The Legion and Perk Diversity
Since the Legion is coming out tomorrow I wanted to highlight the biggest problem that his design creates that the misplaced buffs have still left: perk diversity. What I mean is there's barely any perks that work on Legion so creating a good build for him is extremely difficult. His power does not work with the vast majority of decent perks in the game and outside of his power he is a M1 killer with 110% movement speed so good luck with that.
For example, no Exposed perks are worth taking on Legion, because his power does not do anything with the Exposed effect. I understand that being able to down in one hit at ~125% movement speed would be broken, but it would have been nice if it at least did something, like made your swings take out more of the bar or something. But because of this, this knocks out the following perks from being usable:
No One Escapes Death
Devour Hope
Rancor
Make Your Choice
Iron Maiden (HIS OWN TEACHABLE)
Hex: Haunted Ground
The other major area of perks that he cannot use are healing-based perks. This is because Mending, despite the definition of mending when talking about a person is literally healing, is not considered a healing action, and they went as far as to remove other actions from the healing action pool when they should have done the opposite. You can argue that healing perks work because they still need to heal after, but the problem is, there is NO REASON to heal against Legion, because his power can't down you without 3-4 hits, and otuside of his power he's a 110% movement speed M1 killer so you can just loop him. That is why you see a lot of people in the PTB countering him with No Mither. This knocks out another rather large section of perks:
Nurse's Calling
Coulrophobia
Sloppy Butcher (unless you really want Bloodhound tracking but you can honestly use Bloodhound by itself)
But beyond that there are just some various perks that do not work on him or are redundant for other reasons:
Stridor -- Devs said he's supposed to be deaf in Frenzy, if they stick to that this won't do anything
Save The Best for Last -- Does not impact Frenzy's attack cooldowns
Enduring -- Does not impact Frenzy's stun and you'll often be vaulting over pallets
Brutal Strength -- No point because pallet vaulting
Spirit Fury – As said with BS you won't be breaking pallets
Predator -- Can't see scratch marks in Frenzy
Tinkerer – Detrimental to Frenzy's location reveal
Unrelenting – Already has virtually no cooldown on missed Frenzy attacks
Insidious – No reason to camp with him
Bamboozle – Does not block pallets after vaulting
Franklin's Demise – Does not work on Frenzy
Play With Your Food – Already gets a speed boost with Frenzy and it takes too long to make a difference for it to be worth his normal state
Thrill of the Hunt – How are you going to protect multiple totems at 110% speed and your power has a long stun?
And then there are simply bad perks you should never run anyways and also don't help help Legion:
Spies from the Shadows
Monstrous Shrine
Thanatophobia (though if buffed it would work wonderful on Legion but 15% max is not worth it)
Territorial Imperative
Surveillance
Shadowborn (while not bad, Monitor and Abuse is a straight upgrade)
Fire Up
Beast of Prey
Overwhelming Presence
So what are we left with? Out of the 54 killer perks in the game Legion can make potential use out of...22. Less than half. And that is speaking generously. That is far less than any other killer in the game. A lot of them in this pool are extremely situational like Lightborn and Mad Grit. The only perk he can make more use of than most other killers is The Third Seal because of how fast you can get that first hit off, but that's ONLY if they are grouped up, and even then, it's a hex perk and Ruin is also mandatory, so good luck with that.
The only universally good perks he can make use of are Ruin, Agitation, and BBQ & Chili, nothing unique to him and just stuff every killer can use, because Legion's design does not allow build variety or perk diversity. If Mending was a healing action or if exposed perks did something with Frenzy or if Frenzy was compatible with more effects, it would be better, but as it stands now, Legion is poorly designed and works with barely any good perks.
(TLDR Basically a similar point made in a video by Bricky if you don't feel like reading: 
https://youtu.be/QbjyMjw6gHA )
Comments
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Devour Hope at Tier 3 gives you a 10 second Haste effect which could help, could of course. Haunted Ground has the amazing potential that you could be chasing someone normally and suddenly they're exposed giving you an easy hit maybe. NOED gives you a smaller but permanent speed boost, he'd almost be a normal speed killer at that point. If Bamboozle blocks windows in Frenzy then it's an ok perk on him. You could charge through a window and hit multiple people and if there is a pallet you could force them to funnel into the pallet and get some more hits in. I think Tinkerer would be great om him because if you're within range your TR will go away and you could strike everyone on that Gen as a surprise. You can do that with Discordance but I think this would be better. And all killers benefit from PWYF, he could potentially a 15% speed increase and chase people normally for once in the match, then when the boost is gone switch back to your power.
I guess that's it, all the other perks yes don't really work for him. He has one of the best tracking abilities in the game imo but his natural speed will always be a hindrance until his ability is powerful. I'm thinking of trying these builds with them.
PWYF, M&A, Thanatophobia, and Ruin---This will give me a small edge to find people, a little speed boost for normal chases, since they don't want to heal they get a penalty and there's Ruin.
Discordance, Distressing, Unnerving Presence, and Huntress Lullaby---I'll be zipping around the map causing those small kill checks, any Gen with two people is going to trigger me going over there, and if I hook people in time those small skill checks will be hard to hear
After those it gets kind of hard lol
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isn't this game the most balanced work of art
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Hex: Ruin is pretty standard.
Many perks do indeed not work that well with Legion. With the exception of Monitor and Abuse and Remember Me. Thanataphobia would be great if the perk was better.
Honestly, you could perhaps use a Hex-majority build. Ruin, Haunting Ground, Devour Hope. With Monitor and Abuse.1 -
Another shortcoming of the Legion.
Just plain bad gamedesign.2 -
@Braduk said:
Since the Legion is coming out tomorrow I wanted to highlight the biggest problem that his design creates that the misplaced buffs have still left: perk diversity. What I mean is there's barely any perks that work on Legion so creating a good build for him is extremely difficult. His power does not work with the vast majority of decent perks in the game and outside of his power he is a M1 killer with 110% movement speed so good luck with that.For example, no Exposed perks are worth taking on Legion, because his power does not do anything with the Exposed effect. I understand that being able to down in one hit at ~125% movement speed would be broken, but it would have been nice if it at least did something, like made your swings take out more of the bar or something. But because of this, this knocks out the following perks from being usable:
No One Escapes Death
Devour Hope
Rancor
Make Your Choice
Iron Maiden (HIS OWN TEACHABLE)
Hex: Haunted GroundThe other major area of perks that he cannot use are healing-based perks. This is because Mending, despite the definition of mending when talking about a person is literally healing, is not considered a healing action, and they went as far as to remove other actions from the healing action pool when they should have done the opposite. You can argue that healing perks work because they still need to heal after, but the problem is, there is NO REASON to heal against Legion, because his power can't down you without 3-4 hits, and otuside of his power he's a 110% movement speed M1 killer so you can just loop him. That is why you see a lot of people in the PTB countering him with No Mither. This knocks out another rather large section of perks:
Nurse's Calling
Coulrophobia
Sloppy Butcher (unless you really want Bloodhound tracking but you can honestly use Bloodhound by itself)But beyond that there are just some various perks that do not work on him or are redundant for other reasons:
Stridor -- Devs said he's supposed to be deaf in Frenzy, if they stick to that this won't do anything
Save The Best for Last -- Does not impact Frenzy's attack cooldowns
Enduring -- Does not impact Frenzy's stun and you'll often be vaulting over pallets
Brutal Strength -- No point because pallet vaulting
Spirit Fury – As said with BS you won't be breaking pallets
Predator -- Can't see scratch marks in Frenzy
Tinkerer – Detrimental to Frenzy's location reveal
Unrelenting – Already has virtually no cooldown on missed Frenzy attacks
Insidious – No reason to camp with him
Bamboozle – Does not block pallets after vaulting
Franklin's Demise – Does not work on Frenzy
Play With Your Food – Already gets a speed boost with Frenzy and it takes too long to make a difference for it to be worth his normal state
Thrill of the Hunt – How are you going to protect multiple totems at 110% speed and your power has a long stun?And then there are simply bad perks you should never run anyways and also don't help help Legion:
Spies from the Shadows
Monstrous Shrine
Thanatophobia (though if buffed it would work wonderful on Legion but 15% max is not worth it)
Territorial Imperative
Surveillance
Shadowborn (while not bad, Monitor and Abuse is a straight upgrade)
Fire Up
Beast of Prey
Overwhelming PresenceSo what are we left with? Out of the 54 killer perks in the game Legion can make potential use out of...22. Less than half. And that is speaking generously. That is far less than any other killer in the game. A lot of them in this pool are extremely situational like Lightborn and Mad Grit. The only perk he can make more use of than most other killers is The Third Seal because of how fast you can get that first hit off, but that's ONLY if they are grouped up, and even then, it's a hex perk and Ruin is also mandatory, so good luck with that.
The only universally good perks he can make use of are Ruin, Agitation, and BBQ & Chili, nothing unique to him and just stuff every killer can use, because Legion's design does not allow build variety or perk diversity. If Mending was a healing action or if exposed perks did something with Frenzy or if Frenzy was compatible with more effects, it would be better, but as it stands now, Legion is poorly designed and works with barely any good perks.
(TLDR Basically a similar point made in a video by Bricky if you don't feel like reading:
https://youtu.be/QbjyMjw6gHA )I said this before during his ptb phase, this killer has probably the worst synergy with perks out of any killer in this game...which is...wow....
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@PigMainBigBrain said:
@Braduk said:
Since the Legion is coming out tomorrow I wanted to highlight the biggest problem that his design creates that the misplaced buffs have still left: perk diversity. What I mean is there's barely any perks that work on Legion so creating a good build for him is extremely difficult. His power does not work with the vast majority of decent perks in the game and outside of his power he is a M1 killer with 110% movement speed so good luck with that.For example, no Exposed perks are worth taking on Legion, because his power does not do anything with the Exposed effect. I understand that being able to down in one hit at ~125% movement speed would be broken, but it would have been nice if it at least did something, like made your swings take out more of the bar or something. But because of this, this knocks out the following perks from being usable:
No One Escapes Death
Devour Hope
Rancor
Make Your Choice
Iron Maiden (HIS OWN TEACHABLE)
Hex: Haunted GroundThe other major area of perks that he cannot use are healing-based perks. This is because Mending, despite the definition of mending when talking about a person is literally healing, is not considered a healing action, and they went as far as to remove other actions from the healing action pool when they should have done the opposite. You can argue that healing perks work because they still need to heal after, but the problem is, there is NO REASON to heal against Legion, because his power can't down you without 3-4 hits, and otuside of his power he's a 110% movement speed M1 killer so you can just loop him. That is why you see a lot of people in the PTB countering him with No Mither. This knocks out another rather large section of perks:
Nurse's Calling
Coulrophobia
Sloppy Butcher (unless you really want Bloodhound tracking but you can honestly use Bloodhound by itself)But beyond that there are just some various perks that do not work on him or are redundant for other reasons:
Stridor -- Devs said he's supposed to be deaf in Frenzy, if they stick to that this won't do anything
Save The Best for Last -- Does not impact Frenzy's attack cooldowns
Enduring -- Does not impact Frenzy's stun and you'll often be vaulting over pallets
Brutal Strength -- No point because pallet vaulting
Spirit Fury – As said with BS you won't be breaking pallets
Predator -- Can't see scratch marks in Frenzy
Tinkerer – Detrimental to Frenzy's location reveal
Unrelenting – Already has virtually no cooldown on missed Frenzy attacks
Insidious – No reason to camp with him
Bamboozle – Does not block pallets after vaulting
Franklin's Demise – Does not work on Frenzy
Play With Your Food – Already gets a speed boost with Frenzy and it takes too long to make a difference for it to be worth his normal state
Thrill of the Hunt – How are you going to protect multiple totems at 110% speed and your power has a long stun?And then there are simply bad perks you should never run anyways and also don't help help Legion:
Spies from the Shadows
Monstrous Shrine
Thanatophobia (though if buffed it would work wonderful on Legion but 15% max is not worth it)
Territorial Imperative
Surveillance
Shadowborn (while not bad, Monitor and Abuse is a straight upgrade)
Fire Up
Beast of Prey
Overwhelming PresenceSo what are we left with? Out of the 54 killer perks in the game Legion can make potential use out of...22. Less than half. And that is speaking generously. That is far less than any other killer in the game. A lot of them in this pool are extremely situational like Lightborn and Mad Grit. The only perk he can make more use of than most other killers is The Third Seal because of how fast you can get that first hit off, but that's ONLY if they are grouped up, and even then, it's a hex perk and Ruin is also mandatory, so good luck with that.
The only universally good perks he can make use of are Ruin, Agitation, and BBQ & Chili, nothing unique to him and just stuff every killer can use, because Legion's design does not allow build variety or perk diversity. If Mending was a healing action or if exposed perks did something with Frenzy or if Frenzy was compatible with more effects, it would be better, but as it stands now, Legion is poorly designed and works with barely any good perks.
(TLDR Basically a similar point made in a video by Bricky if you don't feel like reading:
https://youtu.be/QbjyMjw6gHA )I said this before during his ptb phase, this killer has probably the worst synergy with perks out of any killer in this game...which is...wow....
What's funny is that they have told us several times that they look this stuff up beforehand because they don't want this to happen.
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The grind through the bloodweb will be terrible with all the perks that you can't use just spamming in your bloodweb.
Image in a low level Legion with bad luck and just tons of perks to choose from which he can't benefit from.0 -
Well, the perk part of the game ruins every serious attempt at balancing the game anyway.
One has to account for too many variables and combinations.
And the statement that they do not want to create killers as strong as possible, viable at higher ranks against try-hards, also seem to be an excuse when they do not do a thorough job.1 -
The list of perks weak on Legion is long, but the amount of obvious bias is ridiculous here.
Stridor, Predator, Tinkerer, Insidious, Play with your Food, Thrill of the Hunt, Spies, Monsterous Shrine, Territorial Imperative, Survelliance, Shadowborn, Fire Up, Beast of Prey, and Overwhelming Presence are no more handicapped on him than anybody else. And worse yet, you listed Franklin's Demise and Thanatophobia which are actually stronger on him than other killers. Why not add Bloodhound and Hex: Third Seal to the list if you don't want to be taken seriously. When you have to so blatantly pad your statistics in order to make what could have been a valid point, you just make it seem like you have no clue what you're talking about.0 -
@Dehitay said:
The list of perks weak on Legion is long, but the amount of obvious bias is ridiculous here.
Stridor, Predator, Tinkerer, Insidious, Play with your Food, Thrill of the Hunt, Spies, Monsterous Shrine, Territorial Imperative, Survelliance, Shadowborn, Fire Up, Beast of Prey, and Overwhelming Presence are no more handicapped on him than anybody else. And worse yet, you listed Franklin's Demise and Thanatophobia which are actually stronger on him than other killers. Why not add Bloodhound and Hex: Third Seal to the list if you don't want to be taken seriously. When you have to so blatantly pad your statistics in order to make what could have been a valid point, you just make it seem like you have no clue what you're talking about.Nothing you say is really debunking the point.
Feel free and show your list.
Which perks are worse on Legion than on any other killer (any exposed perks) and which one you call better on him than on any other killer (Franklins, Thanatophobia, etc.).
And of course, the remaining ones are unaffected by him/his base kit.
Let's see what you can come up with.1 -
@Wolf74 said:
Nothing you say is really debunking the point.
Feel free and show your list.
Which perks are worse on Legion than on any other killer (any exposed perks) and which one you call better on him than on any other killer (Franklins, Thanatophobia, etc.).
And of course, the remaining ones are unaffected by him/his base kit.
Let's see what you can come up with.It's not about debunking the point. It's about obvious bias belittling the point and giving survivor mains viable rationale for ignoring the problem.
Perks that are weaker on Legion compared to standard killers:
Nurse's Calling
Brutal Strength
Coulrophobia
Devour Hope
Haunted Ground
NOED
Make Your Choice
Rancor
Save the Best for Last
Unrelenting
Bamboozle
Sloppy Butcher
Spirit Fury (unless you're going for a no frenzy follow up hit with Enduring)Perks that are stronger on Legion compared to standard killers:
Bloodhound
Distressing (if you're mixing with Monitor & Abuse for survivor locating)
Franklin's Demise
Hex: The Third Seal
Monitor & Abuse
Remember Me
Thanatophobia0 -
@HatCreature said:
Devour Hope at Tier 3 gives you a 10 second Haste effect which could help, could of course.Being someone who runs this Perk 24/7, i can safely say: This ability on Devour Hope is complete crap, not even worth 1 Token.
Yeah okay, there are gonna be VERY RARE situations where this would actually help.
But then you might as well run Monstrous Shrine, so you may prevent the 4% in the basement.
That's how comparably bad i'd rate that DH ability.2 -
@Dehitay said:
@Wolf74 said:
Nothing you say is really debunking the point.
Feel free and show your list.
Which perks are worse on Legion than on any other killer (any exposed perks) and which one you call better on him than on any other killer (Franklins, Thanatophobia, etc.).
And of course, the remaining ones are unaffected by him/his base kit.
Let's see what you can come up with.It's not about debunking the point. It's about obvious bias belittling the point and giving survivor mains viable rationale for ignoring the problem.
Perks that are weaker on Legion compared to standard killers:
Nurse's Calling
Brutal Strength
Coulrophobia
Devour Hope
Haunted Ground
NOED
Make Your Choice
Rancor
Save the Best for Last
Unrelenting
Bamboozle
Sloppy Butcher
Spirit Fury (unless you're going for a no frenzy follow up hit with Enduring)Perks that are stronger on Legion compared to standard killers:
Bloodhound
Distressing (if you're mixing with Monitor & Abuse for survivor locating)
Franklin's Demise
Hex: The Third Seal
Monitor & Abuse
Remember Me
ThanatophobiaSo out of 54 perks 13 are weaker on him and 7 are stronger.
34 you claim to be "neutral", including perks that we could scratch of the list anyway like SFTS, Monstrous Shrine, Surveillance, Fire Up.
But you missed to mention Iron Maiden, Stridor, Predator, which are in my opinion weaker on him.
And also less benefical/desireable to use are BS, STBFL, Enduring, Unrelenting.
But even with your count it almost double the amount of perks getting less efficient on him than those that benefit him more.
That is still not a good step towards "perk diversity".
Only very few builds will be decent on him.1 -
hey don't hate Surveillance, its just as strong as Legion, they belong together.
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Where oh where is the perk variety....
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(takes defribilator to post)
Be alive again cause so true2 -
I'm not one for trying to bring devs and mods into a post. But looking at this post views it kinda matches the views of killer subforum. So im pretty sure alot of the community is looking for perk diversity in legion.I kinda want to bring them in and be like this is a popular post (cough cough) getting any ideas from it.1
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You guys may not like the diversity of perks viable on Legion but let’s not play dumb here and act like that’s such a big issue for only Legion. Idk how many of you play around rank 1-5 but there isn’t a whole lot of variety in the perks. There’s about 3-4 different Killers that use a variation of like 10 perks. So many perks to choose from but still only so many that are actually viable at those ranks. So again let’s not act like this is a Legion specific problem. I use Ruin/BBQ/M&A/BS at these ranks on Legion and do just fine. If not playing Legion then I usually use Spirit Fury/Enduring instead of M&A/BS. Just my opinion from my experience.0
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@The_Yellow_Flash said:
You guys may not like the diversity of perks viable on Legion but let’s not play dumb here and act like that’s such a big issue for only Legion. Idk how many of you play around rank 1-5 but there isn’t a whole lot of variety in the perks. There’s about 3-4 different Killers that use a variation of like 10 perks. So many perks to choose from but still only so many that are actually viable at those ranks. So again let’s not act like this is a Legion specific problem. I use Ruin/BBQ/M&A/BS at these ranks on Legion and do just fine. If not playing Legion then I usually use Spirit Fury/Enduring instead of M&A/BS. Just my opinion from my experience.Perk diversity may not be great on many killers but legion has the lowest. (I don't like being stuck with 2 reliable combos when most killers have 5+ perk combos.) Spirit has the most and there very little you can't use and enjoy. (She basically has all the combos, plus doctor has alot also) But even with lack of strength choice perk combos on other killers there powers don't ussually cancel alot of perks outright. (legion is the only one who does that with perks) So you could have weak perks and be fine but now most perks there is no point to it. Might as well for new players change all the perks description to say doesn't work with deep wound mechanic. New players can badly invest in alot of bloodweb perks that they can't even use.
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im just hoping they fixed expose in the end on legion cause i love my rancor perk. I want to kiss spirit for creating a perk that is useful in bad games. I want all my killers just to have rancor. It is one of those perks that is like okay obsession been ######### with me and have adrenaline also. Well i have rancor and not eating you ds cause i deserve 1 kill in this game. I can get to endgame with 4 survivors teabagging me as legion going why can't i just take 1 kill while these people gloat. I just don't like new killer canceling out all the previous killers perks.
Legion perk diversity has kept me from playing game cause want to enjoy new killer and think him getting perk diversity will bring me back. That or getting a freddy who plays like his character in the movies.0
