they are adding new measures for countering camping and tunneling...
... but they aren't asking themself WHY those tactics are so common... well, the reasons are quite simple:
1 despite being nerfed through all these QoL changes a killer is ALWAYS incentived to kill a survivor as soon as possible since this strategy is extremely effective and will allow to have a match much more manageable (a team who do gens is impossible to defeat if you play "fair"... that was viable when the old ruin was still among us, but now it's just impossible, even if you play nurse)
2 the lack of real incentives to not tunnel and camp (BBQ was stripped away from the bonus % of bloodpoints earned by chasing different people, gens are still awfully fast, all the best perk for defending gens were nerfed into the ground and SWF are still a huge issue for the game's balance)
3 map design simply suck: i lost the count of the maps that have tons of palled and have loops that can be EASILY chained with each other, resulting in areas so safe that when you finally catch someone here, the gens are already done (to gave a valid example it's sufficient seeing the garden of joy map)
4 pip system and devs point of view: in one side the game is telling you to do multiple hooks in order to get a pip (so technically a win), but in the same the other (devs) officially stated in their stream that only kills/escapes are considered a factor of "skill"/"win condiction"... this imo lead/incentive unfun matches, where people will abuse of every possible flawed mechanic in the game in order to win.
5 toxicity: by concequence with all those safe zones, certain people are absolutely sure to escape and can act however they want without worrying about being chased
now, i won't say that tunneling and camping doesn't need to be adressed, quite the contrary it's a good thing that they tried to adress the problem (it wasn't done properly well imo but at least they are TRYING to do something), but the problem is that they aren't giving incentives for the killer to play how the game is supposed to be played, or to be precise they aren't making viable the strategy of going for other targets (this analysis is based on my personal experience and mmr since i found people that tryhard in every match with the best tools at their disposal makes my matches extremely short lived and unfun)
Comments
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Probably some mechanics like boons for example shouldn't have been added. Those should go or changed in the way hexes are, once you find them they are gone for good.
Also the BT now it's used almost every single game as some tanking tool, they literally come after me and throw themselves at me to get even more value from the BT, eventualy I end up downing them in that case.
So tunneling might be an option to some people, but right now they literally try to make it a necessity, even if you would like to spread pressure.
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The issue is they didn't punish camping and tunnelling enough. Simple as that. If they made it truly uneffective, I can assure you people would just stop doing it consistently, and you'd only have the occasional Bubba meme build or the usual griefers who always play toxic, doing it. Had they just made Reassurance basekit and increase it to 60 seconds, I can assure you killers would just give up on camping altogether and would leave the hook IMMEDIATELY to chase someone.
Since they're scared of the 3 or 4 very loud killer mains in this forum (they're always the same ones, as I say very often) that like to promote this kind of playstyle, they always tiptoe around these things. They should stop being afraid and act.
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It's really simple so I'll explain it to you.
- The survivor objective is shorter than the killer objective. The survivor objective does not move and there should be for the majority of the game be three survivors working on this objective at any given moment during the majority of the time played.
- The killer objective moves because it is played by a person. Crocodiles and lions hunt at watering holes because that is where the game is most vulnerable. Unhooking events put survivors in the same dilemma.
- The AI doesn't get mad when generators are tunneled but survivors do. The killer however is very likely to get upset if they lose 3 gens in the first chase. If survivors don't want to give you an easy chase you can just guard the hook. The easiest way to punish survivors who are gen rushing is to make the unhooks not be "Free". Survivors could choose friends before gens to stop camping but they almost always choose gens before friends.
- Completed generators cannot be turned off and killed survivors cannot come back until the next trial. Therefore survivors should try to finish a gen before starting a new one. Killers should remove the survivors from the game one by one.
- Putting all of this together it becomes clear that killer tunneling is a result of survivors rushing their objective. You really can't blame the killer for tunneling/camping if the survivors are rushing gens. If you want to make the game fair to both sides then you need to change many of the game rules so that killers do not feel camping is the only way to "catch up". Killers need to feel that going for lots of hooks on different survivors is a viable option.
-"Had they just made Reassurance basekit and increase it to 60 seconds, I can assure you killers would just give up on camping altogether and would leave the hook IMMEDIATELY to chase someone."
And most of the remaining killers would immediately quit playing the game. Why you ask? Because killer streamers with 9k hours often can't win the game unless they camp/tunnel/slug. I watched two games today on Otz's stream and he tunneled to win both games. Once was on purpose and the other was an intentional camp as "punishment" for being forced to play the Badham map.
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There is only one reason of tunneling: it gives the killer ez win. If they stop it from leading to ez wins for the killer, the problem would be solved without any additional effort to "punish" for it.
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Unless behaviour can add maximum incentive to spread hooks out camping and tunneling will forever be.
I was thinking there could be a way to work the entity in there where she can make things more spicey when the hook count goes up. Something more imaginative than min/max what's already there.
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Those tactics are so common because they're the most reliable way to win.
If you didn't need to do them to win, people still would, because they like winning.
If you want to eliminate them, you have to make them unnecessary AND unviable.
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Tunneling will exist as long as the choice is between "Hook three distinct people for no benefit" and "Hook the same person thrice and instantly vaporize 25% of the enemy workforce".
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That's the thing though they don't want to punish all players that use Camping and Tunneling since it is a valid strat in certain situations, like End Game when theres nothing left but Killing survivors, getting the Boon player out asap to keep Boons from becoming a issue later etc. Basically anything at 1-2 gens left.
Toxic Camping and Tunneling is what needs to be punished but that's a slippery slope just like how can we improve SoloQ without making SWFs stronger.
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"The killer objective moves because it is played by a person. Crocodiles and lions hunt at watering holes because that is where the game is most vulnerable. Unhooking events put survivors in the same dilemma." -@DBDVulture
I can't believe you unironically compared apex predators in nature to someone sitting on their ass for 5 hours playing a video game 🤣
This point is also incorrect. It's only 50% of said objective. It's only an issue if it's a bunch of SWF dunces trying to save each other and all 4 show up. However, I will concede that laziness is also a tactic and if works, someone is going to keep doing it. It's up to the survivors to keep working on generators and just get out and move on to the next game and hopefully find a player more skilled.
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As a survivor I hate it when killers tunnel and camp. It might not need to be said but for some reason people don't always understand this, so spelling it out: tunnelling and camping is an unfun gameplay experience.
As a killer, I like to think that I have enough self-awareness not to tunnel and camp most of the time, even if it leads to me losing or having a worse performance, because I don't want to ruin the game for other people. But even with that mindset, I still do it sometimes. Those times are:
1) The survivors have brought a map offering to somewhere my killer just has no chance at even contesting the game. If you're making an active decision to give me a bad time, I no longer care about your fun either, so I'll just camp/tunnel my heart out to get the game over as soon as possible.
Actually that's mostly it. Rarely I'll also feel forced to remove someone if circle of healing reaches the point where letting people continue to get free resets would just be idiotic.
Edit: It's worth noting that this rule applies to fully committing to tunnelling or camping. If I have someone on the hook and the team all stealth between gens for 50 seconds and go to unhook at the last possible second, you better bet I'll be there to force second state. I'm not giving you all that time on gens for free, and neither should I be expected to - not unhooking in a timely manner is your problem, not mine.
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Agreed. It's a fine line sometimes and very hard to go around.
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It would boost the Civilization V player base for sure.
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It's not an "ez win" it's literally one of the only viable tools against good survivors. Against average to bad you can play fair but even killers with 5k hours can struggle to play according to the absurd survivors rulebook
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Unfortunately this. And this is why I also stated that alongside nerfing tunneling and camping, they should gave killers more reasons to consider going for other people a viable choice. In the actual state the game is really in a bad spot imo
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Can't believe there are people still crying over boons
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Fact is that you can't keep punishing people without giving them viable/alternative options... If you have already faced good survivors you should know pretty well why the killer is forced to use those tactics most of the times.
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This game is probably in one of the best spots its been in a while.
True face camping is gone, hatch standoffs are gone, most infinites are gone, busted perks are largely fixed not entirely but largely.
All this talk about incentivising killers not to tunnel/camp. When it’s often survivor play that results in it.
I play a lot of scratched mirror Myers, the number of times I hook someone, hit the stalk button and see 2-3x survivors all right next to the hook. Waiting to dash in for the save.
This scenario typically results in play around the hook, wound everyone and often get the hook person to second stage thanks to bad team decision making and unsafe unhooks.
The majority of times I see tunnelling it’s due to terrible survivor decision making and killers capitalising on bad survivor mistakes.
Lastly it doesn’t matter what you do in game when playing killer because everything these days is camping and tunnelling according to the most vocal opponents to it. It’s a go to excuse for loss in order to devalue your opponent, bandage your ego and cover your own potential mistakes.
So what exactly are we trying to fix?
People say there is an epidemic of camping and tunnelling and yeah it can payoff in general but there is also an epidemic of really stupid survivor play making camping and tunnelling very viable and often the best decision at the time.
The expectation is that killers will ignore these mistakes in the name of fairness. We also need mechanics that force killers to ignore these mistakes so that we can all feel it’s fair.
Suddenly it’s sounding a lot less fair.
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99% of the killers would stay, and play around that, that is it. I can see the sweatiest tryhardest players struggling with this (Super Sweaty bully SWF Squad that represents 0,0000000000000000001% of the player base) versus the 8k hours Nurse who can't sleep at night if they don't get a 4k games 400 matches in a row. Those I agree, that would benefit the SWF more. But this is about choosing: Do you balance around the 0,1% of the players punishing the absurdly overwhelming majority, or the other way around? I say let's balance the game around the vast majority of the player base, that 8k Nurse will survive occasionally losing 1 game every 500 matches. They'll be fine.
It would not cause the apocalypse you're talking about here, because most players are caual.
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Any competent swf can beat most killers in the game if they are playing to win. And they are not some obscure percentage, as solo q gets more and more miserable the number of swfs is only rising.
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It's a lot less than it seems. I don't have any sources to support this because this is very specific info that I don't think they'll provide us with, but it can't be that high. So out of all the players of DBD, you will have to discard all the randoms, also 2 man SWF, and even 3 man SWF. So it has to come down to 4 man SWF. And out of all those, you will have to focus on the sweaty ones.
4 man premade sweaty SWF? That's the absolute minority in this game.
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An entire minute of reassurance base kit is absolutely not a solution. The problem is impossible to fix as long as the concept of a hook exists
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make spreading hooks grant baseline bonuses or expect the same killer gameplay for the rest of eternity, its really that simple.
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Just spitballing here but how about a ramping sacrifice accelerator (like monstrous shrine) that grows for each different survivor hooked at the same time?
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you must tunnel to win vs competent survivors, the moment u down 1 survivor 3 gens is done. what can u even do about it?
all of my matches are against survivors that are insanely good and im in Ash Rank
all of them know how to loops, once i down someone i rather camp them to death than chasing someone cuz that gurantees that ill lose
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-"I can't believe you unironically compared apex predators in nature to someone sitting on their ass"
Maybe you should take a look into ecology friend. DBD has many parallels to the hunting pattern of animals. Is it easier to chase someone when you know they must go for a hook or when they can be hiding around a jungle gym?
This is mostly true but not entirely a perfect analysis of the situation. Part of the reason killers tunnel is to make the game 3v1 so that their 1/4 gen regression speed becomes more likely to be able to be used. I will say again that tunneling is needed when you play killer because your "undo" speed is so slow compared to survivor repair speed.
Casual gamers don't keep playing the game for years after constant abuse. The nature of a casual gamer is that they play a game for a while and move on. Everyone on my friends list who could play killer at a better than competent level was not casual.
Would you keep playing DBD if all you ever got as killer were try hard Nurses and Blights for 90% of your games? I think the answer is no.
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I find it funny that they "need to look at why" tunneling and camping happen instead of working on measures against them, but when second chance perks were the topic of discussion and survivors said "they should look at why we feel the need to use four second chance perks", that argument was never valid.
Either they address reasons why, or they just nerf things. And a lot of players on both sides of this community have shown them that nerfing is their preferable option. You don't get to say "well, actually..." when it affects you, while calling for nerfs for others.
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i'm not asking for nerfs, i'm asking for options that could be more viable than camping and tunneling since the situation has drastically worsened as i mentioned above (they gave slightly buffs that won't change the in the slightest the main problems of the game and why people play in certain way... in the meantime all the main gen defense perk were made literally useless despite noone was complaining about them) and they are essentially reducing the few VIABLE options that a killer could do in order to keep up the pace, forcing the killer to play in a certain way (aka not optimal). as i said it's a good thing that they are trying to erase camping and tunneling from the game, but they should also do something regarding the "chase everyone" mechanic more rewarding and VIABLE, instead of seeing 3 generators popping only for doing a single chase most of the times...
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The game is in the worst spot as solo in the history of this game
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It’s all subjective.
I’m having the most fun in solo queue I’ve had in a long time.
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Anyone remembers all the comments of people that cherrished the BBQ nerf because "KiLlErS cAmP aNyWaY"?
Well turns out, BBQ actually DID reduce camping.
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Hate to break it to anyone, but if you find it "impossible" to win without camping and tunnelling, you are just not good enough. Even at the oh so "competitive" MMR cap. https://twitter.com/KnightLight1337/status/1563656841976057863
To note: I do think actual nerfs to camping and tunnelling have to go along with buffs to other aspects of killer gameplay.
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Not "often" -> rarely you can win without slug/camp/tunnel. Like you are saying, these streamed games where you hook 12 guys and looks so easy are either fake or rigged.
And I encourage everyone to do the same. Tunnel and camp as you see fit.
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-"Had they just made Reassurance basekit and increase it to 60 seconds, I can assure you killers would just give up on camping altogether and would leave the hook IMMEDIATELY to chase someone."
You may as well then remove the hooks all together, you hook once and the whole post explodes liberating the Survivor, plus no hook, as a little extra.
And the Survivor can fly like Tinkerbell for 10s to ensure the whole thing.
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Maybe you are not good enough as Survivor if you have to find a team ON DISCORD.
Maybe you are not good enough if you are unable to rescue safely and need so many pallets and crutches, maybe you are not good enough at hiding.
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I'm not entirely sure what you are trying to say, but again, good killer players can and do win the vast majority of their matches even without camping and tunnelling. I'm not saying this is true in tournaments, but it is provably true in the actual game mode that 99+% of players actually play. Even at the upper end of MMR, it is possible to win most of your killer matches even without camping and tunnelling. Even without playing Nurse! If you do camp and tunnel, you can even win most of your matches perkless (as you'll see in the vods here https://www.twitch.tv/kaiizoru/videos for just one random example).
The solution to a real extent really is "gitting gut". But again, that doesn't mean I am ignorant of the fact that in high-level matchups against competitive teams on voice comms, camping and tunnelling to a degree are necessary to be able to consistently compete, and that therefore nerfs to those strategies have to go alongside with buffs to other aspects of killer gameplay. I also am for SWF nerfs. And various lower-tier killers deserve buffs anyway.
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The 12 hook win is a myth past ash ranks. As long as Survivors are not doing stupid rituals like "go to the Killers face and wave your hand 2 times.
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This is the sad truth... If you did 6 hooks without playing dirty it's already a big accomplishment... Usually a killer can do 3 hooks before all the gens are done, even less when you are facing tryharders of the worst species...
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Holy ######### sus.
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-"good killer players can and do win the vast majority of their matches even without camping and tunnelling"
I don't see that as true. Again the last time I watched Otz two games in a row he needed to tunnel to win.
And the time before that I watched Otz play the game he went against a crack team on Lerry's where he camped someone for all their health states in the basement.
Otz has 9000 hours of playtime and he regularly tells his audience that sometimes you need to camp/slug/tunnel to win. I feel like as a "professional paid" player he has a better informed opinion than you.
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? In my original comment that you replied to, there is documented evidence of someone getting 12-hook wins on almost all killers without camping and tunnelling at MMR cap. Nothing mythical about it.
I feel like you are being obtuse. Sure, sometimes you need to camp/slug/tunnel to win, I never argued otherwise and even outright said that I think those things necessary to a degree to be able to consistently compete at the top level (so against an actually good, coordinated team of players). Doesn't mean that it's impossible to win without them, let alone in public matches. There it is possible to win most of the time without them. I haven't watched Otz in a while, but from what I remember he doesn't generally camp or tunnel all that much or hard, and still comfortably wins most of his matches, despite often using memey or gimmicky builds and whatnot.
Beyond that, it's not only weird to take a random example like that of two games you watched, but Otz is not really the streamer you want to be using if your point is "killer so difficult!" I'm afraid. You are aware that he started the challenge of being AFK as killer for the most crucial seconds of a match and still averaging more than 3 kills? His opinion definitely is more so leaning toward it being totally possible to do well most of the time as killer in pubs if you are good enough at the game.
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He didn't even follow his own rules on the AFK challenge. If you look at the series he did of that challenge he had the survivors throw at least 7 games. Compare when Truetalent did the same challenge and there was 1 throw. Needless to say when True did the challenge the level of competition was a lot more fierce. Otz often plays late into the night when the competition gets weak. Truetalent makes a note of this all the time when he streams. Most of Otz's show is pretty late at night and there are a number of people that take note about how he gets overall much easier games. I'm not saying one is better than the other it's just a reflection of a notable fact.
The point about Otz was that the last two times I watched him were two games of tunneling/camping each time. When he wants to win he will engage try hard mode. He will be the first to tell you that camping/slugging/tunneling accomplish that and are often necessary against good teams. You even agree on this point.
I think a more honest representation of DBD is when playing DBD it becomes more necessary to camp against a SWF team. The only problem with that is that Every game I played tonight with perhaps one exception was a 3 or 4 man swf. I don't want to play against that every game because I have to camp/slug/tunnel against it or I lose hard.
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Correct, 12 hooks win is a myth. You're not supposed to 12 hooks every match. The balanced kill rate is around 60%. 24 out of 40 survivors through 10 match.
The average hook of each match is 7.2
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no, they camp and tunnel cause most of the times those are the only tactics that can work (aka they are forced to do them in order to have a chance). Did you think that's funny going always for the same dude over and over again? without having the possibility to chasing other survivors with a different mindset each time? this is the fun aspect of dbd, but the problem is that you DON'T HAVE THE TIME to do it properly (or at least not when you are aganist people with a modicum of brain)
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Feel like this is a chicken & egg situation.
The forum killers like to propagate that 'you can't win without tunnelling and camping!', but if these people are tunnelling and camping, couldn't it be that they crutched on those tactics to carry them to a level of play where they're simply not competent enough to win without those crutches?
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He didn't even follow his own rules on the AFK challenge.
How so? Besides, multiple people did the same challenge, everyone apart from Tru3 averaging 2 or more kills. https://twitter.com/otzdarvayt/status/1479461876669030400
Again, this is while perkless and giving survivors a crucial headstart. Note that I don't care to go into some useless argument about what specifically happened in all of those streamers' matches for this challenge and whatnot. I only brought this thing up to tangentially highlight how Otz, who you brought up as someone whose opinion you trust, is of the opinion that if you improve your killer play, you can win most matches pretty handedly. Take it from the man himself: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=acHiwnCW7eI
Otz often plays late into the night when the competition gets weak. Truetalent makes a note of this all the time when he streams. Most of Otz's show is pretty late at night and there are a number of people that take note about how he gets overall much easier games. I'm not saying one is better than the other it's just a reflection of a notable fact.
Even if I were to accept it as a fact that competition on average gets worse at night (I don't, I have seen no evidence for this, nor do I know whether Otz actually mostly plays at night), the argument would just become "then play at those same times yourself lmao". Besides, why would we even expect players that play during the night to be worse? They are more likely to be the die-hard gamers that don't have work commitments or whatever, it is much more likely for casuals to play during the day.
And regardless, the argument that people apparently consistently get a completely different species of survivor players where suddenly the otherwise allegedly "IMPOSSIBLY SURVIVOR SIDED CAN'T EVER WIN" game becomes "yeah they 4k 99% of their games but that's totally normal at that time of day" has always been asinine. Not least because part of that "sentiment" is also that survivor is brainlessly easy to play and anyone can win if they just click a button or two... yet apparently thousands upon thousands of real human players did not get this memo since they don't stand a chance against these killers, time after time. Gotta be because they're a completely different type of humans from those that other people face! Those other people that are totally super good at the game but supposedly just can't win as killer. Which is not true for Tru3 either by the way, last time I checked he wins most of his matches too.
While I have followed some of the best players in this game across most major regions and can confidently say that on average there is little difference in the average competition they face (good killers 4k 90+% of their matches everywhere, including Korea where I am convinced the average level of play is at least slightly higher than elsewhere), I would if anything argue that Tru3 is more likely to face lesser competition than Otz. As far as I know, Tru3 is situated in the UK while Otz is in Spain. UK has its own servers, Spain gets routed to central EU servers in Germany most of the time. Russian, Eastern European and Middle-Eastern players also get routed to German servers, and believe me or not, players from those regions are some of the best in the world, and they don't regularly end up on UK servers because obviously they have a lower ping to Germany.
Again, all of this is just a tangential point not really relevant at all to the main argument, which is that provably (like, there's actual recorded proof, not sure what's there to even argue), good killer players can and do win most of their pub matches even at top MMR without camping and tunnelling, with every killer.
The point about Otz was that the last two times I watched him were two games of tunneling/camping each time. When he wants to win he will engage try hard mode. He will be the first to tell you that camping/slugging/tunneling accomplish that and are often necessary against good teams. You even agree on this point.
Yeah, we agree on this, and Otz definitely isn't some hyper-wholesome player that doesn't care about winning more than survivor fun or whatever, I have played against him multiple times myself (on both sides) and he absolutely does camp and tunnel and all that sometimes. I'm just pretty sure from the times I watched him that he's not a super "sweaty" hard camper or tunneller at all, that is not his usual playstyle, as opposed to lots of "tryhard" killers I face that camp and tunnel hard all the time every time from the second the round begins, and they have the thousands of -rep profile comments from frustrated survivor players to go with it, spanning years. Otz from what I've seen is more likely to use gimmicky builds and fun playstyles and not be super concerned about killing everyone all the time. And yet from what I know he still kills most survivors most of the time. Pretty sure I took kill rate stats from a few of his VODs for an argument on here sometime, and he averaged around 3 kills I think? And that was while using random perks in many of those matches if I remember correctly.
Either way, we agree that camping/tunnelling can at times even be downright necessary to win, and this is increasingly true the better and more coordinated the survivors are, where at the top end (high-skill 4-SWF on voice comms with good loadouts on a good map), I consider it a necessity even on Nurse and Blight if you want to consistently be able to compete and win. So I for one do want substantial killer buffs to go along with any substantial nerfs for camping and tunnelling. But yeah, that doesn't mean good players even at top MMR (the average match at which is still worlds removed from top end caliber) wouldn't still be mostly fine in most of their matches even without any compensatory buffs for such nerfs. I don't consider myself an elite killer player and yet I still win much more matches than I lose, despite regularly even going out of my way not to camp or tunnel. And given how often I win, I have to assume I'm at the MMR cap, at least on the killers I frequently play.
I think a more honest representation of DBD is when playing DBD it becomes more necessary to camp against a SWF team. The only problem with that is that Every game I played tonight with perhaps one exception was a 3 or 4 man swf. I don't want to play against that every game because I have to camp/slug/tunnel against it or I lose hard.
For one thing, I doubt you face 3/4-SWF that often, let alone them then also being super good and coordinated and whatnot. But if you actually are, and actually can't seen to manage to do anything against them without camp/slug/tunnel, may I suggest that you simply take the L and have your MMR decrease such that you are more likely to face groups that you can compete against without having to camp/slug/tunnel all that hard?
But I obviously agree that SWF is a notable balance issue. Actual 4-SWFs still make up a tiny portion of the overall player pool, last time we had stats on this solos and duos combined for like 80%, with solos alone being 50-60% of that, but I do think SWF is one of the biggest balance issues in the game, alongside certain maps and certain killers. I've wanted and advocated for SWF nerfs for years.
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This recent update has literally shown this: despite all their buffs killers left right and centre are saying they're still doing it because it was easy.
It was never about Dead Heard, in fact it was quite the reverse. As a long standing player survivor main there was a time when I hardly ever saw DH in my team, but before the nerf it was everywhere because camping and tunnelling increased. It was a toxic cycle, but yet DH got nerfed, killers got buffs and they still admit to camping and tunnelling. So, something needs to be done to level the field.
Camping and tunnelling might be an 'allowed and valid tactic' but so was every survivor bringing and using old DH to negate it. DH got nerfed so now it's Time to balance.
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Honestly I doubt it... Or to be more precise, It could be the case for some people in a certain levels of mmr (low/medium), but at a certain point those tactics are the only way to go if you don't want to get steamrolled badly unfortunately...
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We've already had 4 separate changes to make tunneling and camping less effective.
Some killers are still too good at it, but those killers honestly need a teardown overhaul because that's how their kit works.
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Yeah even "the most balanced map, comp tower" isn't as balanced as people really say it is. Like sure you can get horrible RNG on it but it doesn't make it balanced when you can have that map loops itself 2 times before you even get a hit cause you could mind game perfectly each time but they just have another tile or pallet right there to deny any hit.
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He didn't even follow his own rules on the AFK challenge.
-"How so?"
On the game map he ran to the survivors then AFK'd at a gen. On the Nurse game he didn't start afk and was chasing someone then went AFK mid chase while the survivor was cornered. He did not repeat those games and both of those games were not an "AFK" experience.
-"nor do I know whether Otz actually mostly plays at night"
Truetalent ends his show around noon my time. Otz sometimes plays till 5-6pm my time. There is no question that Otz plays later. The EU playerbase is 7-8 hours ahead. You sound like you understand the game. Watch one of true's videos when he has a TY tile like Freddy vs evening survivors. You will see the difference.
As for the Otz camping issue - I turn on his stream and he is playing LF. He downs someone in a terrible corner and immediately says : I don't want to make it obvious I am camping. Lol. To be fair he is doing a face camping thing today but he wasn't the last few times I watched him.
-"So I for one do want substantial killer buffs to go along with any substantial nerfs for camping and tunnelling"
Make it so survivor's cant tunnel gens and make it so the killer doesn't want to tunnel survivors out. The killer objective is too long and the survivor objective is too short. It's really that simple.
-"I doubt you face 3/4-SWF that often, let alone them then also being super good and coordinated and whatnot"
I understand that you are doubtful as there are a lot of people pushing a BS narrative. The last game I played last night was against a streamer in a 3 man SWF. I could hear her friends in discord talking to her. I was listening not watching to the stream to counterbalance the SWF. Are you telling me I was imagining the other two voices that were obviously in the same game?
And what about the games where I can see all four players on each other's friends list?
Do you think that two people on console wearing matching costumes/names are not friends? If they are in a game with 2 people on steam who are on each other's friends list that is a game with 4 people in a swf. It's not a 4 man SWF but it is still allows for good coordination.
You cannot deny my experiences. I am not one of those people who say every game is a SWF just because they play well. I scout every lobby. I usually don't play against SWF if they play with lots of items.
-"But I obviously agree that SWF is a notable balance issue. Actual 4-SWFs still make up a tiny portion of the overall"
The stats they posted were very misleading but the majority of players are in a SWF of some kind. Considering that was a time when it was easier to play in solo queue I think those stats have heavily shifted.
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