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The Issue with Tunneling and Camping and Survivor hypocrisy...
First and foremost:
I dont think tunneling or Camping are "unfair" nor do I think T-Bagging or Clicking is toxic or anything.
I see PvP Games like Sports. I do Sports (acutally I dont) for fun. But if I play against another Team, I want to win. Losing is no fun to me... And I really think it isnt for most ppl. It even gets worse, if I dont lose to my or my teammates mistakes but if I lose due to Design of the Game. I wont rant about the Balance of the Game in General, but I think most of us can agree, that at a certain point of the Game (imo if you understand looping and timings of abilities/cds/etc.) the balance is heavily in favour of survivors. More so SWFs...
This gets me to the point of so called "unfair" play of Killers. Naming camping and tunneling.
I really dont get the Idea, that your opponent, has to play a way, that makes it significantly easier to win for you. Why is that? And why does this only account for Killers?
Lets get this straight, what is Tunneling and Camping? If you reduce that to its core, it is the Killer rushing his objectives and getting sure, nobody stops it. So why is that considered toxic or unfair? Why is a killer sitting on a hook, getting sure the surv dies unfair, but 3 Survs sitting on a gen, getting sure its being done as fast as possible not unfair?
Why does the killer have to hook every surv twice before hes "allowed" to kill someone, but survs can finish one gen after another? Why shouldnt survs then do every gen to 75% before theyre allowed to finish one?
Thats just a double standart!
I get it, if you are tunneled out of the game, its not fun to die quick. But its also not fun to lose 3 gens in under 2 Minutes. Why is survivor fun always more important than killer fun?
Yes, I do think BHVR should do smth about the issue that Tunneling and Camping are unfun for Survivors. But the point is, they are doing it the wrong way. Right now, tunneling and camping (mostly tunneling, camping in endgame) are the most valuable tactics on most killers. It makes it significantly harder for survs to win, if they have to play 3v1 instead of 4v1. By making Tunneling and camping harder, youre not making it less valuable! Instead all the things bhvr did (BT Basekit, BT Movespeed, most likely UB Basekit, etc) are just giving survivors extra time and ability to cover up their mistakes. If you lose a chase you are supposed to go down, if you get unhooked while the killer is near, its your teammates fault and you (the team) should get punished for it, etc.
Instead of making it harder and harder to tunnel and camp, just make other tactics more valuable... Give killers something like Grim Embrace Basekit... Make Hex Totems replacable after all survs got hooked once, Exclude one Gen permanently from the game, make some normal hooks turn into extra scourge hooks, make thanatophobia basekit after 4 different hooks... Just give killers VALUE for not tunneling and camping...
(English is not my motherlanguage so, if you find any spelling or grammar mistakes, be happy and keep them :D)
Comments
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I don’t mind the poor English. The poor logic on the other hand… Rather than waste my time re-explaining all the points you seem to have missed on these forums by myself and others… I’ll just say this: No.
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Your sport-comparison is bad, but let me take it.
Lets say you play soccer, and you just ignore the ball that is played to you, get up to the goalkeeper and hit him in the face 4 times, until he lies on the ground, then you get the ball and kick it into the goal.
Like tunneling, it would be a highly effective way to score a goal. But the other team and the goalkeeper might come up with the point of view that thats not how the game is supposed to play, and that its rather unfair.
Yes, you could say soccer has rules against this kind of action, but dbd has no rules at all, and if you apply that to soccer, it might be a different game.
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PPL like you are the best. Always having an opinion but never explaining, thinking they are right.
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You miss the whole point of the Argument:
The goal in soccer is, to score more goals than the other team. The goal in dbd is for the survs to escape and for the killer to kill the survs. There are multiple ways to achieve those goals, f.e. if survs dont get hooked, there is no need to unhook, if the killer doesnt play hex totems, theres not need to cleanse them. But if certain circumstances apply, there is the need to cleanse totems or unhook your mates. Same goes for soccer: The goal is to score goals. In some games you have to play more passes to your mates, in some games you have to change formation, in some games you have to adapt. All these things, in dbd or soccer, are not explicit the goal of the game but they contribute to the goal. And they are different in every game.
If we transfer this to killer gameplay, I am not "ignoring the ball" i am simply focusing on my target. Its like Lionel messi dribbling around 4 defenders, scoring a goal while he is not passing to his teammates. Is it fun for the opponent? no! Is it fun for his Mates? I dont think so. Is the Job getting done? Of course!
Telling Killers to not tunnel or not camp when they feel the need to is like telling Paris St. Germain not to play with Messi, Mbappe and Neymar at the same time because it is unfair for every other team. Making it harder to tunnel and camp is like forcing PSG to always Play with 9 Players against 11 or playing without goalkeeper. Will they still be putting up their best players? Of course! Bcs it is simply the best way to win their game!
Rules in DbD exist. I am sure you are aware of the cheater Problem. Punching someone in the face to win is cheating. By definition! If you do something, the other team cannot play against, to win, thats cheating. Tunneling and Camping are outplayable. So they cannot be "unfair" by any means. You can feel mistreated, thats your PoV. But you cannot make rules out of "feelings". According to this, genrushing, bodyblocking, Hit Tanking, etc. should all be considered "unfair" or "toxic".
If you strip down the possibilities of one side of an asymmetrical game that is already heavily in disadvantage over the other side, thats not "creating rules" its unbalancing the game!
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Let me also take a crack at the sports comparison
1: DBD is inherently tricky as a asymmetrical game. In soccer each side has 1 goalie, 10 field players, 3 substitutions, etc. If you made the goals 3 feet (1 meter) wider people would complain it was going to ruin the game, but at least it would be a balanced change. All changes in DBD impact one side or the other more. I think this is where a lot of the bitterness in the community comes from.
2: Just because something is an effective strategy doesn't mean its fun. Basketball used to have a 4 corners strategy where, to simplify, if you were winning the game you basically played keep away and made no effort to score unless it was a guaranteed bucket. It was incredibly boring both as players and fans. To solve this they introduced the shot clock and a rule about how long you could hold the ball.
3: So maybe you are looking at the above and saying the change is on BHVR, not the players. I can see that argument. The problem is how you treat DBD. If I was playing basketball with some friends, or just a casual pick up game with people I never met, yeah, I'd be pretty upset with them if they played keep away instead of trying to score. While I'd like BHVR to make changes, until they do its on the community.
4: While it is certainly possible to target a weak player on another team in sports, it's bad form in casual games. Example: I was playing pickup indoor soccer after having not played in almost 15 years. I was by far the worst (and oldest by over a decade) player in the game. No one on my team knew me, we were just thrown together. If the other team singled me out would it have been a good strategy, sure, but my teammates would be right to be pissed at the other team. We were put together randomly it's not like we were a professional, or even organized, team (comparing SoloQ to SWF).
5: The goal of sports is to win, but winning in DBD is poorly defined. If a killer wants to camp a hook survivor because he is happy with a 1k it's going to become a pretty annoying game. It would be like if a team in soccer went down 1-0 and then switched to total defense even though they were losing because they would rather have a 1-0 loss than a potential blowouts (which does happen in soccer sometimes because of tie breakers for advancement). While it can be situationally understandable, it again makes for a bad game.
Why is a killer sitting on a hook, getting sure the surv dies unfair, but 3 Survs sitting on a gen, getting sure its being done as fast as possible not unfair?The survivors have to make a choice on the gens: focusing on one gets it done the quickest, but spreading out is more efficient to get 5 gens done more quickly (not to mention the danger of something like a Bubba). It's a strategy decision that may be right or wrong depending on the circumstances.
Camping a hook is basically stopping the game.
Instead of making it harder and harder to tunnel and camp, just make other tactics more valuable... Give killers something like Grim Embrace BasekitIf current situation was that survivors had a 60% survival rate, sure, we could talk about addressing the unfun elements of the game by giving the killers more. However, one side is currently in the weaker role, so any changes to core gameplay, if not neutral, should be buffing that side.
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