When will we stop punishing killers for ending the game naturally?
That endgame mori mechanic should have been implemented the patch after it was announced. I guess since it was a killer issue though, it was skipped over. Now you see match after match (when the killer actually wins, anyway) survivors just lame it out by hiding and are almost always rewarded for that kind of play. I just want to know why the endgame of this game is so egregiously survivor sided.
They didn't complete all the gens, which was easy enough to do if they weren't walking around the edge of the map or being overly altruistic. What do they get for their failure? Absolutely free hatch escape. They didn't even have to do a gen, heal a teammate, or even see the killer. They just get out, because a random door spawned on the ground for them. They somehow can fail that, which they shouldn't because it almost always spawns near the survivor or where they're running to, their prompt trumps the killer's, they can pretty much vacuum in, and then they have key after the killer closes it and leaves, which they can randomly find in a chest.
Why did the killer leave, you say? Because after closing the hatch, now the exits power up. No gens or anything had to be done for that. It's just a freebie. Sometimes the killer's unlucky enough to barely escape the cusp of defeat, as in all the gens were done but 1 survivor remains, only for them to now have to guard hatch AND both exits! Might as well put the controller down at that point. Even after other survivors have escaped through a gate and you think you have the last survivor cornered, hatch still spawns for them for no reason at all, again giving them 3 escape options.
This is all the nonsense the killer has to deal with by trying to end the game as they're supposed to. That's why tons of killers slug for the 4k, slug the 3rd to get the 4th, because they don't want to give survivors multiple free chances to escape for no reason. They could even slug all 4 survivors from the get go, hopefully with nobody stopping it with Unbreakable, and let them bleed out just so maybe none of this even gets started. But even then, who knows? Maybe the hatch spawns on the last person before they bleed out so they can escape for free. Yes, even as a crawling, dying body you get suctioned out through hatch. And if the killer find hatch first and closes it, you get Adrenaline if you have it, so now you get a chance at a key or the gates again.
I know this is about survivors needing a reason to keep playing, because their feelings are priority #1, but this could have been handled way better with literally any other mechanic that doesn't involve free instantaneous escapes. Do the endgame chase idea, or something at least halfway engaging like that where the killer and survivor still have to interact with each other.
My preference though is that maybe, and this is gonna sound crazy, survivors shouldn't escape at that point. The endgame mechanic(s) could be killer sided for a change. You didn't complete a gen in X time? You get your aura revealed permanently until you are dead. No hatch or nothing. Maybe you could give survivors double BP from that point on, since survivors need some kind of incentive to not press the Leave Match button when things get tough.
This is an issue that is near and dear to my heart. It's one of those things that you just don't let go of because it never sat right with you, ever since you started playing the game. The very slow attack recovery animation for example, which was recently made less burdensome. What I think of when I see hatch is killers getting tbagged after they played their hearts out, and now they get to watch that toxic survivor get away with it all, because the game simply gave them a free out. Even without the toxic survivor scenarios, it's frustrating. You got the 4k, or that 1 extra kill, by all rights. But the game told you "No." You lose the dopamine, you lose the points, you lose the good performance, and you lose brain cells when people tell you "It doesn't mean anything."
Comments
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Closing the Hatch trumps jumping into it
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If the 4K is that important just slug for it. Hatch is fine it's good mechanic. Killer actually has clearly better chance finding it with faster movement speed too.
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In the vast majority of matches I play the killer closes the hatch within about 5-10 seconds of it spawning. There are hardly ever keys in chests, if there are it is, for some unfathomable reason, a green one, which is pointless. The doors are often so close together you will never get them open if you're the last survivor. Many perks are now disabled in the EGC despite killers having NoEd which still activates when there is only one survivor left.
The EGC is not in any way shape or form survivor sided and based on what you have said you're already sitting on a 3k which is more than a win by BHVRs own perameters.
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Hatch is a good mechanic. Sometimes it's the only possible escape. If a killer forces a 3v1 from the start, the game will most likely end with hatch. Without it, this strategy would be 100% of the time rewarded with 4Ks instead of sometimes with an escape.
Plus some of us killers like to give hatch.
And I don't think the survivors' feelings are the only ones taken into consideration by the devs.
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Basic map knowledge has nothing to do with the multiple multiple places it can spawn. It's not like there's only 3 potential spawn points on any map.
It's a non issue yet I keep seeing people hiding in solo the whole game with Left Behind simply because this mechanic exists, but the killer's probably to blame for that too I assume?
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No. I've seen that the survivor wasn't jumping in, I mashed the button on approach and saw the prompt pop up if but for a second, and then the survivor jumps in. He wasn't even waiting on the hatch as I came closer.
We pretty much raced to the hatch from the same staring point, after he was clicking and clearly wanting to drop a nearby pallet to stun me, and his prompt beat out mine, and it seemed like he was going through me, and he just jumped in. If it was as simple as "You have the advantage because you're faster" we wouldn't be having this discussion, would we? And I'm far from the only person who complains about hatch. There just hasn't been a focus on it recently.
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How could it not be survivor sided? I've just explained, as I have many times in the past, how survivors get like 3 chances to escape just in endgame, and I'll explain it again for you. Survivor happens to be the last one alive, hatch spawns for free. Killer closes the hatch, the gates get powered. It's a small chance, but after that the survivor can find a key in a chest and get hatch. Or they could have done all the gens but there's 1 survivor left, and now the killer has to guard 3 things.
Note how I say "when the killer actually wins", meaning just to get to these ridiculous scenarios, you have to trudge through hell or high water, such is the state of the game for killer. The major part of the game by and large has not changed, and neither has this outdated and unnecessary endgame mechanic. It's so stupid. Kill the survivors too good, they get to escape. It's counterintuitive to the purpose of killer.
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Actually, the reason for killers to slug the 3rd survivor to kill the 4th, too, is simply that they cannot conceive a match without 4 kills, because getting 4 kills is the most important thing in their lives. You could have the room in which they are playing getting flooded, they still wouldn't stop playing until the 4th kill happens. When you are a normal human being, tho, you play as the match happens. If you find the hatch before the survivor, nice (you might even consider giving it to him). If you don't, then he escapes. But, unlike those who desperately slug for the 4th kill, your life will still go on as normal.
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Keep in mind hatch is now considered a draw for survivors and even though they escaped via it, they didn’t beat you. They gain nothing. You already won by killing 3 out of the 4. Don’t let that upset you. Now if they managed to get the exit gates opened after you closed the hatch, chalk that up to RnG and don’t let that upset you either, because you will catch more survivors trying to open the exit gates than them actually slipping past you. That was just a bad spawn of the gates being far apart with line of sight blocked in between. There are plenty of map iterations where the killer can see both exit gates from the middle- especially if you find a little elevation or high ground.
Hatch is needed for survivors who actually tried to get ish done, but had teammates like the one you spoke of above, not doing anything and dying earlier. Imagine being a good player getting paired up with 3 of those potatoes (which happens waaaay more than you trying to beat one of those potatoes to hatch as killer) and not standing a chance in hell of surviving. Your only glimmer of hope is a 50/50 hatch escape that just gives you a draw. You’re not guaranteed to beat the killer to it, but at least it’s there as some sort of compensation for your troubles.
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I'm gonna stop you right there. There is no 1 strategy in the history of this game that has ever come close to killers having a 100% chance to 4k. If you're gonna fool anybody trying to argue that, it certainly isn't going to be me. You don't JUST get a 3v1.
You like to give hatch? Good for you. Maybe if it ever goes away, you can just let 1 survivor escape for free, even if they still have 4 gens still to do, because you're a nice killer. But I'm not a nice killer, because I want to win, and there's nothing wrong with that, hence why it's not against the rules and the devs haven't put a statement out about it.
Survivors' feelings are taken very seriously in this game. You can't show gameplay of tunneling or camping, even if it was necessary to win the game, to an audience of more than like 5 without someone saying, "Wow, trash killer" or "that's messed up." And that mentality is shown in the game balance. Specifically the wording of the Reassurance nerf, not the nerf itself, is a prime example. "It prevented survivors from being sacrificed against their will." It's survivor-centric thinking, especially when it's talking about a survivor's right, I guess we could call it, to unalive themselves on hook, which 90% of the time ruins the game for their teammates. But the 1 survivor was able to give up on a match that they didn't like, so that's all fine and dandy.
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Killer main who slugg for 4k detected. Cringy cringy
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"I'm gonna stop you right there. There is no 1 strategy in the history of this game that has ever come close to killers having a 100% chance to 4k. If you're gonna fool anybody trying to argue that, it certainly isn't going to be me. You don't JUST get a 3v1."
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"You are not at high MMR like me to know the game is survivor sided"
The famous line from killers who slug for 4K. 3k or 4k doesnt matter. The only different part is your MMR gains for another 25% if you really want that 4k.
Last survivor escape through hatch means you already win the game.
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If the last survivor has been downed and you can't find him, just go make yourself a coffee untill he bleeds out or he finds hatch. You won anyway, so no big deal
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If you stand in right spot you can block the hatch so survivor can't enter in sounds you got unlucky.
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similarly there are places in the map where you can stand and see both exit gates, eliminating any and all chances for the survivors survival.
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I don’t care about slugging for a 4k since it’s boring to me, but you do get more Bloodpoints if nobody escapes and you also are more likely to get two pips toward increasing your Grade than just one pip and high Grades can be worth a big chunk of bloodpoints at the end of the month too.
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That endgame mori mechanic should have been implemented the patch after it was announced.
I assume it wasn’t ready yet and they felt the perk rework was higher priority in the 2022 roadmap pipeline. Now that the rework is done though I imagine we’ll see the mori change soon, maybe even next midchapter. (Same with the custom matches against bots.)
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Some maps though the exits are very far away just had that situation my last match and I would really needed that 4K because I got entity hungers with 3K.
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So you basically want the last survivor to be handed to you on a silver platter. I mean Solo Q is already in a miserable state with low escape rates. The MMR is a disaster and doesn’t work, resulting in potato team mates. The chance of finding the hatch before the Killer rare (especially high mobility Killers). Then the chance of actually finding a key in a chest? Laughable. Sorry, but it never happens. If Killer finds the hatch first a survivor only has a 16% chance of getting the gate against non-teleporting, lower mobile killers. But that’s still not enough lol. No, we have to be gift wrapped, bedazzled, and dropped in the Killer’s lap 😂
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Endgame Mori requires you to down the last survivor, though. It doesn't change the issue you're talking about.
You are literally faster than survivors, so the hatch game is in your favor. If survivors are getting out by the hatch every match then your hatch-hunting game is weak.
Once you close hatch you can get screwed by bad gate placement, but you can just as easily get the gates practically adjacent to each other so it winds up being a wash.
Post edited by Rizzo on10 -
Endgame with hatch play is like 70% killer win (considering some high mobility killers). 99% if killer slugs for 4k.
I don't believe in all the issues in this game this is THE problem for killers. And if I am mistaken, then it's clearly time to look at survivors problems for a change.
Post edited by Rizzo on6 -
Killers who complain about hatch are the lamest killers tbh. If you can't stand a hatch escape, you probably shouldn't be playing this game. There's plenty of other games for you to play if the hatch mechanic -- which has been severely nerfed and fairly so -- bothers you so much. I don't see why people like you even play this game. You sound miserable, and would probably be less miserable playing a different game. It's not good for your health.
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"Be happy with a 3k, you dont need 4"
"Be happy wtih gens done, no need to escape"
If you say yes to only one of those you might be biased.
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If it's really that much of an issue, just bring Deerstalker. The same way survivors need to bring umpteen perks to deal with specific killer behaviors, killers sometimes need to do the same...
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Just take the "hatch is a null result" thing to its logical conclusion and make it award the killer all the points, emblem score and possible challenge/achievement progress a hook would give.
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I couldn't care less if the last survivor gets hatch. A 3k is a win. Finding hatch is a matter of sheer luck not skill.
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I don’t understand how getting a 4k is so important to some of you. A 3k plus hatch escape is still a win.
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I would much rather play through an awful match knowing that there is a chance of at least someone getting out than have it where if we lose at the start no one has any chance. You would see a lot more survivors just giving up if the hatch was removed. Keeps things tense too.
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I think it's not fair to dismiss only one faction for trying to fulfill their goal. Survivors want to escape, kills want to kill all 4 survivors. ( game recognizes both with bonus reward of 5000 for survivors and 2500 for killers. )
Feel free to dismiss the next questions if you think theyre just us vs them whataboutism:
Should we tell survivors too to be happy with just powering the gates and then offer themselves up? Thats about 71% of the survivor objectives done (5 gens + open gates + escape)
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Who cares about hatch escapes, are you seriously complaining about hatch now? Do you remember when people used to do 3 man escapes with hatch? That was literal pain. I don't care if someone gets hatch, I've already won. You can't convince me that I lost because someone got hatch. They got a pity escape. If you recognize that, then you won't care if someone gets it or not. If I wanted to, I could just slug for the guaranteed 4k if need be.
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What else are survivors supposed to do in that scenario but hide and avoid the killer.
Its really funny to me you have survivors angry that the killer slugs for a 4K and killers angry that survivors try to hide to avoid death.
Why do any of you play this game at all if the basic idea and mechanics of the game make you so mad.
Hide from the killer and try to escape it’s your role as survivor, hunt for survivors and try to kill them all it’s your role as the killer.
If you’re angry when that happens this might not be the game for you.
“But I only enjoy interactive play i.e. chases.”
Well yes they are fun but they are only one part of the game. Sometimes the game is chase heavy sometimes it’s cat and mouse.
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That is a false equivalency. The second line would have to be "Be happy with the 3 man out, you don't need a 4 man escape." However in this case, there is additional social aspects of the game, and a risk to lose more than is gained.
In solo-q I would like to rescue the person who helped me earlier, and leave the person to die if they sabotaged me. There is risk in that proposition of rescuing however, as you can lose more than you stand to gain. Even then you have to take hits on the way out bodyblocking, which gives the killer more BP. As killer it strictly is gaining more at the cost of everyone's time. Part of that would be removed if they let you see a killer's perks and add-ons as long as no one you queued with is still alive. Now I will admit to sometimes slugging the 2nd to last survivor, but it is because I want to kill the other person and let the slugged person go. Alternatively if I hated everyone in the lobby and wanted to return the pain they inflicted on me. In general however, I will always kill players I wouldn't want on my solo-q team if I can help it.
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Oh boy, here comes An Opinion™.
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The hatch was designed to help end the game quicker. It also fits into the lore as the entity feeds off hope.
They tried no hatch and it just prolonged games a silly amount. They didn't quite understand how stubborn players would be and it did take a longer time than needed to fix the hatch standoff to what we have now.
The game is not over when one survivor is left as playing killer we still have to find, chase, hit and hook/mori them. That is the point of the game after all.
Quite frankly I do not think the auto mori idea will make it into the game as after the announcement there was a lot of back lash as some players like to give the last one the hatch if they chose. They may just give the option to use a mori as it is now on the last one instead.
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"Hatch is a good mechanic"... I mean I guess for points. But basically rewarding someone for losing doesn't seem very logical.
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Killer finds hatch first the majority of the time, and the exit gates are usually not too far apart. I see your point, but calling endgame Survivor-sided is a stretch.
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"I know this is about survivors needing a reason to keep playing, because their feelings are priority #1"
What a terrible statement. This is where I stopped reading. I can't imagine that long winded drivel got any better. You wrote a dissertation to essentially say you want your feelings to be #1.
That "trusted" tag is just an acknowledgement of volume, not quality.
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What in the world did I just read? Read the mid-chapter patch notes and then re-evaluate your post. It's a pub. It's not that deep. If a 4k really means that much to you and a hatch escape is truly the end of the world, try to get into comp where it's a more controlled environment. Otherwise...learn the maps and realize hatch has very little RNG to it.
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Not a false eqivalency because by default survivors arent a team who share any win condition. Thats only in swf players mind. Of course we also could useyour version but thats worse as it's my version applied to only 2 of 5 people involved. What about fairness lol.
"When playing x be happy with doing only ~71 - 75% of your objectives, else youre a sweatlord"
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issue is toxic.not hatch.
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That is a bit disingenuous to claim the Survivors aren't a team. I can understand if Solo-Q has driven anyone to that level of misanthropy, but that doesn't change the base concept of the survivors needing to work together to escape. If I decide to not to gens and bodyblock other survivors treating the game like a free for all, odds are I will not survive. In addition if any survivor gets hooked they almost exclusively rely on altruism to be rescued. Theoretically they could be running a Slippery Meat/Deliverance build, but that can't get you off a 2nd stage hook.
Also the basic tutorial claims "Teamwork is an essential part of Dead By Daylight.", so on one count that argument fails. On a second count that argument fails because as a solo Survivor I don't need to complete 5 generators or fully occupy the killer's time, any survivor can complete generators or distract the killer, be that in chase or through clever use of perks. If that isn't a team working towards a common goal then I guess it fails to match similar patterns throughout the rest of games created by humans and I am truly at a loss.
Wait a minute... what does it say under ban reasons? Under the Griefing: Intentional Gameplay Abuse section the very first bullet is "Working with the opposite team to gain an advantage or grief teammates". If all the above isn't clear the survivors are a team then I think you are playing a different game and are on the wrong forum.
"Thats only in swf players mind." Despite every instance I specified when I would play Solo-Q? When I play with my friends sometimes we like to grief each other a bit and maybe get out, because we know we will take the ribbing as fun teasing as opposed to bullying.
Additionally, when I use the phrasing "person who helped me earlier", I am referring to each player who qualifies. If they did gens, they helped. If they unhooked me or others, they helped. If they did nothing, sat in the corner with 0 hooks up to that point, or contributed to 3 genning us, then they sabotaged all other survivors. If I maxed Survival from excessive self-healing then I have no reason not to gift the killer more Sacrifice BP if they weren't being a jerk. Also when I refer to bodyblocking for unhooking in endgame, that requires more than 1 person in the case of facecamping.
As far as the sweatlord concept I typically only consider players sweatlords when they speedrun the objective. Be that tunnel toggling (only trying to damage 2 survivors before the first kill), camping, or hard tunneling off hook as killer. For survivor side I would consider solo-ing gens for max efficiency without doing anything else and 59s hook saves when the killer isn't around the hook. Some examples of non-sweaty behavior include but are not limited to: cleansing or booning totems, chests, flashlight/flashbang/pallet saves, or co-oping gens. For killer if you go for whoever you see, you aren't sweatlording, unless of course they seconds ago got off hook and tried to get away from you. Additional personal sweatlording conditions include BTL juicy toolboxes without a gen tome/daily, playing Nurse or Blight with perks without a tome/daily, and otherwise playing as if it were a tournament in regular matches. This is a party game that doesn't hold up to balance scrutiny when pushed to its limits. It is at its best when everyone is just trying to have fun with whatever happens.
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There you go with the belittling. I know life goes on, but I have considered cutting DBD out of my life on multiple occasions because of blueballing and reward denial like this being baked into the game. It's not abnormal to want to win, and not just by the skin of our teeth which is what a 3k often feels like.
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No, they did beat me. They escaped, and that's their objective. Their team didn't win, but they did. And they'll be more than happy to throw it in my face by tbagging, vault spamming, or flashlight clicking near the hatch before they jump in.
I've just suggested alternate compensation, as opposed to them getting a free escape. You're making the mistake of giving the survivor the benefit of the doubt that their teammates were trash and they did everything. And we're balancing the game around that. Imagine if we balanced the game around giving killer the benefit of the doubt.
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Right, just deflect everything I said with an immature copypasta.
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And that disproves what I've said how exactly?
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But then where's my sacrifice points? I just forfeit that for free because bad game mechanics? I wasn't talking about this, but it is an important consideration.
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Those far apart exits are more common than most like to admit. I speak from experience.
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How is it on a silver platter? I've pointed out that unless you're Nurse or Blight, you had to play your butt off just to get to this situation. Let's just admit that killer has to work for their kills, because the language that's being used suggests otherwise.
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But it does speak a great deal to how unnecessarily convoluted killer is. Can't even close the game out in a normal fashion. Have to go through hoops and RNG instead.
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