SWF or premades should be nerfed for balance
a killer plays by himself, hes gotta rely on the information he gets and the perks he brings, just like a regular survivor player, there is no communication, SWFs are often in voice and can coordinate, so even if the killer is undetectable, but one survivor can actually see it and pass that information for other survivors using voice, this is not fair to the killer, as the survivor isnt using in-game means for that advantage, this basically coordinates the SWF, 2 on different gens, telling each other how much % on each gen, luring the killer to desired areas, that they otherwise would not be able to if not in voice..
this is not fair to the killers and not fair to the regular survivor players, this gives a clear advantage to SWF.
create an option for killers to avoid and don't play with SWFs if they don't want to, and those who wants to experience that can check this option.
or give the killer some other benefit for facing a pre-made.
before you start crying about " i like to play with my friends ", well killers wanna enjoy the game too and want a fair game, not a loopsided one.
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I think that people who really think that the strength of SWF is communication dont understand the game at all, but are asking for Nerfs...
SWF will never be nerfed. There will never be an option to opt out of SWF-Games. Stop blaming your losses on SWFs.
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if they could bring solo q up to par with it, it paves the way to better balance and buff killers overall, instead of the issues we have at the moment.
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so for a random group facing ghost face, ghost faces main power is to go undetectable, he hooks a survivor and is stalking around a wall or something, then if they are in voice they just tell each other exactly where he is, totally negating his power, the game gives you the tool to expose ghost face by looking at him, the game doesnt have voice built it not text chat, so you are not meant to know ghostfaces location, a clear and obvious huge advantage for SWFs, and this goes even further, they can wait until last moment doing gens because they know exactly wher he is, and then just trade hooks.. obviously a game exploit, but im sure you are one of those SWF players enjoying it right
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The difference in terms of escape rates for swf and solos is negligible in the vast majority of cases, the devs have said.
The only difference that makes me think solos should be buffed on par with swf is that solos are constrained to some perks without which the game can be unpleasant, which makes the game less fun for them. They just can't get as creative with builds because they need the information, which is what handicaps them.
The rest is mostly skill. A swf will not be inherently better just because they can communicate when they're not talking about movies or how their day went. The idea that swfs are constantly calling out to each other where they are, where they're going, where killer is, what pallets were broken, etc., is in most cases a myth.
Sure, going against a complete swf (which is, and I can't stress this enough, very rare) can be a bit disorienting because you're not used to your opponents being a little bit coordinated. But it's not unfair either. In most cases you will barely feel the difference.
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what you said is so extremely false, just what a championship video and just check how they communicate, its insane, they say where they are, how many % on each gen, they coordinate when to pop gens, when to pop the last gen, they have one dedicated person with adrenaline to tank on specific times, and then you tell me communication is not an advantage, is like a joke, they even go with specific perks, specific roles, the disadvantage for the killer is enourmous, at this point the killer is just someone filling a spot so the SWFs can abuse and have fun, when you go to regular matches , with random people not in comms, the fight is very balanced, pre-made groups needs to be nerfed or killer buffed for this specific occasions
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We aren’t talking about the average uncoordinated SWF.
We’re talking about the good coordinated SWFs that are getting massive game advantages from their voice comms. This is the problem.
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In championships, yes.
But who plays this game ? Who makes the majority of the playerbase on DbD ?
Casual players. Who, you know. Don't know the maps extremely well. Don't think to call out every single information. Aren't good enough at the game to have insane payoffs on their strats. Friends who play this to relax after work. Or who are introducing a new player to the game. In most cases, they're duos, maybe trios. Rarely more.
You're taking the example of extremely high-skill, long-time playing survivor mains who are literally good enough to play in championships.
The idea that most survivors killers are facing are of this caliber is ludicrous. The idea that most swfs killers are facing are like this is a pure fantasy. SWFs are the boogeymen of average killers. The average SWF is not that much harder to face than solos.
I think this obsession some people have over the potential of SWFs is really unhealthy for the game, since now any time a killer has a bad loss, their mind jumps to "they were probably a SWF, so it was unfair from the start!" even when the team was just... good solos. Or if killer made mistakes.
And it perpetuates the idea that solos are jokes, which they're not.
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I think the opposite, I think solo players should have a slight buff and swf players stay where they are.
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No, you are the one who can't properly understand my text, my post is directed at the good winrate premades, not casual players, not even duos, a duo is not a problem for me, but if you invite 3 other players, and is play with 4, no matter how experient you are, it is an advantage, and this is the point, you don't need to be championship good to benefit from this, people who pre-made (3 players or 4 players) should play with a different segment, anything duo and below should go to the random matches, same for killers, low winrate killers should match with low winrate survivors, this is called balance
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I can understand that, but realistically they make such a ridiculously small demographic of the playerbase, yet "SWFs" (usually as a whole) are always the easy to blame straw man a lot of people brandish when something goes wrong for them.
If someone is playing on the very high mmr, then sure, I'd understand if they have complaints about coordinated teams (which statistically, still do not make most of their matches).
But most times when I hear complaints about "SWFs" it's from people who are new to the game or learning killer. How often do you figure they actually go against comp SWF teams ?
I don't think there is a problem with the vast majority of SWFs, and definitely not enough to warrant nerfing survivors as a whole or targeting every person who plays with their friends.
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You're right, I did not see where in your post you made the clarification between SWF and experienced SWF.
I still don't think assuming every 3-man and 4-man is very good is the best idea. I play survivor with 2 other friends and we're still mostly dying because even if it's possible to coordinate, we still don't because either we don't think to keep others informed, or we don't know the maps enough to go beyond "Where's the killer?" "Oh, he's, uh.. next to a tree." or "Near main building" "Sure, but like, what side?" "I don't know how to describe it". We're 3, by your logic we should have an unfair advantage, yet we don't outskill the killer.
At the end of the day, mmr does its thing, and will leave bad 3-men to be bad in low mmr and good 3-men to be good in higher mmr. Either they will, as you say, have such an advantage that they win easily, and then are facing better killers. Or they won't be that good after all and will be matched against killers that are well-suited to their skill level.
Assuming mmr works.
Which is why I think the true problem is mmr, or if we want to dig deeper, at the moment, the fact that survivor is not appealing enough as a role to have enough players to maintain a ratio in which the matchmaking system won't match bad killers with good survivors.
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SWFs need to have their MMR calculated higher than it currently is, to balance the advantages for being in a SWF. This might require SWFs to have a higher MMR soft cap than killers or solo q.
Extra calculated MMR points can be based on the number of people in the SWF, and by the MMR level of the SWF. High MMR SWFs can be given more extra calculated MMR points than lower MMR SWFs, since they are more likely to get large benefits from being in a SWF.
This way, the game can balance the high MMR SWFs, without overnerfing the bad uncoordinated SWFs.
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I think you're onto a good solution. That way it would not impede on the gameplay of survivors as a whole and it would not make the SWF's mmr artificially high, as it would still balance itself through escapes and deaths.
Another solution but that could be hard to implement is calculating an mmr specific to the group, where the game would make up a collective mmr it would calculate for your SWF, that would be updated with deaths and escapes. When you're playing solo, you'd have your own mmr, but when you join your friend's lobby, game recognizes them as your SWF buddies and keeps in memory that you have maybe a higher escape rate with them, so it switches to your collective mmr (that is theoretically higher).
That way, having for example a good escape streak with your buddies who keep you informed would not make your next 10 solo games miserable as your mmr is adjusting down again.
That's just an improvised idea though, yours is way more straightforward. :)
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"obviously a game exploit, but im sure you are one of those SWF players enjoying it right"
Yes, I play SWF with a friend of mine who I know for over 20 years. Am I allowed to do so?
And no, SWF is no exploit.
As I said, stop blaming your losses on SWFs. I know that some popular Streamers are good rolemodels for that, but this does not mean that every mediocre Killer player has to do it as well.
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Perfect fix: buff solo-Q to the level of SWF then buff kkller to compensate.
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Can you tell survivors to stop blaming their losses on solo q? I know that some popular Streamers are good rolemodels for that, but this does not mean that every mediocre Survivor player has to do it as well.
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I also vote for something to happen to SWFs. 4 man SWF bully squads quite literally break the game, and it shouldn't be allowed to exist. As far as I'm concerned, 4 man SWF is sanctioned cheating.
I would be okay with allowing duos, so the worst you'd get is 2 duos.
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Right it's not the SWF that's the exploit, it's the third party communication you are using to bypass the games systems that are the exploit.
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It is widely known that Solo Survivor is the weakest role. And no, I almost never complain about Solo-Survivor, because I never play SoloQ. As I said, I play with a friend (and obviously I do this to exploit, not because I know him for so long and just enjoy playing a game with a friend). Because this way, I only have to care for two randoms and not 3.
When I play Solo, I play Killer, if I have the time to endure the long queues.
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As I said, communication is not the main strength of SWF. The main strength is to avoid Potatoes. If you have 4 good Survivors, they will be around the same level when playing without comms compared to with comms.
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And what could the devs even do about comms, assuming they wished to?
Unenforceable.
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So if killers don’t beat a SWF it’s a skill issue, but if solo q doesn’t beat a killer it’s a balance issue?
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Most SWFs are beatable. But it is just super-easy to blame a loss on SWF, because sadly players in DBD are unable to accept that they might not played that good.
OP probably never had the thought "Hm, maybe I did not play as well as I thought".
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Most Killers are beatable. But it is just super-easy to blame a loss on Solo Q, because sadly players in DBD are unable to accept that they might not played that good.
Survivors probably never had the thought "Hm, maybe I did not play as well as I thought".
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Swf does help for sure but it doesn't magically make you a good survivor you know,, that being said solo is indeed a nightmare of rng,, nerfing swf will do nothing but punish people for playing with friends,, only applicable thing is extra bp for killers
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Second time you try this?
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What they should actually do is add comms to survivor lobbies so every group has the same benefit, then balance around that.
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-"The difference in terms of escape rates for swf and solos is negligible in the vast majority of cases"
The last time the devs gave us SWF stats they realized that SWF gave a 15% escape increase advantage over solo players. That is an alarming percentage when you realize Freddy was nerfed for having a 4% "too high" kill rate.
SWF should be limited to : No character, item, perk or offering repeats. Small two man swfs would be virtually unaffected. Meanwhile 3-4 man SWF teams would be slightly limited but who cares because you still get to play with your friends (which is the most important part).
Add the ability to see everyone's perks when in a SWF (just like DBD mobile has). Before you ready up in a SWF any non repeated perks are shown in blue and any repeated perks are shown in red.
Lock SWF character/perk/item/offering selection when readying as a lobby.
Anyone who says this is too much and is oppressive just wants to keep SWF as "easy" mode.
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Yup
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I will trade you giving comms to soloq for giving Killer constant aura reading to all Survivors at all times.
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A more realistic measure would be to either let a killer have their choice of +20/-20 meter terror radius vs a SWF.
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Just a clarification, the devs have not said there is a 15% escape rate difference.
Peanits has said that the maximum difference they have noticed, at equal skill level, was 15%. It is on the highest possible mmr, where extremely good swf are better organised than solos. It concerns extremely few players.
The rest of the time, in the very very vast majority of survivors, the difference between solo and swf is within a few percents.
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I have been begging for years now...
“A while back there was a bug that caused each survivors level to be shown above their heads for all survivors to see while grouped together before the match starts, what I suggest is much like that unintended bug, every survivors perks, item, add ons, and offering should be visible to all other survivors when waiting for the match to begin. This way solo players can coordinate with each other at least somewhat when going into a match.”
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did you read his post? he is complaining that he is playing undetectable killer but he is unable to stealth because of communication of swf. so his power is dysfunctional.
I don't think swf needs any changes though, just solo could use slight buff to be as strong as swf so its easier to balance the game... you know.. not have 15% escape difference...though looking at some swf... it does not look like 15% difference given the escape streaks...
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You do have a point, it really isn't the fairest thing, but can't do much so really nerf it.
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SWF should not be exclusively nerfed. That would kill the game.
The better option is to buff solo queue to be as close as possible in strength to SWF and then nerf survivor and buff killer accordingly.
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You mean like supaalf with nurse? Or many other killers? :) For skilled players streaks are not that hard. Last time I heared there is already larger killer main streamer that is sad how weak survivors have become - making the game boring.
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escape streak, not kill-streak. escape streak is survivor consecutively escape the killer. the thread is talking about SWF and survivor.
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The difference between playing against 4 solo survivors and a 4 man swf is incredibly obvious when you watch any big name streamer. I see the same thing in my games. Show me that quote please.
There should be at most nothing higher than a 3% escape rate. Limiting swf to no character/item/perk/offering repeats would make for a better game experience for everyone.
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Here you go.
You're saying that the difference between facing a SWF and facing solos is obvious with big name streamers. Yes. Because they're at that high end of the spectrum the devs are talking about.
And sure, when you go against a 4-man at any level it can be surprising when you're used to solos. But it's far from being impossible to win. And it's also extremely rare, duos and trios being the majority of SWFs.
Nerfing SWF, without distinction for casual SWF or top players is a very bad idea, because precisely, at equal skill level and unless you're on the highest mmr, they're not that much better off than solos.
Solo is miserable precisely because they have less choices of perks if they want to stand a chance since they have to bring aura perks or perks that help them not depend on others. Let's not constrain everyone.
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"You're saying that the difference between facing a SWF and facing solos is obvious with big name streamers. Yes. Because they're at that high end of the spectrum the devs are talking about."
You assume I'm not playing against people who loop regularly with pixel perfect precision. You assume I don't regularly play survivors whose hours range from 2000-10,000.
-"Solo is miserable precisely because they have less choices of perks if they want to stand a chance since they have to bring aura perks or perks that help them not depend on others."
Limiting SWF groups so that they physically cannot become bully squads in no way affects solo players.
"Here you go."
Peanits has also been quoted as saying every killer has their own independent MMR. That is both false and misleading as we know that if you hit the 1600 MMR cap then all your killers are set to a minimum rating of1200 MMR.
The problem with statistics as that quote block indicates is that they can easily lead the untrained eye to misleading conclusions.
When the game sorted players by rank I was able to get very bad players to red rank 1 by giving them all the information they needed to make the right decisions when playing in a SWF. On their own they were essentially green or low purple rank with no ability to hit red ranks consistently.
When I played with a regular SWF group or red rank players we were able to get three players to escape in something like 80% of our matches or higher. We didn't even use many items and at the time I was a terrible looper but an amazing stealther (not a do nothing hide in a corner stealther but lose the killer mid chase multiple times per game so I dont get hooked type of stealth).
Ignoring my own experiences I will point you into the direction of the Marth Experiments. Without looking at the data I believe they had at least one data set where 80/100 killers they went against either lost a pip or did not get a pip. It should be noted that at the time Marth was not a very good survivor either (as he was a much better killer). If I remember correctly they had at least one set of games where they had fewer than 20 deaths for 100 games.
There is no need to allow people playing with voice coms to have such an insane potential advantage over solo players.
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Dev literally said there is vast difference between SWF and non SWF though...
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"You assume..."
I'm not assuming your mmr or your hours in any way. I'm talking about those streamers, not you personally.
"Limiting SWF groups so that they physically cannot become bully squads in no way affects solo players."
Might be a silly opinion, but I think you should not balance a game around the potential of a minority of people to be bully squads. It's like telling "From now on when playing Bubba you can't bring perks and addons because most Bubbas camp anyway". It's just silly.
For the Peanits stuff, I'm not going to accuse the devs of lying, so any doubts on the validity of their words is not an argument I really want to participate in.
"There is no need to allow people playing with voice coms to have such an insane potential advantage over solo players."
In most cases the average SWF is not that good. They're not better at chases, they don't have a better game sense, they don't have a better map knowledge than their solo counterparts. Sure, they have means of communication (SOMETIMES, because people SWF without comms often when they don't speak a common language well enough), but to be efficient that requires experience : landmarks to orientate themselves, constant updates on everyone, an overall strategy, the ability to actually coordinate rather than just relaying useless info or not being able to apply their plan because someone F's up. All that is learnt through experience.
So when I hear that SWF should be nerfed because even at low mmr they have the potential to be overpowered, I hear "SWF is overpowered at low mmr, because if they were high mmr they'd be so much better than low mmr solo/killer".
It's potential precisely because it's not actual.
Anyway. I don't think I'll change your opinion and I don't think you'll change mine.
Let's just agree to disagree and go our own way ?
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How many times does this need to be said? There are hundreds of topics on this exact matter, almost all of which ask for the same things. Nerf SWF, compensate killers, show killers who's in a SWF, let killers choose to avoid swfs, remove swf, make swf only able to play custom games, etc. etc.
The dreaded SWF boogeyman that everyone cries about are coordinated comp teams that constantly scrim and have a callouts system that relays precise information at all times.
Average survivors playing with their average friends, who make up the majority of swf games, are not using precise callouts. They aren't keeping track of the killer's whereabouts and where the killer is going.
Hens is an excellent example of what your average swf doesn't do. Hens uses a clock callout system, so you get things like "Killer's mid-map going 8, 9, 8.", "I'm at 10, 11", "I'm running towards 4" etc. The one thing you notice is that they are constantly relaying information but more specifically only relevant information.
The best you're getting out of your average swf is specific landmarks like shack, main building or in the case of Saloon, Windmill. They'll relay things like "Shack pallet's gone", and other things like "Killer is Ghostface".
Now, one might be on a generator and say "I'm on a generator left of shack" but the person in chase has no idea which left they might mean. This information isn't precise enough so the person being chased might bring the killer through the area the generator is being worked on.
TL;DR: Not every killer is Otzdarva on a 50-win streak, and not every SWF is Hens on a 50-win streak. It's basically apples to oranges.
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It’s called The SWF double standard…..
Solo q needs to be buffed to be closer to SWF, because it’s a big difference.
SWF should not be nerfed to be closer to Solo q, because it’s not a big difference.
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Double standards are the bread and butter of people who do not want game balance. Also - Bravo! You really got them good.
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"I'm not going to accuse the devs of lying"
I never accused any dev or moderator of lying. Not being able to read data correctly is very easy in the case of statistics. This happens all the time when you gather the wrong statistics. I talked to the dev stat person in ~2017 or 2018 and realized they were gathering the wrong statistics a long time ago. I asked fewer than four questions and almost all the replies were : we don't track that stat. I asked one complicated question if they ever considered cross referencing one specific stat with another and the person was literally horrified saying that would be a month of work. I' was required to do more than I asked for in a less than four hour exam in college. Needless to say I did not get a very good impression of how the staff were handling statistics. Things might have changed since that time but I doubt they have a "math person" covering things.
Not knowing the correct answer and giving one you think is true means you are misinformed - not necessarily that you are a liar.
-"you should not balance a game around the potential of a minority of people to be bully squads"
This cuts both ways. Why did we lose the LF masks? Because a small minority were choosing to engage in abusive behavior. Game design should prevent all abusive behavior.
From a marketing perspective making people not be able to duplicate characters in a SWF has the potential for people to buy more characters. From a fair play perspective it's a rule they use in tournaments so that you can't hide how many times which Claudette has been on the hook.
Not being able to bring 4 toolboxes is a good idea from a fair play sense. Why? Many killers will just immediately dodge that lobby anyway. Most tournaments do not allow items to be repeated as it makes each item more interesting and each item gives that player a specific role advantage.
Not being able to repeat perks (with BT being an exception for one duplication) again makes each character have a clearly defined role. There is no way you can honestly tell me that if you played DBD about one- two years ago there was no difference between a SWF where the perk loadouts of four survivors on voice coms were : BT, DS, DH, Unbreakable and one where the SWF just brought "whatever". The difference is night and day and everyone knows why. The same perk build outside of a SWF sucks. Do you know why? Because you have zero information to utilize your perks to their best extent.
-"In most cases the average SWF is not that good. They're not better at chases, they don't have a better game sense,"
This is not true at all. If you are in a SWF then you can have at your disposal the knowledge of the most experienced player in that SWF. I can recognize almost all the dangerous killer addons and warn my team about them and how to outplay them.
When you are in a SWF you can say : the killer went to the two people on a generator or the person alone. That's an insane advantage. This gives those parties 10-15 seconds to hide before the killer gets there.
When you are in a SWF you can say : the devour hope totem is located exactly here (while you are being chased).
When you are in a SWF you can say: the killer has bamboozle.
When you are in a SWF you can say: I used shack pallet.
When you are in a SWF you can say: the killer chased me off generator at X,Y,Z it is 90% completed - go finish it now.
-"when I hear that SWF should be nerfed because even at low mmr"
The changes I am suggesting to SWF will have almost zero effect at low MMR so we can just delete this thought entirely. The changes are meant to address survivors who have a MMR over 1600 which is a larger number of players than people think.
The frequency and number of people in a SWF goes down as mmr goes down. As a function of volume the people who are disruptive with SWF are the players around 1600 MMR. What makes my suggestions to change SWF so good are that they will impact high MMR players negatively while having almost no effect on middle/low tier survivors.
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It's not a double standard. Nerfing SWF is punishing people for playing with their friends. Solo Queue needs to be brought up to the level of SWF as they're the ones who need help.
Stop using comp teams and tournaments as the example of what an average swf is. You are not playing against Oracle or Hens every time it's a swf. The average swf is simply not that skilled.
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-"It's not a double standard. Nerfing SWF is punishing people for playing with their friends."
He nailed you pretty good actually. Nerfing SWF isn't punishing you for playing with friends. It's limiting how much better you are than solo queue.
-"Solo Queue needs to be brought up to the level of SWF as they're the ones who need help."
So give solo queue 4 information perks that are picked ahead of time and activate if they end up in a SWF game. Information perks are things like : bond, empathy, kindred, rookie spirit, alert - but NOT perks like Dead Hard or Self Care.
Likewise give killers 4 perks when they queue up against SWF. The killer gets any four perks that are chosen ahead of time for each loadout and only activate in case of SWF. You forget the killer is solo queue too and the second part of buff solo queue is the plan to buff killers.
Either way you want to put it the plan is :
- Buff solo queue
- Buff killer
- By proxy : swf gets nerfed because it gets zero buffs.
Honestly the idea of buffing solo queue to be on the same page as SWF is insane. DBD was a stealth game built around uncertainty. Should you rescue? Should you hide? Should you go for the save? Chasing was in an abysmal state in 2016 when you look at pallets and vaults. But what people had not worked out was : what to do when. People look at the tiles and asked how did killers win during this time? It was because survivors did not have the game sense to know when to do which action (and few people played in SWF groups).
Imagine for a moment that all walls in the game (and things like trees/corn) looked like glass for the killer and for the survivor they were opaque. That level of buff would put the killer on pretty equal footing with SWF. That's insane if you stop and think about what kind of buffs the killer is eventually in theory going to get.
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He didn't "nail" anything. All he did was create a false narrative that solo queue is actually fine, and swf needs to be brought down to the level of solo queue.
Neither of you like swf, you've made that much clear, but don't think people are going to be on board with the idea of punishing them for playing with their friends, and it is punishing them for playing with their friends if you nerf swf.
The majority of swf are average, at best. They're not calling out their location, the killer's location, how to counter the killer's perks, where not to run to, where a gen they've been pushed off is.
They're calling out basic stuff ahead of time that you'd find out anyway like who the killer is, what perks they're running or possibly running, whether or not they're on a gen, if shack pallet's gone and if they're going for the rescue or not.
Your entire argument hinges on the existence of organised comp squads, who are in the extreme minority. You know who else is in the extreme minority? High MMR streamers. They aren't who the game is balanced around.
DBD is no longer a stealth game. The game as evolved. Times have changed. Solo Queue needs to brought up to the level of SWF. That means things like Basekit Kindred, and HUD Icons that tell them who's doing what. It does not mean putting them on par with the likes of Hens or Oracle.
How good a swf is comes down to experience, and how well they communicate. So when I say solo queue needs to be brought up to the level of swf, I'm saying they need the same ability to make informed decisions like swf can. The rest is up to how well play.
Giving out extra perks like candy because of how much information can be relayed at the highest level is absurd. Solo queue doesn't need to be spoonfed wins, and neither does the killer.
The changes I propose are that solo queue gets a lite version of base kindred that only shows them the killer's aura within 6m, alongside HUD Icons that show who's on a generator, traveling, cleansing/blessing, unhooking, and healing. That distance is on par with Reassurance. Maps can also be reworked to be smaller and have less strong, safe loops.
These changes don't affect swf. They don't get nerfed, but they also don't get anything out of it since they can already communicate what they're currently doing and whether or not the killer's camping.
The one area killers need buffs in right now is generators. Kicking generators should be more rewarding. So instead of the current 2.5% kicking a generator removes, which is rather pitiful, it can be increased to 7.5%. That's triple its current value. That, to me at least, is more than a fair exchange.
If all of this is still not good enough, because tournament this, comp that, then you can agree to disagree. Not that any of this will ever come to fruition with the direction this game is going.
That being said, I wouldn't mind trading a nerf to toolboxes, the removal of BNP, a rework to Overzealous, Hyperfocus and Prove Thyself if it gets you to agree with my proposed changes.
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