Hook Camping.
there has to be something that can be done about hook campers.... make it bannable record the games. or make it something like they have to be so far from the hook like 36meeters before you even start going down on hook timer. i dont know. i just know campers not getting in trouble makes a lot of games trash to play when the killer is just staring at you on the hook. very unpleasant. and I would also like to know why nothing has been done about this yet.
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Use perk reinsurance. Also use this time when such a person is on hook to do gens as quickly as possible.
Doing this will result in camper getting 1-0 kills (or actually stopping cheap facecamps). Sure enough, you also need to play efficiently and actually hook trade once all reassurences from all survivors run up.
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The solution shouldn't have to be to buy the dlc.
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There doesn't need to be a punishment for camping.
As for even base game changes to stop this. I don't think Ive seen a super great way.
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shrine of secrets dawg, theres a chance
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Nah
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The solution is to make killers more powerful. What? Am I crazy? No - it will make sense if you listen.
When I play killer I will always camp someone to stage two if I lose two gens before getting my first hook. The pace of the game is simply too fast if survivors focus on slamming generators.
Imagine for example that a base mechanic were added to the game that if a killer were beyond 20m away from a hook then the entity would block one generator from being worked on until that survivor was rescued. However this would be different in that the killer could kick the generator and no one could work the generator until the survivor were rescued or they died on the hook if the killer were beyond 20m.
This would literally force the killer to want to leave the area to block the generator. This would force the survivor whose gen was blocked to go and make the save.
The underlying problem is that the survivor objective can be finished in 4 minutes but the killer objective takes 6-9 minutes. This is why killers tunnel.
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100% not true. The test was made and killers failed in this regard.
Killers were never stronger then just after 6.1 patch making there chases strongest they have ever been in whole DBD history. Also killers never camped and tunneled as much, as after patch 6.1 (first days after the patch, people had some serious problems doing more then 2-3 gens before 4K). This only changed in patch 6.2 where camping got serious nerf.
The end result being - people will camp & tunnel if it is easy to do and it gives them good chance to win. So to reduce camp/tunnel in the game, you need to make this strategy "bad" (it's low risk, so it should yield low reward). This can be done by e.g. making reassurance basekit or making it not being behind paywall + buffing it's distance and duration. And this has also been tested to work, because people camp WAAAAY less after 6.2 in comparison to 6.1 patch.
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-"The test was made and killers failed in this regard."
What test was this? LOL.
Survivors tunnel gens so killers tunnel survivors. Since the survivor objective is shorter the killer is forced to do something to "gain" more time. That is why they tunnel.
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No. Survivors don't "tunnel" gens. At least good survivors don't. It's inefficient (not counting last 1 or 2 generators). Going 2+ survivors on single gen means more problems if killer comes and penalty for doing that (with proof, the penalty is very low, but it's still there). So that's wrong on your part again.
And again. I have never seen so much camping as we could have seen just after 6.1. The reason being, that there was no counterplay - meaning it was minimum the killer needed to do (just get 1 quick chase to get 1 survivor out of game) and slamming gens did nothing to it thanks to 90s generators.
So to repeat myself - killer had every opportunity to not camp/tunnel after 6.1. What we actually saw was instead of NOT camping/tunneling, we saw majority of killers camp/tunnel. So to quote you "The solution is to make killers more powerful. " is wrong as proven by 6.1 patch. And as proven by 6.2 patch - the solution to camp is make camping LESS powerful.
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"No. Survivors don't "tunnel" gens"
So that means you often get a generator to 20% then leave that generator for no reason and get another generator to 20% and then make sure all the generators are at 20% before working any generator from 20-40%?
No - You've never done that. You try to complete a whole generator.
Also killer really didn't get more powerful with the 6.1 patch. The best killer perks were nerfed to oblivion. Gens were made 10 seconds longer but now everyone is using Prove Thyself and Hyperfocus. Good players are completing gens faster than ever before. Breaking a pallet 10% faster does nothing - streamers made videos before the patch showing what 100% faster pallet breaking looked like. It did nothing because most maps have insane pallet density throughout the map.
Pop Goes the Weasel used to save me about 120-180 seconds per game. I did the math in another thread and on average kicking low-middle progress generators only saves 50-60 seconds with nerfed pop.
Meanwhile Survivors get 10 seconds of borrowed time base kit. Killers don't get any perk to compesnate. Much less Borrowed time was the only meta perk that got buffed instead of nerfed. It makes no sense.
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We all saw killers who camp their first hook on 5 gens. Why? Because, obviously, they can afford that without fear of loosing. They have the whole time of the universe after fast down 20 seconds into the game catching survs off guard with Lethal and how they decide to use that time? Right. They don't even have to kick gens or force the entity to block it with your new mechanic, they have enough time just standing there. No reason to left the hook, literally zero, no special mechanics with blocking gens after kick will help. It's enough for them to get at least two kills without chases, mindgames and map control. Sometimes they get not only win with 2-3-4k but also 27-30k bloodpoints thanks to all hooktrades.
So, survivors don't do gens? Killers camp and tunnel because they can afford that and kill one person before even 3 gens can be completed and then play 3v1. Survivors do gens? Killers camp and tunnel because there's nothing else they can do to secure kills. Sounds like broken unsolvable cycle.
If you camp only when you feel insecure having one hook after 2-3 gens doesn't mean all killers have same mentality. Basically your situation is ok for devs - securing second stage or proxy camping is a legit strategy they don't want to remove.
The only two reasons now force killers to left hooks in 5-gen situations: the person feel camping bad, or feel camping boring. But that's an effective strategy, sometimes it's so effective even feeling bad or bored can't stop it. You can offer more effective strategies, but those can't beat camping until camping itself becomes less effective (or effective for only specified situations). Like, imagine you offer 1 mil dollars for everyone who agrees to make smth but if they want they can get 500k without doing anything. There are always people who just take 500k for free and left. That's enough for them. I don't camp because I feel too bad but I'd definitely get 500k for free instead of trying to get 1 mill somehow. Even 100k would be ok for me lol. Anyway, they can agree and try to get 1 mill if the "free" option is 1k only. Or 1$ only. Because it's less than enough. But until it's enough to win they'll be doing that with all imaginable options and incentives you'd offer them for not to.
That's how people work. The only way to beat camping is to make it like throwing pawns in chess. It could be fun thing to do but you can't win that way. You either camp/tunnel for your fun (or revenge for clicks or any other reasons) or you play for win. There shouldn't be punishment for camping but camping has to be smth like afk. No one punishes you for being afk, or for being Bubba-basement-chest-defender, you just get nothing out of that.
But well... the game should be remade for that. Especially, if devs want some camping (like proxy camping) be reliable. Until that, everything is band-aid fix.
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>> So that means you often get a generator to 20% then leave that generator for no reason and get another generator to 20% and then make sure all the generators are at 20% before working any generator from 20-40%?
>> No - You've never done that. You try to complete a whole generato r.
Wrong analogy. If there is a good reason to leave gen (killer is nearby or another surv needs help), you leave gen and sometimes even forget about it for good. Moreover, if survivors are trying to "tunnel" 80-90% generator despite the killer being super protective, having all perks like jolt, overcharge and so on and forcing you to leave that gen, you can be punished for tunneling - you can be injured, hooked and loose this gen completely. Or you can let your teammate die on hook finishing this one gen and loose 1/4 of team force.
So no, normally survivors don't tunnel gens, it's more like hooking afk person. They're afk, you have nothing else to do, why shouldn't you hook/repair them if they stand still and let you do that? Gens can't protect themselves from tunneling, that's the killer who can punish survivors for tunneling and force them to change their target from one gen to another and spread gen-stages. And in most cases survivors happily change their target if that's not a strategically important 3-gen (just like you, securing second stage), because their gen-tunneling is more dangerous and punishable if killer wants to make it so. They literally can loose because of that strategy (and a lot of games were lost because survivors committed for finishing gen with no good reason for that).
But no one can hook killer and deny their intention to "finish" 99% survivor. Perks can slow down them (like gen-regression perks) but there's no real punishment. And no real reason to not tunnel (just like survivors have no reason to leave gen unfinished if there's no killer and no hooked teammates nearby).
s/ it's not fun. I can say you same thing: killer tunnels survivors so survivors tunnel gens. They don't have options to regress their hook stages so they have to tunnel gens to "gain" enough time to survive the possible tunneling and camping. If they don't they can find themselves dead with only one gen completed. If we make effective camping and tunneling impossible, then there's enough time for survs to play and complete their objectives and they won't trying to gen rush you, simple as that! You don't camp because you can't and survivors don't genrush you because they don't have to. s/
I'm pretty sure, you'll say smth about "they still will genrush no matter what". Because that's true.
s/ Interesting how killers don't want to prevent gen tunneling with their skill and perks and just stay near hook, crying on forums and begging devs to slowdown gens and punish survivors for tunneling gens out. If survivors get gen 99 done, you've already lost it, it's your fault you let them tunnel your gens, accept your skill issues and don't ask for second chance perks. Git gud /s
I mean, camping nerf isn't a bad idea. The fact that all killers are so protective about camping just highlights problems with game design. And leaving camping as it is doesn't solve those problems. It's not us-vs-them, it's problem for both sides just for different reasons. Both sides' reasons should be addressed. It is not like BHVR will nerf camping for survivors and that's it.
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And here we go again. Your example with 20% gens would be same as getting close to survivor and then abandoning it. Maybe hit him once and then running away as much as possible. Tunneling is focusing single survivor just after unhook with single intention - to get him out of the game ASAP. Survivor's version on a gen is bringing BNP with best commodious toolbox and extra charges and hyperfocus + proof + streetwise + built to last and going 2+ person on a same generator. You can see that in some matches from time to time. But most people just don't do that.
Yet there is quite a number of killers (I would say 30% in my MMR range) that tunnel survivors like this (even ignoring downed survivor just to get that one unhooked). This is what we are talking about. Not doing generator 1 by 1. Maybe 2 and someone bringing proof to (not entirely) mitigate debuff that the game already provides.
Also killers DID GET MUCH more powerful after 6.1. I would gladly wipe out EVERY. SINGLE. CHANGE. from 6.1 patch if it ended up in 80s gens, longer hit CD and longer sprint after hit + DS revert (the length - endgame could even stay the way it was). Breaking the pallets would be bonus I could fully live without. And I have to mention it again because you might have not played right after the patch or you might suffer amnesia (I have no idea which one), but basically every match after 6.1 for a few days ended up in a 4K. Queue times for killer and survivor instantly swapped + quite some more - making some streamers complain that they can no longer play any killer matches. So saying 6.1 wasn't VERY CLEARLY killer buff dream patch requires some very selective vision to say it politely.
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"it's your fault you let them tunnel your gens, accept your skill issues"
I watched Otz play a map on Lerys within the last two weeks. They were a SWF using callouts and finished two gens before he ever got a chase. Otz finally caught one and camped them in the basement.
So you're calling Otz bad becuase he camped someone to death to apply pressure? Seems Not Legit.
DBD has rules that massively favor the survivors. That is why killers need to camp to win. Baby killers (usually this means survivor mains) playing vs baby survivors can do the no perk AFK challenge with any killer and win. It's not like that when you face teams who play as if they are trying to win a $100,000 tournament. People love to say "those teams are rare" - they might be for you but they are not for me, Otz, Truetalent and most of the big name streamers. I'm not a streamer but I get very skilled players just like I see on those streams.
"they still will genrush no matter what". Because that's true."
And that is why killers tunnel. When survivors efficiently repair gens you are forced to tunnel to apply pressure. You can hook one person three times and they die or you can hook three different people and you have nothing. This is the same as applying 90 seconds of repair to one generator or applying 90 seconds of repair to three generators.
If you want to remove tunneling from the game that's fine but you have to remove the ability for survivors to tunnel gens as effectively as they do now. Then you can wave a magic wand and make killers not want to tunnel. Unless you do both there is no way the game can change. Why? Because if you hard limit tunneling the killers will stop playing because there will be no way to beat good players on maps that are overall just too safe with too many pallets/vaults.
The game would be very different if the devs had done something like removed 1 pallet or vault from the map as you rank up moving from ash to yellow to green to purple to red ranks. Some of the maps would probably be fair if they played at "red ranks" with -4 pallets. Imagine for example any of the farm maps with -4 pallets. What if the Shack pallet starts removed at the start of the game?
-"Tunneling is focusing single survivor just after unhook with single intention"
It's a waste of time to debate you if you think for a second survivors don't do the same thing to break 3 gens. Getting my gens tunneled out is just as frustrating when playing killer as it is to get camped and tunneled out of a game as survivor.
The difference is that most survivors feel it's fine to tunnel generators because the generator asset is a NPC object even though it is tied to the killer's win condition.
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You clearly play one side only. That is the reason for your posts. Calling true good killer (in same sentence as otz - and those 2 are miles apart) is dead giveaway.
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I watched Otz play a map on Lerys within the last two weeks. They were a SWF using callouts and finished two gens before he ever got a chase. Otz finally caught one and camped them in the basement.
So you're calling Otz bad becuase he camped someone to death to apply pressure? Seems Not Legit.
You missed sarcasm-sign, didn't you? That was the whole point. Just like survivours who can't deny tunneling even with all those OTRs and DSs perks. It's not a skill issue for them, it's a game design problem that they have to deal with tunneling using all perks and they can't. They don't have to "learn how to play" and it's not "their fault, they let killer tunnel them". It's a problem for both sides. Same problem. One big problem.
"they still will genrush no matter what". Because that's true."
And that is why killers tunnel. When survivors efficiently repair gens you are forced to tunnel to apply pressure.
Again. That was my whole point. You told me that if we slow gens somehow and let killers reason to leave the hook to slow gens, they'll leave the hook. But if we slow killers down somehow will it stop survivours from repairing gens? No, they won't stop, moreover they will be able to finish gens even faster than before. Same with killers, they ALREADY can apply pressue by camping and tunneling. You can offer them a second option but they already have one and they have no reason to exchange them. And all "nerf survs" options will make camping even stronger.
What if the Shack pallet starts removed at the start of the game?
Killers still will be tunneling, because it will be even more easy now. And survs will be even more genrushing because there's more dangerous for them. You can balance maps somehow but AFTER the problem is solved, and you can't solve tunneling by that, just like you can't fix "genrush" by nerfing killers and making them less threteaning.
Because if you hard limit tunneling the killers will stop playing because there will be no way to beat good players on maps that are overall just too safe with too many pallets/vaults.
"It's not us-vs-them, it's problem for both sides just for different reasons. Both sides' reasons should be addressed. It is not like BHVR will nerf camping for survivors and that's it."
The difference is that most survivors feel it's fine to tunnel generators because the generator asset is a NPC object even though it is tied to the killer's win condition.
You talk like survivours somehow decide to MOCK killers with repairing gens. No, the survivours feel it's NESSESSARY to tunnel gerenators or they will be tunneled themselves, just like killers feel it's nessessary to tunnel and camp in order to get kills. And a lot of killers tunnel survivors EVEN THOUGH they aren't NPC, they are real humans who feel felings and who want to play the game and don't want to be kicked out with 4k points after 2 minutes. But here we are. It's not like "oh, you don't want me tunnel, then stop doing gens", it doesn't work, killers don't know whether survs be doing gens effectively or not, they camp and tunnel in advance. And survs tunnel gens with the same reason in mind. That's why I think your solution won't work. It's a cycle, a circle.
These problems are connected, you can't bring gen slowdown in game and say "now killers have no reason to camp". They have their reasons, the only big reason is camping works. I repeat my point but you have to make camping uneffective strategy, only then camping will be stoped. But at the same time you have to address gen speed (by speed itself, by adding other objectives, map balance or killer buff). Gen speed has to be addressed at the same time as a second problem, not as a solution for the first one.
We don't need punish camping, but camping should be reworked to be as effective as AFK. But to reach that goal we have to change gameflow itself, including both hooks and generators. I don't think it's possible without "Dead by Daylight 2".
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A simple idea in this case to deter the camp:
After hooking a Survivor, if the killer stays 5 seconds within 16 meters of the hook, they suffer the immobilize effect for 10 seconds.
When the killer is immobile, he cannot move, strike, or use his power.
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Camping will never be bannable....and shouldn't be. Should it be made less effective yes...
I shouldn't even need to explain why this is a bad idea and would kill the game...
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"These problems are connected"
That's what I have been saying all along. If you tunnel gens it forces the killer to tunnel someone out to "catch up". Unfortunately most killers are conditioned by the survivors they play against to tunnel someone out and then "play normally".
"we have to change gameflow itself, including both hooks and generators"
There are actually very simple solutions (note plural that I came up with in under 5 minutes). The problem I think is that the devs are quite happy with the current model in terms of income.
Why don't I share the answer? If you're good at something never do it for free.
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Personally just make DS 5 seconds again. Basekit BT being 10 seconds is pretty solid. I just find DS underwhelming unless I can position myself next to a strong loop. You could disable Killer powers as well, which would hurt the top Killers like Nurse more than M1 Killers like Trapper.
I don't see as much Reassurance as I thought I would (I wish you could use it above basement, but I guess it's good for Killers to have a strong place) and honestly Kinship is underrated, but best used in a SWF. Off the Record is really the best anti-tunnel perk IMO.
In terms of Killers who camp / tunnel because it's effective, if they read the situation correctly camping / tunneling is not the best option. I believe Killers think they can get away with it more because DS isn't perceived as strong enough so they don't respect it anymore. But it's understandable to think that getting a survivor out of the game as quickly as possible is the best way to control the game and ultimately get more kills. Because it is. The question is how quickly that can be accomplished and what you give up in terms of opportunity cost. If it looks like tunneling / camping won't cost you multiple gens, then it's likely the right choice.
Then there are Killers who will just facecamp even when it's clear they are throwing the game. I don't know how the game could distinguish between the two, but it's just unfortunate for that first survivor. Hopefully his team can punish that behavior, but usually these Killers don't even care. I don't think BHVR could nerf camping hard enough, but slowing down hook progress couldn't hurt IMO.
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Ah, that's why your solution is to give killers ability of blocking gens by kicking. It's so cheap it's actually free. I see. Good :)
But yeah, devs are happy, I think that too. Bandaids are all we can count on in that situation.
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The only time Survivors "tunnel gens" is when they GenB4Fren, when they pop the gen they are currently working on before going for the rescue. That is also the strategy Survivors are supposed to do to counter camping.
Popping a gen (or all gens for that matter) doesn't mean the killer cannot play the game anymore, and as another poster mentioned that would be like a killer stopping a chase when they are 10m away from a survivor without a reason to.
Breaking a Pallet does nothing - a normal 4.6 killer chasing a normal 4.0 survivor will catch up after a 2.6s pallet kick in 17.33s. The improved 2.34 now takes 15.6s. That is 1.733 saved chase seconds per pallet. Also the old speed boost and hit cooldown gave an estimated 20s of an injured survivor running, now it gives ~18s. Those are not nothing nor insignificant.
Pop vs other gen regression - Old pop could be applied to whatever gen you want, but you have to take the travel time you lose into account. How many of those 120-180s did you lose going towards a gen, kicking it, and not chasing a survivor providing pressure. Also SH:PR regression numbers were unchanged, and most other gen kick perks were buffed. Also Eruption gives 25 incapacitated seconds in addition to the 9 seconds of regression. That makes every average value Eruption 34s compared to Pop's 20s. Eruption could also have more or fewer, so in a best case scenario Eruption gives you 84 gen seconds when hitting 3 people trying to prevent a 3-gen or finish a final gen.
Basekit BT no compensation for killers - Killers received the lion's share of the advantage here. The old circumstance for countering hard tunnel off hook would be 1. Hit into BT causing Deep Wound 2. DS after getting downed and 3. DH to delay the chase even longer. The new circumstance is 1. Hit into (basekit or perk) BT causing Deep Wound 2. OTR oh wait Deep Wound blocks that hmm well maybe 3. DH to delay? nope, Deep Wound also blocks that. So before there were 3 meaningful steps to counter tunneling, now there is only one. What if someone didn't have multiple of those perk effects? Well then in the old case the survivor could fake out DS by hiding in a locker. The killer now has to risk DS whether it is there or not. In the current case if you cannot hear the survivor's grunts of pain you swing instantly (to proc OTR), and if you do hear them then you count to 10 (or wait for the visible speed boost to run out). This claim also is ignoring the above mathed out basekit T1 Brutal Strength and STBFL at 2 stacks.
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Lately 9 out of 10 games go through camp or tunnel.Because the developers gave great trump cards to the hands of the killers.Regress and block without going to gens( dead mans,pain resonance,dead lock ) This allowed the killers to focus only on survivors instead of jen control.if he knocks down the survivor, perks will do the other things he needs to do.In addition, with the decrease of chase times, it easily deades the player from the game by simply making a tunnel and ends the game directly.
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And that's why I bring reinsurance also to my soloQ. It's not perfect, but it works against this
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Hook camping is a hard thing to really deal with the way the game works you can't simply make hook camping impossible the latest update is the furthest they've gone to give survivors an option to make hook camping pretty ineffective via reassurance. The game just doesn't function properly without tunneling/camping/slugging sadly I really wish they would redesign elements of the game so it was more about chase than just boring macro.
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it doesn't work other than filling the perk slot
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"The only time Survivors "tunnel gens" is when they GenB4Fren, when they pop the gen they are currently working on before going for the rescue."
That is not true. When I say survivors tunnel gens what that means is that they try to finish a complete generator. If something interrupts they will go back to that generator. They won't start a new one. The killer if they are playing smart/efficiently will do the same thing with survivors.
The killer has zero incentive to hook someone they have never hooked before. Imagine for example if you gave survivors a 4% slowdown to all actions for hooking someone new for the first time. Hook all 4 survivors once and you add 16% permanent slowdown. Add Dying light on top of that and that might be a decent perk assuming that 4% slowdown were a base mechanic.
But we don't have anything like that so the killer is only rewarded for eliminating survivors. Likewise survivors are rewarded for completing whole generators.
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It's a vicious cycle... Camping and Tunneling due to Genrush and Genrush due to Camping and Tunneling
(Sigh*)
Yes some of the changes were to address this... but other changes made it easier
The 5-10 second BT bsekit.... 90 charges on Gens
Prove Thyself, Toolboxes, BNP are viewed as must haves at this point... which lessen what other perks and Items to bring (for the most part)
The changes to Gen regression was both good and bad... Killers aren't using Ruin as much, but they are using Call Of Brine/ Overcharge/ PR/ Eruption... which can be a problem
But they didn't think of multiple Survivors on a Gen (going from 90 seconds to 56 seconds... unless I'm missing something)... And Gen regression being .25 charges per second make Gen take longer to regress any Gen
SO in my opinion to stop this Camping and Tunneling... the Killer must be incentivized to go away from the Hook... and perks aren't enough
Raising the base Gen regression might be something they could try (it'll even lessen the "4 Gen regression builds)
Changing Deep Wounds might be another thing they could do (But that'll only help Legion and Deathslinger)
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A, Killers already have 61% killrate. You would need to compensate for these changes to be acceptable.
B, Also if you make regression any stronger, you would need to make somehow sure effective distance between all gens is (much) higher. I am already seeing killers, that will just camp 3-gen from the start of the game.
In this case 3-genning is not survivor's choise. It's killers. He never gave oportunity to do those 3 (meaning he gave us all the other gens for free). Such a killer never commits to longer chases then say 20-30s and then he makes sure to regress whole 3gen.
If you make regression any stronger and keep regression perks the way they are, then this would be viable winning tactics with no counterplay (but bringing 3-4 BNP in case you find sich killer). So no. Thank you, but I can do without your proposition.
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Obviously, it goes without saying that Regression perks will have to be changed... same with everything Gen related
Maps are also to blame thanks for pointing that out
The Devs have said to not take what they give out (stats) seriously... and the 61/39% are proof of that
How many matches did someone quit? How many matches had someone suicide?
It will take wide sweeping changes to lessen Camping and Tunneling... and that is because the Skill in this game has reached it's limit
Also how many matches were over before the Killer has gotten 4 (separate) hooks?
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You didn't explain why that would be bad.
If the killer knows that he will be frozen for 10 seconds, if he remains 5 seconds near the hook, he will not want to camp, he will want to leave in order to be able to move.
I corrected the camp.
Someone come and argue against me.
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Since you failed to address all of the other points I made in that comment I shall have to assume that is because you now agree and find them to be true.
As far as Survivor's committing time to progressed gens, that is an action that has costs and benefits. As Killer you gain for more value when the Survivor falls prey to the "sunk cost fallacy", and tries to go back on the gen you already kicked. Now they are in a disadvantageous position and must commit to dropping a nearby pallet to slow you down or give up a free hit. You can then kick the gen again and start back where you were before with the advantage of a damage state on the Survivor or environment's limited resources. Also if they go back again then they can either give another free hit into a down, or your chase with another Survivor can proc Eruption on them, making them waste a potential ~34 gen seconds.
A Killer committing to hard chase off of hook or select out of 2 Survivors on a gen the Survivor who was hooked before has no such risks, and only has rewards. Even if the Killer immediately goes for the unhooked Survivor, they can hear out OTR or not so they can know whether to swing early or count to 11.
As far as incentive to hook unique Survivors I thought of a solution in my thread series "DBD Problems and Potential Fixes", specifically "5/10 Spreading the Pain VS Killing Early", which would basically give a diminished Grim Embrace basekit that can proc twice. Overall though I think the 6.1.0 changes have swung a bit too far in Killer's favor, and giving your suggestion of more carrot would be unwise. At this point I think the stick should be applied. I would go as far as to reverse your suggestion and speed up Survivor's gen speeds on non-unique/spread hooks instead. Probably 2-4% bonus to each Survivor that wasn't hooked, and doubles if already existing. That way with the toggle tunnel on 6 hooks between 2 survivors the 2 remaining Survivors get 96% gen speed bonus each (if 3%). I would even lock in the bonus for the new minimum when a survivor is killed. This would obviously need refining but base concept of reversing your idea seems sound.
I am of the belief that you can't force someone to play fun or fair, but you should make it such a bad idea as to punish you when you choose to do so, regardless of Killer or Survivor player.
Edit: As -> and, it was supposed to be and when I revised the sentence from one that used as
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Your solution will lead to 1 thing, survivors being chased, divebombing and looping near the hook just to get the killer immobilized. It would be abusable against killers who arent even camping, but playing the game properly.
Not to mention sometimes you need more than 5 seconds, if you down a 2nd person trying to bodyblock/sabo plus have to kick a gen and pallet, and make sure you can safely pick up the 2nd person. The only way ot could work is if there is a 16m deadzone around the hook, and if i have to explain why that is terrible, then you need more time with the game.
So no sorry you didnt solve anything.
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"Since you failed to address all of the other points I made in that comment I shall have to assume that is because you now agree and find them to be true."
Sith Logic doesn't apply to a discussion - so no.
-"I am of the belief that you can't force someone to play fun or fair, but you should make it such a bad idea as to punish you when you choose to do so, regardless of Killer or Survivor player."
You should familiarize yourself about the bet betwen the sun and the wind about who can make a man take off his jacket. No matter how hard the wind blows the man firmly grasps his jacket. The sun gently beams warmth down on the man and he chooses to take it off.
Killers are being forced to tunnel vs strong survivors to have any kind of chance at a fair game. Some killers do choose to tunnel in games where they don't need to do that and other people do it without realizing the current game is not "tryhard".
The best reward we had for scoring multiple different hooks on multiple survivors was Pop goes the Weasel/BBQ. Those were eliminated from being valuable and look what happened - we have more camping as a result. Killer needs some kind of base kit reward for hooking new survivors. No joke - Dying Light Base kit (with the survivor buffs removed) would have been a solid buff for killer. Survivor got BT for free and Killer didn't get a free perk.
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Truetalent faces much more difficult survivors during most of his stream than Otz. True takes a lot more paid viewer builds and when he plays poorly with someone else's build gets criticized. Let's see how you play a hag game with random BS perks that will not help you. He understands the game and always has little teaching tidbits in his show (which Otz does far less often).
They are both very skilled and when they play "full tilt" on strong killers they can both flatten most people they play against.
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Not one. They got several half petks. Half brutal strength, 2 save the best stacks, some old thana stacks AND to top it off reduced survivor sprint. Killers got way more then just 1 basekit BT into their basekit
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No. Relatively speaking - True is just bad killer, that is being carried by hard camp/tunnel. But you being his fan explains a lot.
Otz is absolutely better general killer. But there are even better specialist killers - like e.g. spookyloops is much better huntress then otz.
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I never said I was his fan. I think you have a biased opinion. I've watched almost all of the big killer main streamers. I usually don't watch true play specifically. I watch people who are entertaining or have the potential to teach me something.
If you do not like tunneling then you can blame Otz for steering the game in the direction that kills are better than hooks. True like him or not wanted the game to focus on how many hooks did you get. When he focused on trying to get 8+ hooks per game it made him look like a worse killer. They both have a very high hour count and understand the game well.
I can play Nemesis better than both of them but that's basically the only killer I play when I play killer and they play the whole roster. Otz for example often goes for very risky tentacle hits that rarely land (often including multiple hits out of a window). One of the last times I saw true play I saw him miss a whip against a survivor that was looping a main wall building. The survivor juked out at the last second so the whip didn't land and he was not sure why that missed. If you move your whip outside to in then there is no room for the survivor to dodge.
Are they bad at Nemesis? No - but they lack the Nuance and dedication to playing one killer all the time.
If you compare the two Otz is much worse at Huntress and slightly worse as Blight. I have not seen either really play Nurse in a long time so I can't comment there. Both play Spirit well. We could go down the entire list but its a moot point. Since I did mention it previously Otz is the worse Nemesis of the two.
If you watch both regularly you will notice that they are basically in the same time zone but one of them ends their show before noon my time and one often streams until 6pm (and that used to be later). What does that mean? When you are playing the game matters tremendously. If you log in to play killer at 4am during the week you are not going to face off against many swf at all. But if you play killer past midnight until about 2 am that is all you will see : ultra try hard swfs.
I doubt you are good enough to really say you are better than either at DBD (except at one specific killer) so saying one of them is bad makes you look bad. They're getting paid to play video games all day and you are not.
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Most of the time that extra 10% you get from killer does nothing because it is non focused.What do you get with 1/2 Brutal? Nothing. Why? Because there are too many pallets/vaults close together. Truetaent made a video where he showcased more than 120% faster pallet breaking and it did absolutely nothing due to pallet density.
The survivor sprint again doesn't matter most of the time because there are too many pallets/vaults.
BT base kit gives you something you will use over and over again every game.
Imagine if we took away BT base kit and instead gave survivor: 20% faster totem cleansing, 20% faster chest opening, and 10% faster gate opening when not in the killer's radius (but no bonus inside the killer's radius). And we gave survivor 10% faster healing when there are no other bonuses active to healing. That's a nice mix of bonuses right? Wrong. It's time you don't need saved. That's exactly what killers got.
The one exception here is the save the best stacks as that is actually useful because now you can have "10 stack" of save when playing Nemesis or Demo.
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What the fruit are you talking about "Sith Logic"? I made 5 points/counterpoints and you only decided to address one of them. That to me means you either cannot defend your position or you know you are wrong on the remaining points. If that were not the case you would have made an attempt to "correct" me. I can understand instances of not knowing how to explain how someone is wrong, but that is typically accompanied by a statement to the effect of "You are wrong, but I can't quite explain how." or "You're not wrong Walter, you're just an ...".
Sun/Wind - Strange, because to me the sun is a blazing inferno of torture. To escape the additional heat I would take whatever steps necessary to avoid such torment. I would avoid the stick/punishment of the sun in your proverb. Also why would the man want to lose a tool used to prevent the extremes in climate? If it rained (which would be common in a storm with heavy winds) and he had no jacket, he would be in an even worse scenario. That "bet" is one of many sayings that are wildly inaccurate when the slightest bit of logic is applied. When they can pass basic scrutiny they are fine, such as The Boy Who Cried Wolf, but your example is an absurdism. Sorry but (wrong lesson) / (stupid) sayings are a Pet Peeve of mine.
Killers are being forced to tunnel to have any chance of a fair game against strong survs - I have consistently been gaining net MMR over my Killer matches (2k with 1 hatch or better), and I have no need to hard tunnel or camp survivors. I do occasionally return at the 45-60s mark of a hook to punish gen greed, but they had 45s to reach the hook and rescue before that happens, and they often do so. Killers actively choosing to tunnel and camp are failing to learn macro gameplay, Killer power niche interactions, and reading Survivors in mindgames. They are self-sabotaging their long-term potential growth for short-term gains, a malady affecting all too much of the modern world in general. By invoking such a crutch, they begin to rely on it for victories, and throw hissy-fits when they lose.
The best reward for varied hooks Pop/BBQ and killers got no basekit perks compared to basekit BT - BBQ yes, but Pop rewarded hooks, regardless of who they were on. So in that case Pop didn't reward varied hooks. Survs got 10s endurance, which was the old T2 BT, but they lost 2 stacking forms of anti-tunnel to lay on top. Survs now only have 1 consistent anti-tunnel effect at a time. Killers also got ~3 basekit STBFL stacks (when combined with the Surv speed reduction), and T1 Brutal Strength. The stick of anti-tunnel BT into DS into DH is no more. Now the stick is only BT or OTR or DH due to the foolish notion that anti-tunnel endurance causes deep wounds. It wasn't the carrot of BBQ that primarily varied hooks, it was the stick of Survivor anti-tunnel effects.
Edit: Weird forum false swear fixed (similar to endgame chat)
Post edited by mizark3 on1 -
Yes. Sure. It does nothing. And 49 into 61 is devs lying to us. Obviously bt basekit makes it 12% more likely to loose...
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If we take away all the 10% changes and give back the pre nerf gen regression perks then killer would be stronger than it is right now vs SWFs and slightly weaker vs solo players. You can keep the ruin nerf because that was a noob stomper.
That would be better for the game.
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Oh I would take that any time of the day...
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