Why was Blast Mine nerfed?
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"The seconds it wasted was so minuscule as to not matter"
just as a heads up, 5 seconds on DS was what made killers entirely change their playstyle around it. and that number changed a few times, but its usage and threat didn't until they added the conspicuous action clause to it. 4 seconds can literally change the game when placed correctly, regardless of whether you understand how or why.
Also when did i ever imply repressed alliance isn't also a perk that people think is useless due to not understanding it? I agree its undervalued and even consider it as proof that blocking gens is inherently neutral and can benefit either killer or survivor, depending on the context around it
I already said it before, but I'm defending that people think its useless because they don't understand how to apply it properly. Its actually kinda ironic you tried to do the same to me about repressed when i never even doubted it before.
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theres literally a video on youtube showing the new DS and how useless it is now on every killer, showing how much distance a survivor can get (granted the video is showing a survivor going in a straight line in front of the killer, but that is to represent the max distance you can get, and i think, no suprise, the trapper was the one that had the most distance gained? nurse huntress blight etc all those had zero distance basically
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Thats cool there's a video confirming your opinion. There are also others that do the opposite, and they even include other factors like pallets, windows, and a plethora of other variables that each interaction is subjected to. Note how opinions aren't facts, since they center around a perspective and whether they are confirmed or denied by ones experiences.
All I'm saying is undervaluing is not the same as being useless, and it certainly doesn't mean your appraisal is correct.
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Apparently it was always supposed to work this way according to a dev on twitter. They just weren't aware of it working like it did before designing wiretap.
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I’m more curious why there was no mention of it before today. They made notes available for every other change making this one fell out of left field
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Just posting this for context:
So here's your offiical answer from one of DBD's gameplay programmers. Someone mentioned it earlier but here's the tweet
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I used it for the same reason. Could get the challenge done in one game, now who knows
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PFFT so it was just supposed to be as bad as it is now. That's amazing logic BHVR. The perk isn't dog crap because of a bug, better fix that bug. There are bugs that have been in the game since man first started to walk yet they haven't been fixed no matter how dentrimental they are. Better fix the meme perks to be worse.
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Clearly this not that popular perk was tooo OP as dead man's switch and ruin so it needed nerf.
So now you can use it maybe twice if you're lucky, well I should say charge it twice, not sure if you actually use it tho.
But clearly the perk was tooooo OP so now no one will be running it. I know I won't, there's already a lot of perks with one time use I would rather not use two of them. Can't wait for another dumb a** challenge to blind or stun the killer 60 times in one match.
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Idk what is more sad... Them changing one of the not often used perks or them admitting that they were not able to catch that something which got released F ing year ago was bugged... Now all the old bugs becoming features makes more sense...
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LOL!!!!!! I don't want to hate on BHVR but that is the most hilarious explanation I ever could've imagined.
So they didn't realize the perk was bugged....for over a year.
LOLOL. Had they realized this back then. They would've fixed it. Then some time after they would've reverted it back to the "bugged" state because I consider that a happy accident and it's exactly how the perk SHOULD work in the first place and I am hoping they realize this going forward.
It's hard to defend using the " bugged" blast mine. This new version will be absolutely horrible. All for a dumb blind that won't even save someone. Would be a different story if it was possible to detonate and save someone being carried. But it isn't.
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No clue, I think it the perk was in a good position as it was to be honest.
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"Just hardcore throw the game and maybe the killer won't camp you!"
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I don't understand how you possibly got that from that post.
It was about how killers cant be in two places at once, and how denying objectives is a surefire way to encourage killers to camp and tunnel more since it punishes them for playing more "fair."
When did I say anything about throwing the game?
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If blast mine shouldn't be refunded and it was in fact a bug, then I think it shouldn't expire. It should deactivate only if it explode or generator is completed.
It was gimmicky, funny perk, shame it got nerfed like that.
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Yeah I found this nerf unnecessary. Like of all perks to nerf lol
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I'm just tired of the whole 'if the killer doesn't like something, they'll go camp, so just do whatever they want' attitude.
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Thats cool you're tired of it, killers have been tired of living it for a while. Every time other strategies get nerfed and objectives get denied, it just reverts to the lowest common denominator. The devs are just as responsible for pushing design in that direction as the survivors are for taking advantage of that. Killers aren't bots, and they want to "have fun" as much as everyone else.
Its the unfortunate result of one person's "fun" denying another. Welcome to pvp gaming.
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Killers aren't bots, and they want to "have fun" as much as everyone else.
That's honestly quite rich, considering you came up with this over freaking Blast Mine. One tiny set-back and apparently killers are willing to just drop literally all engagement and just go camp instead. That doesn't sound like wanting to have fun. That sounds like wanting cheap kills and taking any excuse to effectively throw a tantrum.
I'm real tired of camping being used as a beatstick. 'Do what I want, or else'.
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You might be less tired if you stop strawmanning people for disagreeing with you. I'm not even the player you're complaining about in your hypothetical, i rarely even touch the killer role. That doesn't mean im not allowed to understand the psychology of why trends form, nor why metas form from those, which causes new trends, and so on. Balancing game design will always be about treating the cause before the symptom, so going further up the chain will always be more important than you being tired of other players' issues because they're different from your issues.
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That's the point: There is no 'further up the chain'. There's two reasons killers camp:
1) It's a super low effort, yet still very effective way of securing kills.
2) It's a protest against things the killer doesn't like.
Every single time camping comes up as a subject, someone starts ruminating on how survivors could be nerfed further to try and 'incentivise playing nice'. The reality is that killers will continue to camp because even if they don't have reason #2, they still have reason #1. And the only way that's going to get fixed is if it becomes a very ineffective way of securing kills, or has vastly increased effort to it. Some people will argue to make non-camping stronger, but the problem with that is that camping is at an unfair point of effort/reward, and so the only way to make non-camping be more appealing than that is by having an even better effort/reward ratio.
So in short: No. Camping needs to get gutted. That's the only way to get rid of it.
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You're acting like some killers preferring that playstyle means all of them do. Considering how hard you strawmanned me in the other post, its not terribly surprising that you would choose to hyperbolize things in just the right way to try to force your argument. You're welcome to your opinion, but you don't really understand the consequences of your argument.
Camping and Tunneling are lowest common denominator strats. They're simple and can be effective. They are the killer equivalent of "just rush gens", which is the most optimal survivor strat. The more you ruin the alternatives, the more people will gravitate to them. It doesn't matter that there will always be people who use them, but removing them can and does cause some people to choose to not play at all vs changing that. Just like how survivors just give up and dc or suicide on hook in matches they refuse to play. Your perspective is 100% survivor oriented in a game where killer is played by other players, not bots. You are purposely ignoring their perspectives because they aren't what you want.
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No, what he said is valid. Survivors want to complain about "unbeatable" Overcharge/Call Of Brine, but they don't want to run the perk that punishes the killer the most for kicking gens. You get "massive" benefit from those perks only after you get Blast Mine stunned, and if the survivors don't come behind and start working on the gen again. What survivors got massive benefit out of was a perk that outclassed Better Together in every way, because it gave a cross-map aura AND it has the blinding/stunning the killer part attached as a bonus. And you could just put it on a gen that would be finished 2 seconds later, and it would save it for you.
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"The more you ruin the alternatives, the more people will gravitate to them."
So how much did these alternatives get 'ruined'?
CoH has been the only threat to non-camping/tunnelling playstyles. Other than that, survivors haven't gotten any meaningful buffs in ages. And when killers got a six-fold buff to their baselines, did camping/tunnelling become less of an issue?
Of course, all you get is that the bar gets lowered for what's 'forcing' killers to camp. That's how you wind up saying that Blast Mine makes killers camp.
So now Blast Mine's out of the picture, so what's the next reason to camp? Spine Chill? Autodidact? Lithe? Maybe Dance With Me, or Pharmacy?
You can keep looking for excuses. The truth is much simpler: Camping is low effort, high reward. It's not because Claudette is running Fixated. It's not because Nea is running around with For The People. It's not Felix with Distraction and Quick & Quiet.
It's just because it's easy and effective.
The only way to fix it is by nerfing it.
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I'm seriously gobsmacked by this thread that Killer Mains are complaining about Blast Mine.
BLAST MINE.
I was usually the only person in my Solo Q matches that ran it. And even then, it stopped the Killer for a hot minute and they kicked the gen anyways.
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DS made killers "entirely change their playstyle" not because of a simple 5 second stun, but because it was a 5 second stun after an active chase, with someone who would be extra vulnerable as they just came off the hook. The stun then ALSO automatically heals the survivor from the dying state and gives them another chance to waste further time for the killer (or possibly even escape entirely).
Would Decisive Strike be used at all if it stunned the killer for 5 seconds but left the survivor in the dying state still? Because that's how Blast Mine essentially works. It stuns the killer, but then they get what they actually wanted (kicking the gen) immediately after. So, if I'm understanding your logic, 5 seconds is 5 seconds so would these be comparable?
I honestly find comparing Blast Mine to Decisive Strike to be such a bad faith comparison that I'm struggling to take anything you say seriously. I get you're arguing that it COULD be useful and sure, literally any perk COULD be useful, but the people you are arguing with are arguing in reality of how it is actually used. And the reality is it was already a very niche perk that now will be even worse and people aren't happy about it.
Would you have the same vigor in your defense of a perk nerf if it was Mad Grit was given a cooldown timer of 15 seconds after a missed swing? Or what about if Diversion was reset if you take a health state damage? Because that's how people feel about this.
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CoH killed hit and run as well, which multiple killers pretty much needed to be viable. It was also a universal strat that most killers could use, a similar lowest common denominator: "if survivors are constantly wasting time finding each other to heal, it creates pressure on gens since less people are working on them." Incredibly simple concept, completely invalidated by survivors being able to set up a selfcare station in an area of the map the killer is unable to pressure simultaneously. Also you literally just got a free BT at basekit which has a speed boost it never had in the past, stop the "survivors never get anything" dishonesty. Same with your "six-fold buff" to killers, where you emphasize the quantity while ignoring the quality. Your bar getting lowered comment is purposely ignoring factors to try to suit your perspective again.
You're thinking in excuses while assuming anyone who disagrees with you must be doing the same. Ironic that you threw in spine chill since the devs actually wanted it to require line of sight even just recently, and took a step back because they can't figure out how to do accessibility still. Your refusal to consider perspectives other than your own is why you're never going to understand balance.
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You are completely ignoring the fact that the killer has now wasted 4 additional seconds that they were unable to do anything. If that stun happens as someone is making a basement save, that can very easily be the difference between the killer even being able to get back to the basement in time to even find scratchmarks. You understand that there can be impact from short periods of time, but you assume the only way it can happen is if you escape punishment. While that is an obvious reward that can come from a stun, it is not the only one at all.
I'm comparing the two perks because the vast majority of the userbase never understood why DS was good, even though they claimed they couldn't play without it. Every time someone DSed a killer and then ran into a dead end or deadzone they were doing the exact same thing as someone using blast mine and then getting angry the killer kicked the gen after. Its simply your own fault for not being able to understand how to apply the perk, so just don't use it instead of bemoaning it needs to be made into your image of it.
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- No one in this thread has said anything about Call of Brine/Overcharge being unbeatable. At best, they are mentioned because they are frequently used. Assumedly because the killers running them get good value from it. If you want to bring up strawman survivor complaints from other threads or around the internet, then this is going to be a pointless rabbit hole of Us vs Them.
- Blast Mine technically "punishes" killers for kicking gens, sure, but Blast Mine does not counter gen kicking perks unless the killer specifically tried kicking the gen at the last 5 seconds of their Pop Goes the Weasel. Killers still get to apply their gen kicking perks after the stun is over.
- If the survivors stuck around for you to kick the gen, they would have done the same regardless of if they had Blast Mine or not. In fact, if the survivor stuck around to work on the gen after it has been kicked, they are wasting time by running Blast Mine because it means they have to sit there and wait an additional 5ish seconds doing nothing waiting for the killer to recover before kicking the gen and moving on.
- Blast Mine doesn't objectively outclass Better Together/Situational Awareness. Situational Awareness doesn't require a charge time like Blast Mine and it gives aura of other survivors when someone is downed while you are working on a generator. This can be very useful, especially in solo queue, to know who may be in the area for a save or if you need to get moving in case another survivor is in the area of the killer and is about to go down. You can value Blast Mine more personally, but I think they have enough differences to not boil down to the fact they both highlight a gen.
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Bruh....
I'm actually speechless.
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It's kinda funny, we were all under the impression the perk was working as intended
So nobody reported it as a bug, which meant it never got fixed until the programmer made a similar perk and noticed.
Not faulting him for fixing the bug but hopefully the designers ask him to make it how it was previously (He did say in the tweet that it's up to them, so there's hope!)
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How am I ignoring the time waste? It sounds more like you are ignoring my question. If Decisive Strike left the survivor in the dying state but still stunned the killer for 5 seconds, would it be run at a meaningful level? My guess is no, and I hope you see that.
Ergo, its not the 5 second stun that was game changing about Decisive Strike. Yes, a 5 second stun can be make or break for certain situations but kicking a generator is almost never the cause of the issue which is why Blast Mine never seemed to make it in to the meta while Decisive Strike was the 2nd most common perk behind Dead Hard at top MMR.
And stop with the "bemoaning it needs to be made in to your image of it". This is a purposeful attempt to demean those disagreeing with you on a forum specifically made to host feedback on the very changes being discussed. What is actually happening is people are complaining about a perk that was in the game for a year and a half with seemingly no issues or complaints all of a sudden getting a nerf with no apparent explanation or compensatory buff.
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Yeah this change needs to be reverted. Not a whole lot that needs to be said about this, it was just an awful change.
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"If Decisive Strike left the survivor in the dying state but still stunned the killer for 5 seconds, would it be run at a meaningful level? My guess is no, and I hope you see that."
...Why would they, when OTR is just better in almost every single way? Thats a kinda pointless question to attempt a gotcha moment with, since the perk's usage was flat out replaced with a better version. Believe it or not people do still use it to stack second chances on top of each other, even though its generally not very effective and turns out like you'd expect. OTR flat out replaced DS in terms of relevancy though, by being better at the thing that people used DS for previous. And yes, people run that plenty.
As for your last part, thats exactly what happened with Wraith's lunge. It was a bug that accidentally made him viable and got fixed anyway once it was discovered. Same with most (unfortunately not all) bugs in the game. Like you said, they should get compensation when the bug was what makes x viable, but they don't. regularly. Most people just stopped playing him again because he was bad again. I don't understand why you keep trying to force opinions on me, but I'd really appreciate it if you didn't, its not the same thing as pointing out logical fallacies. In the end this is a game of adapt or abandon with almost every single change it ever receives, and some people have already had to make that choice often enough to not have a whole ton of sympathy for others who refuse.
Edit: upon further consideration, if your reason for asking about DS was specifically about when there wasn't a newly buffed superior alternative, it still would have seen some use. of course it wouldnt see as much use as it did previous if its power was effectively made weaker, but that narrow of a scope applies to anything in the game. When something gets nerfed in a meaningful way and still remains meta, that means that it was never ok in the first place with its pre-nerf values, or there is little to no alternative that better suits its usage application. DS would fit both in that situation, so it would still have people that use it, even if less.
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BHVR don't like survivors.
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I know people like to say BHVR doesn't play their game which I usually roll my eyes at but now.....I think they may actually be right at least for a decent amount of people at BHVR...
Also we can only hope it gets changed back because blast mine was at least kinda decent before not good mind you but very usable but now there's no reason to touch it and it makes me sad cuz I used it quite a bit.
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To be fair, it is absolutely possible to miss things in your own game, especially when said game is made by a team. Not every person personally designed every aspect of the game, so they're gonna be oblivious to things that aren't self evident as much as the next person is. That said, it is absolutely a QA fail, as conditional checks working properly is an extremely important aspect of playtesting. Even then things do fall through the cracks, but they would be more culpable than one of the modelers or sound team using the perk while playing but not being aware its not functioning correctly.
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Yea I said something similar to that because a bug that small could easily fall through the cracks especially since it's not a game breaking bug or something that affects normal game play
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I hope they revert it, the fact that they reverted the Mettle change based on feedback gives me some hope for Blast Mine.
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True, devs were never interested in giving survs unique abilities
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CoH killed hit and run as well
Yes, thanks, that's why I said it was the only threat to non-camping, non-tunnelling playstyles.
Also you literally just got a free BT at basekit
And how does that help when the killer isn't camping/tunneling?
Same with your "six-fold buff" to killers, where you emphasize the quantity while ignoring the quality. Your bar getting lowered comment is purposely ignoring factors to try to suit your perspective again.
They're SIX compounding buffs that all make the baseline gameplay for the killer stronger, on top of the strongest survivor perk getting a solid (Well-deserved) nerf. But you (And many killer players) disregarded all of that. Because we're right back where we were: Killer is too hard, so we're just gonna camp and tunnel again.
You're complaining about people 'ruining the alternatives' when nothing has been doing that, and then when there's six buffs to the alternatives, those don't count. Then you say I'm ignoring factors in my 'bar getting lowered' comment, but you're right here constantly shifting the goalpost. They get a tool to try and combat tunnelling and you somehow twist that to mean that the survivors got something to 'ruin the alternatives'. The alternative gets six buffs and it's not good enough because the individual buffs weren't meaty enough.
You're literally lowering the bar as we speak but then claiming I'm wrong about it.
Its simply your own fault for not being able to understand how to apply the perk, so just don't use it instead of bemoaning it needs to be made into your image of it.
I also like this comment in regards to DS and Blast Mine. "You need to understand how to apply the perk!"
Except survivors don't apply it. The killer does. It is literally dependent on them applying the action that triggers it. Survivors have practically no control over these perks.
That was the problem with DS too. It was actually a really terrible perk because it required a triple-dip misplay from the killer before it fired, leading to it rarely ever going off against a competent killer. The reason it was a high pick is because it still deterred the de facto strongest strategy and when it fired, it would actually have a meaningful impact: 5 seconds of stun, PLUS the additional chase. Blast mine doesn't give that.
...Why would they, when OTR is just better in almost every single way? Thats a kinda pointless question to attempt a gotcha moment with, since the perk's usage was flat out replaced with a better version. Believe it or not people do still use it to stack second chances on top of each other, even though its generally not very effective and turns out like you'd expect. OTR flat out replaced DS in terms of relevancy though, by being better at the thing that people used DS for previous. And yes, people run that plenty.
This is also a major cop-out, and wrong. Yes, OTR is better than new DS, since new DS is utterly garbage, but OTR doesn't beat out old DS for value. Additionally, OTR is, ironically, countered by camping/tunnelling hard enough.
But just address his argument. Would DS still be worth picking up if it didn't give the survivor their health state back?
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"I also like this comment in regards to DS and Blast Mine. "You need to understand how to apply the perk!"
Except survivors don't apply it. The killer does. It is literally dependent on them applying the action that triggers it. Survivors have practically no control over these perks."
I found that funny myself. What is the right way to use a perk like the new Blast Mine? A perk that one has zero control on whether or not the killer will ever go for a kick.
Spoiler. There is none. There is ZERO way to tell you will get use out of it. It was situational before. It's absolute trash now.
I for sure think this will be another when a bug becomes a feature thing. They will revert it back.
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note the person that only read as far as "there is a video" in the post, then started typing, because had they actually READ my post, i clearly said "granted the video is showing a survivor going in a straight line in front of the killer, but that is to represent the max distance you can get" are there videos showing the opposite? im sure, were there videos showing how "broken" ds could be at end game? obviously, did that warrant nerfing it to oblivion and making it that much easier for killers to tunnel?
keep all this in mind when you start complaining about 5-15+ minute killer queues (i have tried playing killer, even before the dlc, and oh boy are the wait times long, i wonder why? surely its not due to lack of survivors is it?)
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and the devs are so trustworthy right? they made a feature back in the day to counteract camping, it literally froze the progress bar of someone on the hook if they were too close to the hook and not in a chase, does that sound familiar? because it should, it was literally turned into a perk, but not before it was called a "bug" after killer mains started complaining and raising hell because they couldnt sit at hook and wait for survivors to come to them (boring playstyle if you ask me)
also, when the devs switched their engines, they told us we wouldnt be able to have the same color we had for our original legacy (you know, the thing we earned for getting to p3 through the horrible original blood web) and were left with some horrible looking cheeto dust cosmetic, and what happened not long after? oh suddenly there is a halloween event or something with blighted outfits, and wouldnt you know it, its literally the same color as the original legacy, kinda strange huh? even though the devs said they "couldnt" recreate the color for the legacy outfits, couldnt give people back their legacy if they lost it due to corrupted files that were due to a faulty coding (which if they could check when people got the achievement for prestige 3, they could verify that they unlocked it before the cutoff, they own the game dont they?)
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Max distance ranges arent even the correct usage, you're supposed to be getting to a defensible loop with that time. If that loop is closer than running in a straight line means literally nothing. Your comparison doesn't even take into account the nature of tiles in the game. Kinda tired of people trying to keep turning insights into arguments, i even emphasized the only thing im trying to accomplish is help you think about how to better utilize tools instead of complaining when they dont do exactly what you want.
Also when have i complained about killer queues? When have i even stated I play killer often?
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I addressed it in the very post you quoted. You don't want discussion, you want to argue. Kinda pointless tbh.
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no, you are just ignoring the fact that the devs countless times claim things as a "bug" instead of a feature when either one side (usually killers) complain too much, or they dont want to take the time to properly FIX the issue, because that takes away time from pumping out cosmetics and DLCs after all, we wouldnt want a properly flushed out game with as few bugs as possible would we? i mean we should expect it when they have 1500 auric cell cosmetics right?
funny that you claim im the one wanting to argue, when you sat there and said what amounts to "cool story bro" when i pointed out very clearly that the video i was talking about was one set scenario (which is what you said in the post quoting me, correct?)
ALSO i was just ######### face camped on the hook, i thought the devs made it so people can unhook at any angle? as well as hook at any angle? but the new killer can apparently BLOCK the entire HALLWAY and the hook? this should not be a thing, it was on a hall hook in midwich, and he was even insidious camping (granted its a perk in the game, but survivors these days dont know what waving your arms in the air means, it doeant mean "come save me" it means "killer is camping"
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