is it? Feel free to give it a thought though and let them know.
I'll just leave with this: The fact that you think it is acceptable to camp and tunnel though and deem it core game play is exactly why I made this post in the first place. Your points are good in some ways but very twisted in others.
Anyways, I'm done for the day, and probably for the rest of the post.
The idea has been passed on.
My job is done.
Peace.
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How am I twisting your words, you stated: "Killers should not have the ability to force you out of a game and I stick by that.". The manner in which killers force you out of a game is by killing you. That is what that means, the time frame in which they do so is dependent on the performance of the killer compared to the the performance of the survivor and their team. Each of your suggestions and comebacks are based on some ideological idea of normal game play, while not understanding what creates game play. In your fantasy world where the stars always align, without considering the humans that actually will play the game.
I have even stated some tweaks that I would like to have to actually make these tactics less strong. Let me repeat them for you, because clearly you are having issues with a civil discussion that seemingly by starting up the conversation would imply you wanted to have:
"Do solo survivors need more help to be able to make informed choices? Yes for sure.
Should DS be buffed back to 5 seconds, Yes for sure as 3 seconds is way to little.
Could they expand the hook timers to compensate for gens taking longer now, yes they can.
Yet what I state here are minor tweaks, what you suggest is to fundamentally change the design without any clear understanding on why those choices are the correct play and why other ones are at a determent in comparison or how the risk/reward of those plays don't even come close to camping or tunneling. There is a reason why people make those plays and it isn't to prevent others from playing the game, it is to win in a PvP game."
To respond to the "The fact that I think that it is acceptable to camp and tunnel and deemed it core game play?" As it currently stands in the games design it does, they are cornerstones of how the current mechanics work that is just reality. I also stated the below clearly that what you are trying to achieve to eliminate these elements from the game isn't fundamentally wrong and yet it requires more than what you suggest, if you are actually serious about it.
"There isn't actually anything wrong with wanting to shift the powerful moves that a killer can make, but in order to create a shift... if you care about balance you have to make other aspects more attractive, better, more powerful to compensate for the drop in power that you want to create in those areas that bother you and that is what is missing."
BHVR changed up the meta, they changed base mechanics and the meta perks. They didn't do this in isolation and new powerful tools and perks arrived in the process. While I believe they made a mistake to not provide buffs to solo survivors at the same time, when wanting to create a sizable shift you have to take but also give, else it completely bombs.
The whole this isn't my job cop out, just showcases that you have no interest in actually discussing the topic at hand in a realistic fashion. I didn't twist your words, but you clearly tried to twist mine. You made a post called the patch notes we need, with suggestions to fundamental change the game. You want to give suggestions on an aspect of the game, without considering the ramifications that those changes would have upon the game and want the developers to consider them? You are the one that initiated the topic, you are making the suggestions. This isn't your job, but what does that have to do with anything? You are the one that started the conversation on the forum, if you didn't want feedback on your suggestions then why post it?
Your statements do clearly show what you would want, I am not stating anything about BHVRs intentions, so I don't get why you bring them up in your defense. Frankly speaking the feedback I am providing you is exactly why BHVR would NOT be interested in the suggestions you made, as also clearly stated by Mandy informing you they tried the pausing mechanic and it failed. If you were actually serious about having these a thought through, you would notice the clear feedback I am providing on it. Yet as most of these post and showcasing my initial response was correct:
You don't want to be taken serious, you don't want a solution to your concerns, just the removal of the mechanics and be damned of the actual gameplay and balance that the game relies on to ensure both sides are played. It is to extremely lopsided and you don't care, as long as it removes camping and tunneling you are good even at the cost of having nobody to face I guess.
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Maybe only pause if the killer is not in a chase with the same radius as to how the emblem proximity to hook occurs? That way, it couldn't be abused by survivors swarming the hook, but would still keep killers from constantly camping.
Because honestly, everyone tells me "Grade is not indicative of your skill level, it's just how often you play the game" and so I must have negative 100 skill or something because I play more than most streamers I know and I've yet to make it past Gold IV EVER, usually don't get past the silver ranks most months. Why? Because of how much I get camped and tunneled in nearly every match. Did I do well in one match? Great, doesn't matter because I'll be camped and tunneled my next five. So the whole "Grade is indicative of how much you play, not your skill" only is the case if you are not constantly losing your progress due to camping and tunneling.
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@Kalinikta What are you even ranting about. I told you already my intentions and what I expected of this post. Do you want me to solve every problem the game has in one go? Sorry, can't do that. If you can go ahead.
Here, let me explain it simply for you. Camping and tunneling is an easy way out of a game for a Killer that is very frustrating for Survivors that basically get forced out of a game. When I say forced out of a game I mean they can't do anything else other than run and die within 5 minutes or less since the game started. Are there other options other than what I have provided? Yes. Are they as good? No idea. Did I take into account every single game mechanic when I thought of these? No sir.
Whatever you think the "cop out" was, was nothing but me telling you the above. I cannot solve every problem the game has. I can however try to provide solutions for what I see is a problem and share it with others. My issues are Survivor-sided so I raised those in this post. Some people raised very good options and very good points about why some might not be so good and I understood those. You on the other hand are just giving me a hard time for basically not thinking about, oh I don't know, completely refactoring a game. Which obviously is not something I would ever be able to accomplish alone.
Is what I want end camping and tunneling? You bet, that's exactly what I want.
Do I have the perfect masterpiece of a plan to make that happen? Absolutely not.
Can I share my thoughts with the community and hear why they may or may not work? I think I'm free to do so.
I don't understand why you're saying I don't wanna be taken serious or whatever when I've stated clearly multiple times what I'm trying to accomplish. The game is not gonna change overnight. BHVR is not gonna take one look at this and think "Guys, this is it, we have the solution to all our problems! He didn't take balance into account nor half the game mechanics but who cares, let's just do it this way". Do you understand that? All I want is to at least provide some idea or maybe just a shine ray of light for whatever they may come up with. That's all there is to it. I don't want to have to worry about how it may affect the game or Killers in levels of depth outside my limited knowledge. They have teams dedicated for that.
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As expected you don't want to have a civil discussion about the topic, that the developers could use to address the issues you have. You claim to want to hear feedback from the community, but you aren't open to it at all. Also, I never stated you couldn't make the post: you are the one making claims it isnt your job and don't work for BHVR. I am simply providing feedback, as you claimed to want?
Your changes are to drastic to be considered as is. If you want to go this far and change the game at such a fundamental level than you need to provide buffs for killers as well. In these topics the other side of the coin never gets answers, just thrown out there that it isn't your problem.... But you want change and are incapable of addressing the largest flaw in the suggestion you made. Why do you need to address it, well else the suggestion has no merit... It is like a suggestion that gens are blocked if they are within the terror radius of a killer. It would be busted and destroy any resemblance of balance.
You want to provide an idea, maybe get it heard and considered? Shine a ray of light? The flash of a nuke is not a ray of light that will be heard, as it destroyed everything. As I stated originally, it is a too one sided approach with to drastic changes to be realistic or achievable.
It isn't about you solving all DBDs issues, it is about the issues you introduce with your suggestions. You want to remove the 3 main powerful moves a killer can make to shift the balance of the game back into their favor if done correctly and based on how survivors respond. yet that leaves nothing else as an option for the killer, leaving snowballing within the first 2 mins of a match or simply losing and that is the looming issue and why it wouldn't work. I showcased smaller more realistic tweaks, to help with your concerns without destroying the balance in the process and yes those would still be buffs to survivor.
Post edited by Kalinikta on0
