the last update changed nothing at high mmr and here is why
So after feeling like killer was way too easy for some weeks, the game settled and my games are pretty much survivor sided like before the patch (i have 3500h and i play mostly against survs with over 1500h), and here is why:
- Prove Thyself is pretty much standard now, i see it in every game. Hyperfocus/ Stake Out combination is getting more and more common. Gens are getting even more focused now.
- good survs play with good survs, not saying it's a 4man swf every game but they have each other in friendlist very often because solo is hell right now. They only want to play with reliable, good survs.
- (good) survs learned how to use new dead hard and if they can get it to work consistently (win the mindgames on pallets and windows) it's even better than old DH
- good items (BNP, insta heal, styptic, ranger medkit) are even more common now.
- the only reliable tactic against good surv teams (tunneling someone out early) has been nerfed hard thanks to basekit BT, OTR and the likes. Which was good for solo players and low mmr players but it hurt the high mmr killers
- the ones who can loop and have game sense are now solely at high mmr, the survs that were boosted by perks (old DH etc...) are lost in mid/low MMR
i'm not saying the experience of mid/low MMR survs are untrue. I play solo a lot and i have a lot of frustrating games. But it was clear that good survs will find a way to keep the old balance alive. Killer right now feels not much different than before. Not saying it's absolute hell, i still have more fun than playing solo surv, but it's also not like "dude killer has been buffed if you don't 4k EVERY game you're trash"
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nothing much changes in a meta set up.
Those that can adapt and make a new meta play as they always did and nothing much changes, those who relied on the meta to be viable drop down to where they belong, until someone else cooks up a new meta for them that's as easy to use and then they creep back.
Its why highly competitive games can be kinda stale.
DBD shines in the mid ranks as it always did, its just harder to know where you're at than it was before.
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I am going to say something and I want you to take it to heart.
You are not going to win every match. You are not entitled to any kills at all. Survivors being able to beat you, especially if they are playing well as you've described is intended.
Read that to yourself 10 times.
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Nice post OP. I've been saying this for a while and anyone that plays killer regularly against non-potatos will attest to this. It's weird seeing all these posts about how insanely overpowered killer is after the patch because it only makes sense in like the baby ranks. They added 10 seconds to gens and they're flying faster than ever
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that's absolutely not what i was trying to say but okay...
the general vibe in the forum and in dbd was "killer is too easy and it's impossible to escape now" and that is maybe true for some regions but in high MMR the game doesn't feel that easy and survivors just adapted. That's all i wanted to say.
I also forgot to mention one point: there are no s-tier killer perks anymore. Like there are some that are "good" but it's not like before where you had Corrupt/Pop/Ruin/Noed/Pain Res and all of those worked on a lot of killers and you always had good value.
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MMR by definition obscures balance. Let's say that you are a mediocre killer, just for arguments' sake. The update is released which objectively makes killers stronger. This is backed up by data, killers are on average killing more survivors in more matches. When the change went live, the groups of survivors that you would have been paired up with before are now no longer a match for you. This would lead your MMR to increase despite the fact that you remain a mediocre killer (for argument's sake of course). Now from your perspective, after the change, somehow games have gotten harder. From your perspective I can see how you would feel that the truth is that killers have actually gotten weaker.
I'll share with you my perspective. From my perspective, I'm winning more games then ever as killer. I've stopped running slow-down perks altogether and I'm absolutely bored with killer.
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They refuse to put any boost into the game for solo that SWF does not also benefit from.
Because SWF also gets every boost Solo gets, each time something changes, SWF gets WAY more use from it.
Because SWF gets way bigger boosts every time, the kill rates at high MMR go way down, while the solo rates barely change.
Due to this, the gap between SWF and Solo gets WIDER instead of smaller every time survivors get any kind of buff.
You cannot make the gap between Solo and SWF smaller with buffs that affect all players. You just make it harder for killers to get kills at higher tiers, which leads to killer buffs, which knocks Solo down even harder.
It cannot be said often enough: Solo Buffs need to be for Solo Only. They're objectively playing the game on a much harder mode than SWF.
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Yeah, you're absolutely right on the perks. Killers lost their 9 best perks, while survivors lost 4 (5 if you count fixing the blastmine bug, despite its after-fix buff).
And the two most-used, best survivor perks actually got buffed.
But the forum is filled with "reverse X nerf to X survivor perk NOW!!!" posts. Killers lost everything that was amazing. Meanwhile, there's a surfeit of options on the survivor side, because low-MMRs need all the help they can get, but that gets magnified a hundred times at high MMR where all those amazing perks get spammed and abused to absurdity.
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the buffs was for lower mmr, thats why. Devs even said this was to help new killers
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are you playing blight mostly? because thats another thing, the high-tier killers are now stronger than ever but the weaker M1 based ones don't feel that much stronger once you reached an higher mmr level
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You people are never satisfied with anything...
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How so? OP just explained their situation and asked for recognition and maybe a stop of this ridiculous posts of the sort of "killer role is so brain dead now that you can 4k every game" or "you suck at killer if you 3k".
OP didn't ask for any nerfs. But I feel the exact stuff OP describes myself: the games feel more fun then pre-patch and more 'fair', but survivors had adapted to the new situation day 2 and nowadays it feels nearly exactly the same.
This is not some whining "uwu please nerf survivors ", thank you very much, we 'higherish skill killers' can win and lose with dignity, thank you very much, but its again becoming very sweaty and stressful with DH raising to the most used perk at higher-ish MMR again, because it's so universally useful.
Here is a thing: I am seeing DH every game, sometimes again three times a match, sometimes just a single one, but every single match I have to take it into account in chases and get baited out a lot by very clever uses. DH is now not a fire and forgot perk and takes a lot of skill, but the higher-ish MMR survivors GOT this skill and they make extremely good use of it.
During the last week of last seasons I smurfed one of my killers in order to break through the last couple Iri ranks, and after just a couple of losses the usage rate of DH dropped staggeringly, it basically disappeared completely. So I feel that DH, and the well utilisation of that perk, is the single most significant marker that you're playing killer in higher-ish MMR.
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tbh high mmr become so stale, you either kill everything or u get gen rushed in first chase, how the hell does a game make high mmr so bad, high mmr usually is, well actually what is it, i guess good players but that would count if my friend who hasn't played the game in 2 years came back and went straight to high mmr, lost 6 games in a row and uninstalled
its a mess just bring back grades
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As far as Prove Thyself goes I run Discordance as a staple now because its so popular. Nothing counters survivors trying to pair up to use Prove Thyself like chasing them off the gens every time they try.
I’m betting Hyperfocus plus Stake Out is on the dev’s watch list right now. It doesn’t look like it’s in the top 20 perks yet overall but it’s definitely seen a spike the last few weeks and has gotten a lot of buzz as maybe being overpowered.
Don’t forget slugging for pressure as well as an additional tactic. The base borrowed time really has no effect on slugging and you can focus you carry and hook time on one or two survivors and slug the others if it looks like carrying them is less time efficient than slugging and switching to the higher priority target.
But yeah, obviously extremely good survivors can still win games, ultimately the side that makes the fewest mistakes will typically win the match and if nobody is making any mistakes at all a really coordinated set of survivors has an edge. Which is fine, nothing wrong with that at all honestly. 🤷♂️
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You shouldn't balance the game based on statistics because they are flawed and won't tell you how the matches generally went... I can do an example: yesterday I faced a premade that did 2 gens in a single (short) chase, at some point I went back to the hook since the hooked survivor was almost on his 2nd phase and no one went for the save... Just for this reason they were so salty that they let themselves die on the hook, without even trying to gave me a hard time (and the endchat obviously filled with wishes about the death of my family and various insults obviously... They said enjoy your 10 minutes queue... Lmao, like If I must wait all that time to found matches as killer). Did the match was easy? Yes, but not surely because killers were over buffed, but because they didn't even tried to win for a petty reason
Post edited by Tostapane on1 -
Dead by Daylight is not balanced around the top players. It is balanced around players of low to average skill. With high mmr comes sweaty matches. The only way to improve the experience at high mmr without top-down balancing would be to solve the core issues this game has. One of which is map size.
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The buffs to killers were basically placebo effect
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Still, the kill rate is at 61% over all ranks. I agree that the patch changed nothing much at high mmr, but it put solo and mid/low mmr into deep trouble. If you have any idea how to adjust for high mmr without hurting solo and low mmr, it would be nice to hear your ideas.
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I play blight, pin head and wesker. But I want this said, overall killer balance is based off the best killers because that's what people are playing.
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Easy, alter pallet distribution values and generator times based on being high MMR SWFs. Every time that's suggested though people screech YOU CAN'T PUNISH PEOPLE FOR PLAYING WITH THEIR FRIENDS BLARGHARGHARH!!!! But we can punish the killer who is screwed from the jump unless they're a great Nurse/Blight
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If there are mechanics that inflate statistics, those mechanics should be changed. Once the mechanics are changed then if you're right and those are the reasons for the inflated killer wins, then those changes should increase survival rates. However, if those changes do not bring the game in balance which in my opinion is a 50 percent survival rate, then more changes need to occur.
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This is what we've been trying to change. Survivors being efficient on gens shouldn't automatically be a loss for killer. Why call it killer at this point when 3 and 4 people escape so often?
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Why can't solos and mid MMR just deal with it? We need them to deal with it, because they know it's not the killers that are broken, but the bad teammates they get from matchmaking. You must balance for the top, because however the game is played up there trickles down. Since people only win through tunneling and gen rushing at the top, that has trickled down. If killers could win with lots of chases and no gens defence, that would be way more interesting and would trickle down. There's nothing wrong with the base game at low MMR and in solo; it's the players.
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Absolutely.
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That's seriously all it takes to win at a high % on survivor, just split up and pound gens. There are so many pallets and maps are so safe you can just insta chuck everything and hold W and you will win very very often. Survivor really takes very little know how or mechanical skill to win frequently if all you care about is escaping, which apparently many people do since everyone is up in arms about the 39% number
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It's not a "high MMR" problem than a problem in general. When DH was reworked we finally had some games where killers would end chases without waiting for an hour and a half to see if the survivor might have it. It was fun while it lasted. Now pretty much everyone runs DH again and I'm not surprised. When used how intended DH is now even stronger than before with the same boring, tedious counterplay. Though at least DH for distance is gone. Base BT became exactly what I feared it would be. A free 5th perk for every survivor. OTR proved to not really work as an anti-tunnel perk but more as a perk that heavily incentivises tunneling. Think about it. A survivor gets unhooked and healed and can now bodyblock the killer twice with little to no counterplay other than getting it out of the way immediately. Prove Thyself became more popular and effectively stronger because there are now even more perks to stack it on, which leads to gens getting done in a matter of seconds. Hyperfocus and Stakeout allow one survivor now to work as fast two survivors previously. The problem with most survivor tools is not their existence but how they work combined with each other. And in this case it's absolutely insane.
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Daniel, anytime I see a post of yours you make me roll my eyes. Every post that you post is one where you make it perfectly clear that you are entirely biased in your opinion.
Let's take a look at what I'm talking about.
"Why can't solos and mid MMR just deal with it? We need them to deal with it, because they know it's not the killers that are broken, but the bad teammates they get from matchmaking."
Hmm... Yes, I think this is a great idea. Just leave Solos to rot, why does it matter if the game is heavily biased against them.
"You do realize those numbers are skewed by bad survivors? No way good survivors only escape 39% of the time."
That's an interesting take, but what about good killers. There's no way that good killers are only killing 61% of the time.
"What about it isn't true? It's the same thing with streaks. You can win all you want, but as soon as you face decent survivors, what can you do? You just lose. Survivors aren't required to be amazing to beat an amazing killer; they just have to be efficient on gens. It's not limited to 4-mans either. Solos have shown that…"
Or what about this absolute gem. Talking about how it doesn't matter how often you win as killer, because as soon as you lose that's proof of how the game is survivor sided. You're not at all biased, well maybe just a little.
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You are not going to win every match. You are not entitled to any escapes at all. Killers being able to beat you, especially if they are playing as well as you've described is intended.
See how dumb that sounds when you tell it especially to a solo survivor? Did the solo survivor die because the killer played better and they were simply bad, or could it also be due to being matched with terrible teammates? It's not just about winning or losing, it's about having a fair chance to win the game.
If this game's losses could be boiled down to skill issue, the game would be in a much more enjoyable, fair state. But the truth is, there are ALWAYS major factors that no matter how much skill you have you can never bypass. Can you tell me in full honesty that a sadako has the same chance as winning as a blight in high mmr, and if not, is it fair and the sadako player should accept it? Same goes for the solo survivor who does not play with a group. You get the point?
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This is no surprise at all. Based on how BHVR takes all forms of MMR into consideration, the best survivors will almost always be stronger than the best killers.
*edit*- Since 2016, BTW.
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I don't think that sounds dumb at all. Survivor or killer both have to accept that they are going to lose some games. But I definitely think that for Solo Queue they're much less in control of an outcome of a game. At least with killer you don't have to worry about your team mates.
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the only reliable tactic against good surv teams (tunneling someone out early) has been nerfed hard
Is this really true though? Sure, we have base-kit BT, but DS was nerfed out of meta in exchange. If the Killer wants 1 guy dead, there's not much the Survivors can do about it. Can't even use the new Dead Hard if you're hit right off hook.
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You can psychoanalyze me all you want. I'm not gonna change tunes just because others wish it.
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I really dont get this, if a survivor is good it means that he deserves to win more often than losing.
If the whole community idea of balancing is that good survivors must lose because of reasons then what's the point? It wouldn't be balancing it would be skill's communism
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Solos cant deal with it because of the way MMR works.
For example, you get a balanced match, where the killer really equals the skill of the 4 survivors (combined). Then within the first minute one survivor dc´s.
Tell me how the rest should deal with it? Even if they, as a team, manage to get 5 gens done, only the one that maybe escape would rise in mmr, eventually maybe getting better teammates. But i am glad to hear your opinion how they should deal with it.
Your last statement is simply wrong. Do you agree that at the top mmr range, nothing much has changed with the patch? Then we can simply roll back the patch, because it didnt change high mmr, and there was nothing wrong before with the base game at low mmr and solo, it was just the killer players.
The thing is you cannot have a competitive game in a game based around lack of information where you have solo and swf queue pushed together in one mode. Balancing around swf just kills solo queue, thats why, at least in my region, the survivor bonus at 100% is almost permanent (but i have to say i saw it coming down to 50%).
I for one, played a solo match today, had again 2 total useless teammates (one running behind the killer, doing nothing until he could finally use the flashlight, to then not get a flashlight save) and just played killer after that. Killer got so easy, that i did an old challenge (that i had misread i think), where i did nothing but setup until the 5 gens where done, opened the gate and still got a 4k (only to notice that i didnt have get the 4hooks during endgame collapse in one match).
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The thing is DBD there's being good at then there's just being good on gens. Survivors can get away with just being good on gens, even if they go down in chase really quick. So if the survivors aren't required to really be good and they're beating a killer who's playing good, we're wondering how that's fair to the killer.
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This. Seriously all it takes to win is stay split up and just focus gens. 95% of killers cannot deal with that. Maps are so safe and have so many pallets you can insta chuck every pallet and hold W and as long as your team is split up banging gens, you will win easily
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I don't think they made it anything other than better for mid and low level survivors. They get free Haste and Endurance off the hook, even though they don't realize how powerful that is. For upper level, they gave killer a placebo effect, and limited high level survivors' ability to get 4 people out every time, just by a little bit, by stopping endgame DS and Off The Record. Otherwise the game is just as survivor sided as before, with solo missing out on the OPness only because of bad matchmaking giving them bad teammates.
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I think there is weird misconception that survivors need to be amazing at looping, but you really do not need to be that good at looping. you just survive the chase for long enough time. Holding m1 on generator efficiently as a collective team is big part of survivor's skill just as much as being good at the chase. here's some simple math. each gen takes 90 seconds to do. multiply 90 seconds by 5 gens for total of 450 seconds. Divide 450 seconds by 3 survivors while 1 person is in chase. you get 150 seconds. survivor only need loop the killer for 2 minutes and 30 seconds collectively. its not really that long.
to illustrate how little time 2 minutes and 30 seconds is. Just look otz 1vs1 cowshed video.
Take Zubat alone loops trapper for 3 minutes and 41 seconds.
I'd say the game is reasonable well-balanced at base-foundation level, however a lot of the killer have pretty weak powers that do very little in terms of helping them win the game. as a result, killer skill-expression is pretty low for most of weaker killers. that is why very little changed for high-level because none of killer powers got changed. Only the base stats got changed slightly but nothing too significant that changes the outcome in term of looping the killer for long time. Soloq finds it overwhelming because soloq is heavily disorganized from lack of information they have, so even doing simple healing tasks and m1 generators can prove to be struggle in term of coordination.
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The problem is not the level of the players, high level players train a lot, so it's fair that they are rewarded with experience, both for the surv and killers side, the problem in my opinion is that there are a lot of high level people who use mechanics that aren't in the game, mainly communication in a game that wasn't made to play like this
One thing that I question a lot in the games I play solo is how honest it is, there are games where the killer can be wearing a crosshair, image filter, the other survs playing in communication with friends, and I alone can end up being abandoned by the team, sometimes they help me, but still many games end up unbalanced because of that
A killer player may have control of the match when facing random players, but now when they are playing in a team, communicating and with the right builds, the match is much more out of control.
What could we do? put the native mechanics in the game, like communication and crosshair and balance the game based on that? or ban the use of these features, which is what nobody wants? if anyone thinks that none of these features should be added to the game in the future, I wash my hands, it makes no sense to complain about this matter so
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