Spine Chill Changes Hurting Stealth Killers
Spine Chill was changed a while back so that it now activates when the killer is in 36m range. It's easy to imagine how this would hurt stealth killers. (The survivor can just go to a pallet even if they don't know where the killer is coming from).
Even just one spine chill can hurt immensely; the survivor running it can pair up with other players, effectively protecting 2+ survivors with a single perk.
I heard that this change was just a placeholder for the terror radius indicator, but any news on when that's coming? Will it also remove this feature from Spine Chill, as it should?
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Killers got so much with the 6.1 changes. I'm glad survivors got to keep their one anti-stealth killer perk after all! Hope it stays for years to come.
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Ah, no. The light that builds up with the terror radius was for the hard of hearing people. That part was temporary. The perk lighting up when killer is in range was literally the point of the perk, so they didn't nerf it into uselessness. It's whispers for survivor.
It does, however, no longer allow you to know when the killer actually starts to head toward you when you were already in the terror radius. Many of us used the perk so *keep* working on gens with the terror radius around us, only pulling back when it lit up from the killer looking at us. That part was nerfed. It was always meant to be an early warning, just not in the way it worked.
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I like the idea of having the visually beating heart I saw on DbD Mobile when a terror radius is around you as an option instead.
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Spine Chill might've lost the vault and skillcheck aspect but it gained the property of being a 100% perfect info perk. If it's on, the killer is within 36m of you. No ambiguity or 'flicking on/off'
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Yes, Spine Chill does let you know when a stealth killer is within 36m, but it is absolutely not "hurting" stealth killers in general because almost no one runs the perk. Look and see how few people are using it across all of your matches.
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I main ghost face and haven't run into anyone using Spine Chill since it got changed. don't think it's that big of a deal.
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Spine Chill working on stealth killers has never had anything to do with the accessibility aspect of it, but boy did they choose an extremely bad time to introduce that particular interaction which was previously not supposed to happen. It got snuck in with the accessibility walkback and I think most people are content with the accommodation out prioritizing the blatant buff, but it really would be nice to have some more info on the basekit mechanics they are working on to replace the perk's HoH usage (which apparently can just be carried over from mobile if they really needed to) instead of this UB/mori test nobody really wanted.
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They are changing flashlights to help prevent seizures, thats way too much accessibility changes. They’ll be accused of working too hard and people will start getting crazy ideas that they actually care or something.
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To be fair, spine chill worked on stealth killers before any of that snafu, which is part of why its annoying but still essentially the same status quo. Its more that it was almost fixed but then that was walked back. Regardless of their reason, taking care of the hearing impaired is more important, especially with how many sound issues (as well as their importance) are in this game as it is. They could just easily drop it working on killers when they have no TR audible and everyone would be happy and taken care of. Except the people who wanted to use the perk to negate stealth entirely, I guess.
I really hope they make good on their claim to have more built in features to help with hearing impaired players though, its certainly a rough game for them on either side.
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I'd rather have survivors receive some proper nerfs to camping, and maybe even tunneling as well, instead of some counter to stealth killers, to be honest. This just unnecessarily hurts stealth killers, and nothing else really, if I understand the problem right.
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Agreed. It went from having awkward counterplay by looking away as killer to having no counterplay at all and I'm honestly surprised there hasn't been more discussion about this perk. Yeah, it lost the vault speed which made some people stop running it but it's even better against stealth killers than it was before which was the main problem with it.
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There was a load of discussion about it once it got buffed...for WEEKS. However, BHVR disregarded all of the feedback. What sucks is, stealth killers are already at a big disadvantage...especially The Ghost Face. He has to spend a load of extra time setting up his attacks, but it can be all for nothing if they are simply running spinechill. It is LITERALLY impossible to EVER be sneaked up on by a stealth killer with that perk - it's that powerful. Stealth killers already have a hard enough time. Spinechill absolutely should not detect undetectable.
According to BHVR's stats, it's one of the most top-used perks in the game.
What REALLY sucks about it is that one perk alone can completely invalidate an entire class of killers. Stealth is the one thing stealth killers have. One perk alone completely eliminates that. There's no counter to it. At least before, you could look away while approaching, but now there's no counterplay. You just equip that perk, and you're golden against stealth killers. For most gens, it's not difficult to determine rather quickly which direction a killer is coming from. The middle gens, however, tend to be a bit trickier.
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As a 6.5k hour ghostie main who's regarded an authority on the killer by much of the community, including Otz, I assure you that it's not balanced in it's current state. Don't get me wrong, i'm all for playing around survivor tactics but the perk allows no room for that. Even just one spine chill can hurt as the player can protect their teammates as well.
This is a pretty poor argument, it doesn't make it right to have a perk invalidate a class of killers no matter what buffs the killer may have gotten.
That doesn't make it okay, especially since you have no clue what the survivors are running. Perks need to be balanced, not disregarded because a only few of the community uses it. And personally I see plenty of spine chill.
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I prefer this spine chill to the old one when survivors knew exactly when the killer was looking at them. That was a real pain to stealth killers. They knew for sure they were being targeted, as opposed to the current spine chill which is more vague.
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Lightborn completely invalidates flashlights (outside of secondary uses against Wraith, Nurse, Hag, Artist, and Nemesis). Plague negates all healing perks and items. Are you ok with those things?
And as @Dwight_Fairfield said above: all it says is that an undetectable killer is within 36m. It doesn't tell you how close besides that, what direction they're coming from, or anything else. Perfectly fine perk.
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Flashlights are just one way out of multiple to counter these killers/rescue people. Plague negates healing items but also provides their own healing method, the fountains, and doesn't really impede the survivors otherwise. For a stealth killer, spine chill invalidates the stealth, which is the main power of these killers. Survivors may not know exactly where they're coming from, but they can just rush to a nearby pallet and be safe from any direction. It's not remotely the same as the examples you provided.
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Factually inaccurate. It is certainly possible. Survivor doesn't notice it light up. There's no audio notification. If doesn't make your action progress bar change color like before I less you have line of sight anyway.
Second, they still do not know where you are. Spine chill is also just as likely to have you walk right into the stealth killer as away from. If non stealth killers can get surprise grabs, I think you're fine.
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All you need is the smallest amount of secondary info to nullify all of that, though. Comms aside, if you're running a perk like Windows and see a pallet or door aura break, you now know exactly where the killer is and what direction they are coming from and can route accordingly. Empathy? Someone suddenly gets injured and you've got a GPS lock on them. Multiple people running around injured? look for an animation that implies being chased (fast vaults, pallet drops, etc) and you've got your answer. Im sure following this pattern any other aura perks like alert/bond/aftercare/etc should give you an idea.
I absolutely get your argument, but it kinda has a disproportionate affect between high and low MMR, as well as between players who do and don't understand deductive reasoning and game sense. or just comms.
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But all of what you suggest is also possible without spine chill. I would know where you are if a breakable wall caved in on Windows regardless of Spine Chill.
If I use Spine Chill like you suggest, getting off the gen, sneaking away, etc, then that also happens every single time you come near, regardless of if you're coming for me or not. That means it's pulling me off the gen without even having to do anything.
It's a good perk, don't get me wrong, but it's not like if gives a wire tap like aura whenever you come by.
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Spine chill gives killers who purposely shroud their TR... a TR. Thats why it matters when paired with everything I mentioned, you are having the two pieces of info supplement each other to be as efficient as possible. It also uses the other information to address your specific points about not knowing what direction the killer is coming from, since again you can make very reasonable estimations and simply choose to go the direction they can't possibly be able to reach in time.
Not only that, but you can pair the two to get as much distance as fast as possible, even without running. If you're on a map like Midwitch and you see the killer kick a gen downstairs, you have a very good idea of what route they would need to take to reach you upstairs. You can then use the activation of spine chill to see whether they came toward your general direction after the kick, which you then combine with what stairwell/ramp they would have to take to reach you. This lets you gain stupid distance before they get anywhere near you, which you could easily mask to relocate a few rooms over in a more stealthy manner. Or run to the other side of the map and have them take a good 20+ seconds to even be able to start the chase. These applications are all strong and they're not even necessarily bad, but they shouldn't be applicable to killers who rely on not giving that much warning in advance.
Again, its the kind of info that people use all the time when they understand how to make these deductions. You just have to keep ruling out impossibilities until all thats left is the possible.
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I mean, one perk shouldn't counter an entire power
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It only soft counters stealth, as myself and others have described above. Calm Spirit stops screaming from Doctor, Urban Evasion soft counters Hag and Pyramid Head. Why are those ok?
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because they're so niche they only apply to 1-2 killers each. Hiding your TR is something that multiple killers share, while the perk also provides plenty of benefit vs non-stealth killers as well (vs not disturbing crows and moving slightly faster while crouch walking, not exactly gamebreaking secondary effects.) The devs have said in the past that they do want to break up perks specifically countering only certain killers (like when slippery meat was reworked entirely) So it would be nice if stealth killers got a similar consideration.
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Personally, I think old Spine Chill was stronger. Knowing the Killer is looking in my direction is way better than just knowing they're close. Plus, most people like myself have stopped running it post-rework.
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As you said, the perk does not discriminate against stealth killers. It activates versus all killers. In fact, stealth killers only trigger Spine Chill’s 36m effect, so they still have an advantage over non-stealth killers in that regard.
New Spine Chill is much stronger, information-wise. A stealth killer could look away from their targeted area, and completely negate it. Not anymore.
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That's not the point at all. Picture a match against a stealth killer. They're sneakily approaching, you see them coming with spine chill, you run to the nearest pallet. What does the killer do besides chase? All stealth killers are bad chasers.
What if you decide to take it further and keep someone with Prove Thyself (or you run it) near you? You can rush gens together, and when the killer approaches, you both can run to safety. What does the killer do then?
It objectively hard counters their power, far from the examples of Urban evasion and Calm Spirit.
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You don’t “see them coming” by having Spine Chill. If you actually ‘saw’ them, it was because the killer went in your line of sight - Spine Chill or not. It simply says they’re within 36m, if undetectable. They could even be on another floor on multi-floor maps. You don’t know which side of the pallet they will swing from, without the terror radius and red stain. I don’t know anyone who goes to camp a pallet just because their Spine Chill is active.
”All stealth killers are bad chasers” … no. They can: turn off their terror radius and red stain (for Ghost Face, on demand mid-chase); expose survivors (Ghost Face and Myers); Myers has aura-reading add-ons, and vaults faster in tier II - and even faster in tier III; Wraith gets a speed boost coming out of cloak; and Pig can use ambush at certain loops.
Again, I don’t know any survivors who sacrifice everything that they’re doing, only because Spine Chill lights up against a stealth killer.
Sounds like a skill issue, to be honest. 🤷🏼♂️
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The only thing I'm going to chime in on is that it's high usage by Survivors isn't because it's really all that amazing. I think it is because most people are casuals, and this perk is available to everyone base game. And it truly is one of the best perks of the base ones available, and one of the most useful to new and/or soloQ players.
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I'm referring to the perk. You see the killer coming when the perk lights up even if you don't have LoS. Most maps are open, outdoor maps, where Spine Chill can be used effectively.
All those killers do have some light abilities that may help in chase but they're too ineffective and time-consuming to use against good teams. Stealth is the main power which the perk invalidates.
I've played ghostface against comp teams like Oracle and others, and my ghostface guide is on Otzdarva's FAQ. I think it's safe to say I know the killer pretty well. It's not balanced against strong teams. The real skill issue is survivors not paying attention to the free warnings their perk gives them. The argument that "it's not used that often" is weak because one side's lack of skill shouldn't dictate the game's balance.
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I mean, yeah, if a survivor decides to not play the game and go grab something out of the microwave, sure, it won't do much, but any survivor actually playing, you know, seeing the blaringly obvious alarm bell lighting up, it's literally impossible to have the killer sneak up on you. I assumed the former part didn't need to be said. I'm talking about someone actively playing the game.
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Every stealth killer is already mid-low tier, they don’t need something that almost exclusively counters them.
Also it isn’t the only anti-stealth perk as Premonition exists :p
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Survivors should be allowed to have a decent anti-stealth perk, if they want to sacrifice a perk slot for it. Spine Chill is balanced, and no longer provides faster vaulting speeds or more opportunities for skill checks.
Premonition is so bad that we can hardly call it a perk.
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I mean, I personally think they aren't
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Premonition literally covers your complaints tho. It tells you exactly what direction the killer is coming from, your only complaint could be it having a cooldown instead of being a 24/7 anti-stealth detection field. Or actually having to turn the camera occasionally.
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Old Spine Chill was fairer but not for the reason you muster. A savvy stealth killer would notice survivors using SC from the headstart they got and would lead them into a false sense of security by walking at a 45 degree angle. The perk would bring so much depth to both sides, I kinda miss it.
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Yeah, if you happen to look their direction within 36m, outside of a 30-second cooldown.. just make sure you don’t pan that camera too fast!
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Spinechill is the one perk to counter stealth, unlike killers and their thousands of perks to counter survivors main objective, aka slowdown perks
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Wait what? you just have to look in their direction. The cooldown starts if the effect procs. I'm sorry you have to pay attention to get value out of a perk.
Plus it still synergizes with everything I mentioned in regards to spine chill: all that metadata still applies and boosts the info premonition gives considerably. It even gives you a good idea of how/when you're going to get the proc.
Post edited by Ryuhi on2 -
Then that's the player's fault for not using the perk effectively...
You need to think from the perspective of a highly skilled player and how they use their perks.
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The perk disproportionately hurts stealth killers more than the patch helped them. Not to mention keeping a single strong perk like this will just shift the stale meta in that direction.
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Yes, because Survivors don't have a healing class, or a flashlight class, unless you put ALL your eggs in that basket in which case that's more of a personal problem. Even then Survivors can still do generators, unhook, bodyblock, etc where Spine Chill can make it difficult to perform a Stealth Killers basic function.
Compounding this is the fact that Killers have 4 perks, where survivors have 16, it realistically only takes two people running Spine Chill to cover 64 meters of the map and their respective buddies. Whispers, the Killer equivalent of this perk takes a lot more investment of resources compared to what a survivor team gives up for a better version of it. IMO Spine Chill should just plain not work if you're undetectable if the reason for it's change is accessibility in hearing the Terror Radius.
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"Even then Survivors can still do generators, unhook, bodyblock, etc where Spine Chill can make it difficult to perform a Stealth Killers basic function."
So can killers. They can still chase, attack, vault, break pallets, hook, etc. Even if more "difficult". Survivors can base their entire build around an item (flashlights and medkits) that they'll never get to use the entire match. Spine Chill does no such thing to any killer, stealth or not.
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Not only does it render stealth useless, it also enables the user to not have to actively use there eyes and look around for the oncoming threat. Might aswell just signal a horn when you approach a gen.
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That's where you're wrong chief, because Spine Chill in it's current state is a fundamentally brainless perk that can be used to ensure that lower mobility stealth killers can't get close to you to hit you to begin with. Nevermind how much more difficult it makes higher skill stealth killers like Ghostface, the ones it punishes the least are the ones who can move extremely fast like Wraith. Compounding this is the fact that the Killers time is considerably more valuable then any individual survivors, so chasing down that one Spine Chill user is much more of an issue.
As far as Lightborne goes, if you base an entire build around flashlights and you get countered by one borderline useless(even detrimental.) perk then I can't say I have a ton of sympathy. Go do gens, your objectives tend to stay in one place unlike survivors. :P
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