Tunneling
What if there were less bloodpoints to be earned for consecutive hooking of a certain survivor? Or perhaps more bloodpoints earned for switching up a killer's focus?
Comments
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Bp wont change anything. I don't know why a lot of people come up with the idea "well less bp".
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Because people are optimistic.
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What do you think would be a good incentive? I always default to BP because I'm trying to get all my survivors to a set prestige level lol
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Something that GREATLY rewards playing round robin with the hooks (like grim embrace...but worth while) or by giving a target to immediately head after. That said, when alls said and done, players will do as they will.
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There's no good incentive to not tunnel because of dbd's basic formula. People want to win so BP doesn't change their minds.
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Killers who tunnel have various reasons for doing so, but by and large incentives will not solve the problem. It is a core problem that exists because, done correctly, tunneling is the most efficient way to win. The only way to solve tunneling is by making it the least efficient way to win.
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Big no.
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Sadly a permanent 25% gen/game progress decrease is more lucrative than BP for killer.
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I was just a little concerned.
Is the direction of punishing tunneling called an incentive?
To me it sounds like a disincentive.
Isn't the direction of rewarding for not tunneling called an incentive?
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No... people are using the Endurance effect to block the killer, and when you do that... you will be my next target, you earned it and it would be unfair to punish the killers for that.
We do need less bloodpoints for the survivors that are near the hook when people are getting hooked, and refuse to leave before the killer does.
I often encounter that 2 people are close to the hook, in opposite directions not even trying to hide, but if i go closer to one, the other moves closer to the hook, so i move back.
The only looser in this kind of standoff is the one that is hooked, and survivors doing this should be punished, instead they blame the killer for camping.
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The problem is that a 4v1 is very hard to manage and a 3v1 is very easy to manage. It's a core game issue. And the new mori system incentivises tunneling even more.
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What if survivors suffered an inefficiency debuff for a short time after unhooking that slows gen speed by a small but not negligible amount? That would encourage keeping as many survivors in the recently unhooked state as possible rather than just 1 and further incentivize hooking rather than slugging.
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You mean like... the BBQ bonus that was recently removed?
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I had the same opinion. But the 100% bloodpoint bonus proved me wrong. So it actually might help with the issue.
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I believe the 25% bonus for each survivor hooked should be basekit. Maybe another version of it, make is 10% bonus for each hook when a survivor is not hooked twice in a row. That makes it possible to gain a total of 120% BP bonus if you play "perfect".
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You already get more points for killing 4 people than you do for killing 1 person and having everyone else on death hook. Try again. Also they removed the BP bonus from BBQ so now it's tunnel tunnel tunnel.
You would need to do something like add to killer base kit : block the generator with the most progress until the hooked survivor is removed from the hook (if at least 3 survivors are alive). Furthermore affected Generators auto regress while blocked by this mechanic as if the killer had kicked them (but do not trigger overcharge skill checks, eruption or perks like dragon's grip).
Tunneling is a way for the killer to reduce his objective time so that it aligns more closely with the time for survivors to finish their objective. In other words : when the gen rush is strong you counter that by camping a survivor around a 3 gen and tunneling them out of the game.
Tunneling gens out of the game needs to be stopped so that killers don't feel the need to remove a survivor with the first three hooks.
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Yes, a reward for playing fair and not tunneling would work. Sure, there would be exceptions, like before. Players that don´t give a f.
But the majority of the players would attempt to play in a way that gives more points.
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100%!
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There is no such thing as tunneling gens.
Generators and Survivors are not equivalent in any way, shape or form. Survivors simply doing their objective is not genrushing, or to use your words "tunneling generators".
Killers don't deserve to be spoon-fed kills for playing badly, just as survivors don't deserve to be spoon-fed escapes for playing badly. If you play badly, expect to lose.
I'll say it as many times as it needs to be said, play however you want but don't expect the opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies to ensure your victory.
Everyone who plays this game is, to a degree, responsible for ensuring that the game is fun for everyone involved.
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To be fair while a survivor is doing a gen they are technically camping and tunneling their own objective (the gen). And when that happens no matter how fast the progression is on that said objective you are technically also taking fun away from the killer. That is why the best stance to have on the game for your sanity, well being, etc. is to always know that you have to make your own fun in dbd. If you cannot figure that out you have to move on to another game.
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They aren't technically anything. A generator is either repaired or it's not. If survivors doing their objective at all is unfun for the killer, then I'm afraid that person needs to find another game.
What makes tunneling and camping unfun is the denial of being able to participate in normal gameplay. A survivor being tunneled doesn't get to participate in the altruistic elements, and they don't get to progress the objective. They only get to be chased, and should the killer decide to camp them, then that's just rubbing salt in the wound since now they don't even get to be chased.
At no point is a killer prevented from participating in normal gameplay. A killer can chase, down, and hook survivors, as well as defend their generators. Now, it may not always be feasible to do so but at no point are they actively prevented from participating in normal gameplay with the sole exception being hackers, or more accurately "script kiddies".
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I know that tunneling is a hell of pain for survivors, but if we play nice, gens just get smashed, because of this tunneling and camping is becoming more common, get someone out quickly will make things more easy for killers, but sometimes tunneling can be the defeat for killers, focus in one person that he can't chase quickly.
BP will make no difference for someone that have everything.
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-"Generators and Survivors are not equivalent in any way, shape or form. Survivors simply doing their objective is not genrushing"
I will now convince a logical person that this is in fact the case.
What is the fastest way to win as survivor? You repair five generators with 100% repair progress without any gen ever getting any regression. You do not have "wasted" 20% repair progress on any generators.
What is the fastest way to win as killer? You eliminate one survivor at a time to reduce repair efficiency by 25% with each elimination. You hook each person three times in a row to continually reduce maximum repair efficiency. You can slug to force one person to stop what they are doing to rescue the slug especially if the slug was protecting someone you want to tunnel. It is inefficient to hook each survivor twice before hooking anyone three times. This is the equivalent of getting gens almost repaired and then having them degrade to no progress.
-"play however you want but don't expect the opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies to ensure your victory."
How exciting is it for the killer when every generator gets finished in ~40 seconds because the survivors are using prove thyself and strong toolboxes. I could apply your same words to survivors who finish their objective in about 4 minutes - so fast that they can't possibly pip at red grads because there were almost no chases, and only 1-2 rescues off the hook.
-"What makes tunneling and camping unfun is the denial of being able to participate in normal gameplay."
Watch the streamers with 7-9k hours and you will see them sometimes lose all five generators with 0-2 hooks. Was that fun for them? No. It's a perfect example of survivor tunneling. There is no fun for the killer when the generators are done too quickly at no real risk.
-"At no point is a killer prevented from participating in normal gameplay"
This picture is important in the growth of the mind of a child when they can realize they see one image "first" and their parent might see another at a different angle. You have the same limitations as the child who assumes their parent sees the same image they see when you assume all things must serve the fun of the survivor.
What if I said : at no point is a survivor prevented from participating in gameplay when I tunnel them out. They got to play the game - just not the way they wanted. Quite often I am literally forced as killer to get one player to stage two if I lose two or three generators in the first chase. That is the current pace of the game - you need MORE than one hook state per generator.
Let me remind you that an expected outcome is 9-10 hook stages and 5 gens completed. That works out to an average of two hooks per generator completed. Every time I lose two generators in the first chase I immediately camp the next person to stage two so they are on death hook if they are surrounded by three close by generators. This makes completing one of those generators impossible and makes the best case scenario for rescue into a trade. It is the most powerful move I can make as killer and unfortunately it becomes my only move when people rush gens.
Can you describe what you would call a perfect game of DBD?
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Tunnel and camps are part of the gameplay of the game, you can't take that away from killers.
Accept that it happens.
Be better in loop, 360, mind game
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Killer are incentivized for Killing Survivors not for Hooks... just look at MMR explanation and the Tunneling complaints
Also the HUD makes this even worse... Survivors can see who's been Hooked and how many times/ stages they had... but Killers only get the total number of hooks/ stages
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This is amazing.
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It would reduce it at least bit I mostly tunnel because it's earn me most likely more bp.
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Do that to 70 prestigate level nurse with range add ons.
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I can't say I agree with targeting survivors because of the Endurance effect. It just sounds to me like punishing survivors for a core mechanic in their base kit. Especially since it can be a by-product of another survivor's perks and not something the one you're targeting specifically chose. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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You kinda missed the point of what i said, the survivors goes out of their way to block the killer with the endurance effect instead of running away, and by doing that, they become my next prey when i am playing killer, they could just have ran away and i would have left them alone, its not about the core mechanics, but about how they use them.
I could also argue that tunneling and camping was a core mechanic, why else have the Insidious and Bloodhound the perks in the game ?
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Repairing generators as fast as possible is genrushing. Repairing generators is not genrushing. There is no such thing as survivors tunneling gens.
If you think not tunneling means hooking each survivor twice before killing any, you are extremely misguided. If you hook Survivor A, then Survivor B, then Survivor A again, that's not tunneling, because Survivor B was the buffer.
Tunneling and Camping don't prevent survivors from participating in gameplay. They prevent survivors from participating in normal gameplay. At no point, with the exception of script-kiddies, are killers prevented from participating in normal gameplay.
Unless you're high mmr, which I very much doubt that you are, there is absolutely no need to tunnel and camp. Survivors are not skilled enough to complete their objective in 4 minutes at mid and low MMR. Stop putting these 7000+ hour streamers on a pedestal.
I'll say it again: Play how you want but don't expect your opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies. That goes for both survivors and killers.
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-"Repairing generators as fast as possible is genrushing."
So your problem seems to be semantics. Gen rushing and tunneling survivors out of the game have the same goal to finish your objective quickly. Can you agree that it is not fun when you don't really get much time to play the game? The killer gets a short game when the survivors gen rush. Likewise survivors who get tunneled get a short game too.
-"Tunneling and Camping don't prevent survivors from participating in gameplay. They prevent survivors from participating in normal gameplay."
Gen Rushing does the same thing to the killer.
-"Stop putting these 7000+ hour streamers on a pedestal."
Have a good look at the people Otz plays against : he plays in EU at very late hours (Bronx does the same thing). Overall he goes against mostly solo people with the occasional sweat squad.
Compare those games to what you see when CoconutRTS plays in his region at prime time (and the same for Truetalent). These streamers face overall much more difficult opposition for most of their show compared to Otz and Bronx.
Almost all my games at the level of MMR where I play are 3-4 man SWFs with almost no matches with anyone solo. There is a correlation with this game with SWF in that better players more often are in a SWF. I regularly play against people with 5,000-10,000 hours. If you think people with those hour counts are potato - fine.
"Play how you want but don't expect your opposition to praise you for employing boring strategies"
I am guessing our conversation is at an end because you are repeating yourself. Moreover you have no ability to see that you are advocating for the killer to not play at full efficiency but think there is no problem when the survivors do that.
Tunneling killers and Gen Rushing survivors are a problem when it concerns game balance. You can't fix one and not touch the other. However I get the impression from you that you do not see gen rushing as a problem. The reality is that if I lose two generators in the first chase then I am pretty much forced to camp that unhook to force a death hook or a kill.
For years DBD has had a problem where the survivor objective overall takes two to three minutes less time than the killer objective - unless as killer you tunnel. Patrick decided that kills are better than hooks. So I tunnel. There is no reward for hooking each survivor once as part of the base kit - so I tunnel. The reward is in tunneling a survivor out of the game. This is not to be mean but to finish a discrete part of my objective.
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If I seen no problem with Genrushing, that would be hypocritical. That's why I used neutral terminology that encompasses both sides. :)
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The only way to reduce tunneling is making the alternative attractive, reducing BP gain is not the right solution.
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Demanding that the killer goes for a fresh survivor would be the same as demanding that survivors should start on a fresh gen once the killer kicked one.
It dosnt sound right does it?
Post edited by Unknown2765 on3 -
That's not the same thing. Survivors have two health states and three hook states. Generators are either repaired or they're not repaired.
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Lol what?
So what you are saying is that there are only 0% done or 100% done?
Im not sure if we are playing the same game, but i often come to a gen thats 80% done.
But let me break it further down for you.
it takes 90 sec to do a gen, alone and with no perks, or toolbox
Now add toolboxes and perks to that (have you looked at how fast gens can be done??)
3 gens can be done at the same time, if the killer is busy hunting for the 4th
that makes 180 secs on gens, let say you use 30 secs to find gens (thats a lot).
Now we have 210 secs. for all gens to be done (still if everyone do them solo and with no perks, or toolbox) would be faster with perks and toolboxes. (but hey, lets just add another 60 secs, so you wont come in and say the math is unfair)
in those 270 secs the killer need to :
- find a survivor.
- catch up to them, and do loops.
- hit them once.
- catch up to them again. (because of the on-hit sprint).
- do more loops and pallets.
- hit them, again and pick them up.
- walk to a hook, and hook them.
- find another survivor.
- catch up to them, and do loops and pallets.
- hit them once.
- catch up to them again. (because of the on-hit sprint).
- do more loops.
- hit them, again and pick them up.
- walk to a hook, and hook them.
Start over on those 14 steps, 3 times. (3 hook states) because the killer leaves the hook and they both get rescued and healed up.
(Even more times, if the killer didnt catch the same 2 survivors that were already hook previously.)
All this for a draw (2k).
Post edited by Unknown2765 on1 -
Generators don't have a third state between being repaired and not repaired. They either are or they aren't. Generators and Survivors are not equivalent. If survivors were to work a fresh gen every time the killer kicked a gen, their objective would literally never get done.
If a killer doesn't tunnel, they still have three other survivors to choose from. Applying pressure to only one person isn't pressuring the team until that survivor is dead. While there's nothing wrong with chasing that coveted 4k, it needs to be said that there is nothing wrong with a 2k.
It also needs to be said that more often than not a killer will walk away with a 2k or less because they made a lot of mistakes. If the killer gets a 3k or 4k without tunneling, either the survivors were outmatched or they made more mistakes than the killer.
While the potential for survivors to genrush is there, this isn't happening on a consistent basis outside of high mmr. Whereas tunneling is quite prevalent since it's a core mechanic that doesn't require the killer to bring anything.
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Kaitsja is only going to see it the way that makes the game fun for survivor.
What if I said to you that my view as killer is that survivors have a binary existence? They are either dead or they are not tunneled out yet.
As killer for the most part I have to defend a stationary device that doesn't move or loop. It requires a nearly braindead task to hold a button to finish it. My objective as killer is to chase people who are smart and move around the map in ways that try and waste as much time as possible so the other three survivors can finish all the generators.
I spend 40-120 seconds chasing/downing/hooking someone and then I have 10 seconds to kick the generator. This does nothing if I am not chasing you directly. after the kick. See the problem?
It's very clear you want the game your way without even considering for a moment what it is like to play killer. You even go so far as to say Gen rushing is not tunneling and that Gen rushing is fine, but tunneling survivors out is not. It's a real shame I can't force you to play DBD with my MMR and force you to only be able to play killer for a week. I think you would play something else.
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- Did you even look at the math i presented for you??
- Gens have 1% done, 2% done, 3% done and so on, all the way to 100% thats all the states between not done and done, each state takes 0.9 sec to do if you solo with out any bonus perk or toolbox.
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I elected to ignore your math because a generator is either repaired or not repaired. There is no individual state for each percentage. You are trying to justify tunneling under the premise that, because generators can be repaired, the killer is forced to tunnel.
Are survivors supposed to just goof off and meme so the killer can be spoonfed their 4k?
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You're not really making any point beyond not liking the gameplay loop. At no point did I say genrushing was fine. I used neutral terminology to imply that both tunneling and genrushing are boring, and I said that there is no such thing as tunneling generators.
If your only way of having fun is by ensuring nobody else gets to have fun, then you shouldn't play online games. It's quite clear at this point that you want to justify tunneling under the premise that your hands are tied because survivors don't just put themselves on hook for you.
The game can be fun without either side doing their objectice as efficiently as possible. You're using this false narrative that I only care about making the game fun for survivors, yet I've been nothing but reasonable. I empathise with killers and understand the game is bad at high mmr, but that doesn't mean I'm ever going to be appreciative of the fact that tunneling is boring, and completely unnecessary outside of high mmr.
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Trying to dodge the facts are we?
Im not talking about gen states in the math, so your "I elected to ignore your math because a generator is either repaired or not repaired. There is no individual state for each percentage." argument is kinda useless.
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i have to agree 100% with this
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Not trying to dodge facts. Your math simply isn't relevant. You don't mention generator states in your math, but your math is a follow-up to my statement that a generator is either repaired or it isn't.
Your math is the standard gameplay loop, and I fail to see how that correlates with tunneling being a necessity. You're painting this picture that because the survivors objective is to repair the generators and escape, you have no choice but to tunnel them.
Survivors can do their objective really fast, which is boring, but then, so can killers. The game isn't balanced around how fast you can theoretically get your objective done.
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Assuming that such a situation is not possible, the display will show "5 gen remaining" even when the seven generators are running at 99%.
I think they are trying to say that the number of generators is not really a stepwise process, but rather a flowing curve of transition, but I apologize if I am wrong.
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That you dont get that, thats on you.
i can try to help you understand it, but if you just gonna stand and deny everything i throw at you, its wasted energy.
Its really hard for the killer to get 2x3 hooks (or more) in 270 secs with out tunneling at least 1 person out of the game. Thats the essence of what i was trying to tell you.
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Thats pretty much what i tried to tell, thank you
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Don't you mean optimal? This community is the exact opposite of optimistic 😆
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I'll stand by my lies through think and thin~
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