Low Survivor MMR not working
Low survivor MMR is just plain broken since the 6.x patches. Since the big version patch as survivor I have lost 271 games, won 53, with an escape rate of 16%. The more I lose, the worse my teammates get, but killers stay brutally good. Nurses with perfect teleports, blights, plagues, etc (except for last few days which is 100% wesker). I've watched enough streamers to be able to identify competent killers.
As for teammates, we usually finish with 0 gens completed unless i did them myself. The few games I win I have 160+ gen repair points because I had to do 3-4 gens all myself while still unhooking and healing teammates. Rarely I'm matched against a very new/poorly played killer and get the easy win or the killer is just losing on purpose. Lately I'm commonly downed before I can even touch the first generator, thank you Weskers throwing me into a dead zone corner with no protection.
In theory I should be getting easier killers (if not the easiest/newest/weakest), but from what I've been reading there is some mmr floor. Once you reach mmr 1600+ everyone is lumped into a pool together and you mostly can't drop out of that group no matter how much you lose once you reach it. This just isn't fun like this.
Pre 6.x patch I typically had a 50% escape rate as survivor (no, I didn't use any of the perks that were nerfed hard). It feels like they are tuning this game for the top 5-10% of player base and those of us in the bottom 25% get a brutally unbalanced matchup. Yes, I have tried SWF with voice chat and we still are lucky to get a 1-2 man escape at less than 50% rate. Yes, I know survivor pros with 5k+ hours can get out all the time, but I'm only at ~200 hours which should be enough to escape against equally matched killers.
When I play killer I've got a 65% rate of 3+ kills and I know I'm pretty bad at it.
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I had this problem before the update. The more I lose as survivor, the more I lose. My teammates just get worse and worse. If I do start escaping and getting better teammates, it only takes one match where I die to return to the hell of awful teammates who stealth around the edges of the map from the moment they spawn in.
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I feel like there is also the problem of killers being more powerful at low mmr by design, because there is more about efficient gameplay that survivors have to learn as opposed to the killer.
Not to mention that chases, at the most fundamental level, are dependent on the survivors skill. If the survivor has no idea what they are doing in chases, the killer doesn't need to be good to get relatively quick downs. At least I believe that's a problem.
The game needs better tutorials for survivors.
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This. I just did a 2 minute opening chase (killer on me in first 4 seconds of match). Teammates finished 0 gens in that time. They were all just stealthy crouching around map while I was obviously in a chase. Before that I had two matches where i died on first hook in the game, not due to camping but due to no rescue attempt from teammates...with kindred!
Most of my real bad games my score is 5-8k along with most teammates, unless they spend the entire game healing each other then they run their score up without finishing gens. It is depressingly hard to earn any points when you are first tunneled out. My chases aren't good enough usually to rack up many points. You get no rescues, no heals, no gen points when tunneled out first.
Agreed. Beginner killer I think is easier than beginner survivor. Problem is it only takes 1-2 beginners to ruin a survivor team's chances. Looping as survivor is much harder to learn than killer basic chasing. My M1 killer chases are commonly called boring and dull by survivors even though I still win. I just chase, knock down almost 100% of pallets, and do 0 mind games. Still wins.
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No matter the MMR, the game can only give you what is available.
If in your area / playing time are no weak killers you won´t get weak killers.
It is as simple as that.
Also as new killer you can get a 4 man death squad also. Did i mention MMR doesn´t work very good?
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- DBD has one of the largest active playerbases of online pc/console games. It should be able to get a fairly decent matchup without much time spent. DBD averages 30k+ players on Steam alone (not counting Epic or consoles or the 100k+ peak player counts). That's minimum 6k matches at a time. Average match time of 15 mins or 900 seconds (I think that is a high estimate). That's 6.7 matches a second starting. In 1 minute 2,000+ players in 402 matches have launched. That is plenty of churn and players to choose from for an even match.
- Queue time for survivors is near instant (with 100% bp bonus) during NA daylight hours meaning there is a large number of killers available to pick from.
- MMR works awesome in many other online games, I can list examples if necessary, but we probably all know them. In those games I average 45-55% win rate after finding my mmr equilibrium (anywhere from 10 to 100 matches depending on the game and mmr system). My point is whatever secret mechanism they are using in this mmr system is broken at the lower mmr. The devs might not realize that if they only play at medium or high mmr from years of experience.
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Yes, but it is worldwide.
Afaik the search radius is limited due to otherwise high ping times. So your specific playerbase might be limited at certain times.
All we heard so far is, that the MMR range can be pretty high or weird sometimes.
And that leads me back to MMR is not working so well overall.
You can check here in the forums very very different experiences with the MMR.
From really good games with great teammates and good killers to new killers with veteran survs and veteran killers with new players. The real numbers only has BHVR, so we don´t know.
From what i read here MMR seems still a bit of a mess.
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I would expect daylight hours in NA and Europe would represent 80%+ of the active player numbers during that time, so still hundreds of matches launching a minute even if you cut my numbers in half. When I have played at weird hours like 2am Mountain time I was getting matched with Europeans waking up and my ping was rough.
Yes, MMR has issues at all ranges. However, I'm fairly certain the mid and high lvl survivor MMR isn't seeing the issue the low level survivors are. If they were getting 85% loss rates the forums would be flooded. It seems like a lot now, but most of those I've read are upset about 35-40% win rates for survivors. Most lower tier players never visit the forums so their voice is under represented. Many people on the forum have been here for 3+ years meaning they are extremely experienced and likely in top 10% of player base.
This is a feedback forum, so I'm providing feedback to an issue that seems ignored. Devs seem to be catering to their pros with perks like Hyper Focus which is unusable by 80% of players and probably 95% of console players, but now they are going to balance around pros burning through gens with it. Hex Ruin had this issue years ago too when it caused gen repair damage and lockout for every skill check that was only good and not great, clearly no testing or thought given to less skilled players. By gamer standards I'm old and don't have the lightning precision of my teens and 20s anymore, but I still want to enjoy the game. If they balance around the top 10% it ruins the game for many casual and low tier players.
I digress from my original issue though. MMR matchmaking needs work. Their are weak killer players that need to be matched against weak players. I would rather spend 2-3 minutes to find a good match, than 30 seconds to find a instant loss match. So I'm asking they tighten down the matchmaking times instead of going with a huge open pool to cater to the pros who don't want 5-10 min queue times.
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Add another 21 loses to the total and 0 wins. At least loses don't take long. Downed in first 20 seconds on 4 games as Wesker and billy spawned on top of me. Dead on first hook in 5 games because teammates never attempted rescue, no camping killer either. Tunneled out first in 6 games. 11 matches where we never got any gens done. Did my entire daily quest "be chased for 120 seconds" in first chase of one game...teammates again did no gens. 1 Match where we actually powered and opened exit gates, but killer blocked them with Blood Warden even though he didn't have that perk equipped (hurray low mmr terrible cheaters).
I'm just playing now to see how ridiculous this can get. These pro killers we are matched against absolutely smoke the newbs I'm soloq with. It's a miracle any beginners play this game long enough to become experienced.
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Bhvr turned solo queue into a dumpster fire to "balance" their kill rates, since they claimed themself them being too low. I mean lets be honest: all the survivor nerfs and killer buffs didn't effect swf much. So their escape rate is probably unchanged, solo q however went from being bad to absolutely unplayable - thats how they will reach their ~60% kill rate instead of the 50% from before the patch. They don't care they made a whole part of the game unplayable as long as the kill rates are statistically "balanced" now.
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Perhaps, but I think some soloq is doing decently at mid mmr and higher. They are at least getting competitive, close games sometimes. On the rare occasion I get competent teammates we can typically get close to finishing 4-5 gens unless we make a large mistake. At the low mmr though, it is just a quick 5-6 minute slaughter. Normally 2nd is hooked before 1st unhooked, then those 1st is unhooked and they heal while 3rd hook happens and 2nd hooked enters phase 2. Then game is practically over. That's assuming we don't get the normal dc on the first or second down.
I really like how other large multiplayer games do it. League of Legends groups toxic, afk, and quiters together into a pool to match together. DbD has the report system for unsportmanlike behavior, should be trivial to lump those together if they reach a certain % of reports vs games played.
That said, balance and mmr pooling tricks are a digression from the standing issue that low mmr play is commonly a grind of losing dozens of games in a row with the only relief being the lucky hatch or killer letting you leave. Most mmr systems take into account streaks of losses and makes the matching significantly easier if you have say 5+ losses in a row. That's another trick you can do with it. None of this is hard to code and should be pretty easy to tweak. However, they really need the numbers to tweak right. As for us players, transparency on how the system worked and our standing in it would be a big aid.
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If BHVR trusted their SBMM system to be accurate and effective, then the ranking would be shown to us. If we can't see it, then we can't evaluate or (accurately) criticize it...
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I can tell you that MMR issues are time dependent. When I play in the afternoon/early evening in central Europe, everything is fine most times. But after about 10-11pm you can't play soloq anymore because your teammates just get worse every minute. Killer on the other hand is quite easy during these times, whereas it can be quite hard and sweaty during the evening.
2 Days ago i played Wesker at 1am and got 2 players with maybe 100hrs (I have 5k). And I played Wesker a LOT the past days and was quite successful too.
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I actually understand why they don't post it. Lot of games don't like to share it anymore. People get overly stressed if they see the number go down (Loss Aversion) to the point they won't play out of fear of losing it. That's why some games have two pools, ranked and unranked. Both have mmr numbers behind them (Normally), but they only let you see it in the ranked one or see it through a mask (like levels). Since they decoupled the ranks in dbd from the mmr though, there is now no way to know at all your rating compared to someone else.
The fact they don't even have a statistics page makes it harder too. I remember back in the day Starcraft had a win/lose rating which they dropped visibility on because they didn't want people not playing out of fear of ruining their win/loss ratios.
This has always baffled me. I notice it too. At night my survivor teammates become hilariously bad and my killer games are a breeze. I'm not sure what the cause is, there is still tens of thousands of players on which should be sufficient for a fair matchup without long queue time.
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@Ciabe I can absolutely understand the sentiment of hiding it in order to prevent people from worrying about rank loss etc. - but I do not think that's why BHVR has chosen this current path. They still punish players by taking their pips away even though it has no bearing on rank or matchmaking. If BHVR cared about how players felt (losing status due to poor game choices / outcomes), then de-pip would not be a thing at all. Personally I think they hid their ranking system (while leaving the unnecessary pip system intact) so that people couldn't post / discuss / complain about the disparities in rank they would undoubtedly observe. Queue times are very fast, which I will not complain about, however it is clear that this is because the rank pool is widened instead.
Public statistics would be very nice to see. BHVR's lack of transparency has always been highly frustrating. Obviously the topic of "ranked vs casual" has been discussed to death for many years at this point - I'm not sure how BHVR would implement changes, or what it would mean for queue times and bloodpoint payouts. It's definitely not a discussion that's going to be solved or abandoned any time soon.
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My queue times are almost instant. So there have to be enough players.
Maybe they did something with their change a while back and loosened the Matchmaking ranges in the night hours so you don't have long queues. Because before all the MMR tests I had to wait about 5min after 8pm on survivor whereas killer was instant. But the matches were still OKish. Now they are horrible.
I'm just glad that I'm Iri1 on both sides now and can chill a bit.
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Yeah, I'm a very late arrival to the party, so I've missed a lot of the history and arguments in the past on casual vs ranked for dbd anyway.
I'm nearing 300 losses now, but I did snag 1 more win. I came up with a theory last night based on the data those hackers put out about the mmr ratings. I suspect once you cross 1600 you enter into the big pool for matchmaking that has everyone 1600+ including all the pros at 2200-2400. The catch in their system is I suspect once you enter the big pool, you can never leave it no matter how low you drop again to prevent smurfing. On top of that, It feels like they still group survivors with similar ratings as you (hence my crappy teammates), but they just take whatever killer has been waiting the longest no matter how high they are instead of letting a low rated killer get a match first.
Couple months ago I was playing regularly with some very good SWF that likely carried my poorly skilled self above 1600. In most of these mmr systems 1500 is your mid and starting point, your bell curve of players center around that with high around 2200 and low around 800. However, DbD supposedly starts players around 800. The issue is probably 40-50% of your player base will cross that 1600 rating mark at some point if the ratings still center their weight around 1500. Matching 40-50% of your players into one giant pool is a recipe for disaster. Which effectively means they are sacrificing their beginner to mid tier players on a silver platter for the top 10% to just slaughter in the name of quick queues for them.
I would really prefer if they could just disclose how it worked instead of forcing us to speculate. Feels like the blind men and an elephant problem.
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