My idea against tunneling and camping
So tunneling and camping have been complained about since forever. And it's pretty understandable why. Getting knocked out of the game early isn't fun. No matter how you look at it.
Most people when they try to find a sollution for this look to punish killers who do this. I don't think this is the right way. Giving the survivors a shield against tunneling means you give them a weapon too when the situation asks for tunneling. Like it or not taking away the option to tunnel and camp entirely is just to much in the survivors favor.
The problem isn't that tunneling and camping is an option. It's how effective it is if you do it early enough. Turning the game into a 3v1 pretty much ensures victory unless the survivors get the gens done right then and there. If the 3v1 wasen't as much of a hopeless case for survivors, tunneling would be much less incentivized.
Give the remaining survivors a 25% repair speed bonus when a survivor is dead. It gives the remaining survivors a little bit more of a fighting chance. Now sacrificing 3-4 gens to turn the game into a 3v1 will seriously backfire if the other survivors are still at full strength.
Problem solved right?
Well no. Thing is that pressuring 3 survivors is just way easier then pressuring 4. Even with the speedboost. It would still be the best strategy to eliminate one player asap. It would just be harder to win. It also puts killers who go for 8 hooks before sacrifice in a awkward situation when all survivors are on dead hook. Where it would be ideal to slug them all instead of killing them
So the other step is. reward the spread hook strategy more.
The first time a survivor is hooked they get a 5% repair speed penalty
The second time it increases to 10% repair speed penalty
When all survivors have been hooked once the repair speed penalty they have increases by 5%
When all survivors have been hooked twice the repair speed penalty they have increases by an aditional 5%
So the maximun repair speed penalty a survivor can have is 20% if every survivor is on dead hook.
For those who don't know the math of this game 20% speed penalty and 25% speed boost cancel each other out. So if all survivors are on dead hook and one dies the rest will repair gens at the same speed as at the start of the match.
If you are confident you can pressure a 3v1 well tunneling is still and option, but spreading the hooks out a bit at first would be more effective overal i feel, which is a healthier game for all.
Now i'm not a dev so i realise there is probably something i'm overlooking that makes this a bad change or the numbers need some looking into but i thought it was a neat enough idea to share
Tl:dr
25% repair speed bonus for all survivors when one is dead
5% speed penalty for first hook, 10% penalty for second hook, 5% additional penalty when everybody's been hooked once, increases to 10% when everybody's been hooked twice
20% speed penalty cancels out 25% speed bonus
Comments
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It's something, but I feel if people want to tunnel to have an easy game, they are going to do it regardless of the 5% debuff.
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I'm sorry, but your idea is very wrong in it's basis. You think that campers and tunnelers do this because otherwise you can't win. They do it because it's easy cheap cheesy tactic, where you need zero skill and don't need to lift a finger to win. You can give trillion reasons to play proper (and I know, some will immedieately cling to the word "proper": by "proper" I suggest tactic that allow to compete with strong teams, because strong teams will wipe floor with camper/tunneler killer, therefore camping/tunneling is a dirty way to prey on average teams with zero skill development).
We now have tons of perks that benefit from macroplay (MYC, Grim Embrace, BBQ, etc). Cooldowns, breakanimation, genspeed, all were tuned in favor of the killer. Did it made stupid tactic less frequent? Quite the opposite.
The changes have to come from devs, that is you right, but it have to be changes that deny cheesy tactic. Just so it no exist. Not inducing "NOT CAMPING", but completely punish "CAMPING". That's the only way it will work, sadly.
Reassurance is a great step, but sadly just a bandaid. It need to be basekit, like BT.
Btw, haven't you notice, at least every second camper/tunneler will be super toxic, BMing, hookslapping, etc. Carrots won't work, only sticks.
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That's not every camper, and not every case of camping or tunnelling is unwarranted. What you're referring to is a very specific form of camping/tunnelling and in order to 'punish' that with your stick you will inadvertently punish all other killers too.
As always, although there are killers who will camp and tunnel no matter what because as you say, its a cheap an easy tactic, there are also killers who do it because they feel powerless otherwise. I can tell you've never gone up against seal team teabag with their hook denial and 3 gens in the first chase before.
So carrots are absolutely an effective tool, they won't stop all campers, it's not the only thing that needs changing, but they will reduce the amount of camping. After all why do you think instances of camping and tunnelling increased after the patch? It's not because those killers 'would camp and tunnel anyway', if that was the case, they would have been doing it already.
Killers actually lost a ton non-camping/tunnelling perks in this last update. BBQ is no longer an automatic pick for the BP and it's tangible features aren't enough to make it meta, Ruin was nerfed to uselessness, and Pop is not the best gen kicking perk anymore. Pain Res lost it's most healthy feature (info) yet still maintained it's most toxic feature (DMS synergy). All of those perks required you to leave the hook and interact with other objectives to get value out of them. Instead we have a meta of Call Of Brine and Overcharge or Pain Res, which gains no special value out of healthy hook play, so has no baring on whether or not a killer camps or tunnels.
MYC is still a great perk, but it's not so useful on low mobility killers. Grim Embrace is a joke, you cannot be serious.
We absolutely need more perks like these though, and the important thing is that they are made the more effective choices due to their requirement to make and leave hooks. Ruin and Pop need to be better choices than Call of Brine and Overcharge, so that killers are rewarded for leaving a fresh hook to pressure gens. Pain Res would be far better if it lost some regression value in exchange for the info it used to give you, and BBQ needs something else going for it, maybe something that rewards hooking different survivors like it used to.
Ultimately though, Reassurance will be a game changer. Similar to DS, the mere risk of it being in your game is going to have a deleterious effect on the amount of campers. After all why commit 30s to camping if a survivor can come up and turn that into 3 minutes just like that?
Kinship could do with some buffs to bring it closer in line to reassurance, that way you then have a generic perk that can be used in it's place.
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It's funny that the game has so many similar perks and yet they don't do anything to older perks but make new ones
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I agree, it's not every camper, but majority of them (at least on my MMR/server). But I really inclined to think that giving abusive unhealthy tactic to "downtrodden" killers as consolation prize is not healthy:
a) it will be abused by others, ofc, but besides that:
b) it won't force killers to develop skills
c) it is unfun behaviour for all participants (at least 4 of 5), and in computer game everything should be fun (that's the idea, right). I'm not talking about "I'm losing, it's not fun, that on is personal"
Let's take survivor, for example. Extremely frustrating experience unless you're many-thousand-hours god-looper. (I have 1200+ and playing survivor is still can ruin my mood). And yet there is not any "consolation prize" for survivor. Like "Ok, you get downed every 5 seconds, here's invulnurability till the end of match, bud". It sounds absurd, right? But for the killer it's turning off most of protection perks in endgame, camping/tunneling, etc. No, for survivor you have to git gud, because there is no other option. And I think THAT IS what should apply to BOTH sides. Forcing killers to git gud. Just by removing cheese option. Like it is not existed in DbD like AK-47s and rocket-launchers for survivor.
Look, you can't saw survivor in half with chainsaw right away, right? He first go down, then you hook him, if he unhooked you need to down him again, hook again. Ridiculous, right? In real life the moment survivor on the floor, I'd saw his limbs off. That is "game convention".
So for the same reasons devs should just remove ability to camp, under same game conventions.
Yes, it will be painful at first, but will drastically improve killers skill, which is great in long term. Because now no reason to develop if it's fine as it is. That's our human nature.
TL;DR
Patting new/bad killers on a head and giving them a cookie to not being frustrated is very bad. Throwing in a middle of the lake to teach them how to swim much better (exactly like survivors are thrown).
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Camp/tunnel/slug are basic killer gameplay mechanics.
The first proposal to prevent these mechanics, the most viable and the easiest to implement, is to reduce the number of stages on the hook to 1 instead of 3.
The first time a Survivor is hooked, it's over for them.
However, this proposal would make the power of PyramidHead too strong, and in general the survivors would probably not want to leave a game as quickly.
It's the best proposition objectively because killers whether strong or weak wouldn't have to come back and insist on a survivor.
There is no mechanically better proposition.
The second proposal: it is to move the hooks when a survivor is hooked the first time and second time and the killer approaches within 16 meters.
This idea is good for Survivors, but not for Killers and there would be a lot of skills to rework.
But generally speaking, killers just wouldn't want to play the game.
These ideas are the only ones that actually prevent camp/tunnel killers.
Because they just couldn't mechanically insist on a survivor.
Outside these ideas are not appreciated but there are no other ideas mechanically more powerful than these.
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this man wants to "force killers to develop skills". in a party game. Camping isn't even necessarily cheesing. Stand in front of the first survivor you hooked for a min and see many kills you get. 1 at best... there's no such thing as "forcing people to develop skills", campers, tunnelers, normal players and everyone else will achieve better decisionmaking just by playing. and survivors aren't forced to git gud either, because your solo escape isn't as much as 4K for a Killer. If you get tunneled out and are the only survivor dead by the end of the match then technically many would consider your team as the winning team. there's your prize - if killers go out of their way to kill you, others will benefit form it. Not being able to camp anymore won't lead to a skill inflation in killers. Getting a Kill trough camping is not a cookie. It's just the best thing you can do at a certain point to get the most kills. It is your objective to get as many kills as possible, and camping is just a way to complete it: getting as many kills as possible. if that is the 1 kill you get from camping a basement hook in endgame collapse, you still got more objective completion than a 0k... your point makes zero sense, what are you talking about?
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the issue with removing camping/tunneling is that the game is not in a good enough state of balance for these changes to have a positive impact. if they did a map balancing patch to remove god loops, and other things that just make chases too long for killers to play in a healthy manner, tunneling and camping could be nerfed into the ground. but killer needs to be in a state that you can win without using these strats first
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"This man" is talking about, if you tried to read what I wrote before ferociously defend camping, that it is unhealthy and unfun for most of players. That's the main issue. In computer game it is cheesy unfun tactic. Unfun. DbD is not a job, not a war where everything goes. It's competitive multiplayer game with rules and conventions.
So again, please, stop defend camping with "at certain point" or "at some circumstances". It is abused by many without "certain points" and at least because of that should go. "Yes, sorry, it would be nice to have camping in that scenario, but it's not exist. Sorry, use other tactics, have a nice day."
Tactic that works only on average teams is not a good tactic. And if some killer got 0K instead of 1K because there is no camping, nothing terrible with that.
Anyone can tell me about certain circumstances all day long, but I wouldn't understand it anyway, because LITERALLY last 5 matches I saw tunneling and camping right of the bat, from 5 gens start.
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Camping and tunnelling isn't a "consolation prize for downtrodden killers" that needs to be kept in the game to 'keep bad killers happy' or anything like that.
It's a valid tactic with a cost-benefit consideration. You sacrifice all of your gen pressure to defend one of your objectives, the hooked survivor. The fact that it's "unfun" for some of the players isn't the main issue. If a survivor is on the hook they've effectively already lost what is an elimination game. It's the survivors job to not get hooked, failing that, it's the job of survivors as a team to work together to stage a hook rescue. That's the game you've signed up to play.
You're still conflating 'facecamping at five gens' with 'all forms of camping'. One is contextually toxic, the other is a wide range of player choices and behaviours that can be justified at any moment for a range of reasons, usually reasons provided by survivors actions. e.g. you hook a survivor, and you immediately see another survivor approaching for an unhook.
The problem is that the cost-benefit equation isn't well balanced, leading to early game camping being inherently less risky than not camping in some scenarios. It's all about what the killer has to lose. If they feel they're going to lose five gens anyway, then they're more inclined to protect their one kill.
Camping needs to be more costly, particularly where it comes to gen defence. So the TC's idea isn't terrible, maybe needs some numerical adjustments, but the idea is sound. The main counter to camping is doing gens, so make gens go quicker if killers choose to camp and tunnel. This maintains camping/tunnelling in dire scenarios or at end game as a valid tactic.
Meanwhile the perks I mentioned in my last post being stronger/meta would serve to make not camping less costly. Thus balancing the cost-benefit equation, and reducing camping.
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certain scenarios and circumstances are what make a game where everything is about the killer played and the perks brought, also, dbd is not a competitive game, it's a party game. stop tryna make it a high skill game, this is not league. it's fun based. about fun. and kills are fun. but let's not take this any further as you are clearly unable to have a non biased opinion on the topic and go in ways too radical, it's a shame really, but if you enjoy discussing like this, go for it.
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"It's the survivors job to not get hooked, failing that, it's the job of survivors as a team to work together to stage a hook rescue."
This.
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