Mori offerings have increased by 1000%
Not that I'm surprised, but since all the suggest changes to the offerings I have seen them used WAY more...
Glad to see I'm not the only one that thinks the suggested changes are awful. Afterall who wants to gamble their BP for a small 20k when a pudding can give up up to 40k, madness.
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Basekit UB exists because of the new change to mori. But I can’t recall anyone asking for the mori redesign BHVR wants. It doesn’t help survivors, and it just seems to remove agency from killers. Was there some sort of toxicity that lead BHVR to implement this new system?
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IMO BHVR likes the Mori-Animations and they want that the players can see them more often. However, with current Moris this is not the case, because they are not as strong as they used to be (rightfully so).
Personally, I dont care about the animations at all and I dont think that the Finishing-Mori should be a thing.
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Actually making the yellow mori offering which lets you kill the last survivor in the game be base kit was a common request. This new system is just taking that further.
I'm actually looking forward to the new system, it'll speed up the cleanup portion of the game when nobody is standing, the survivors have for all practical purposes lost the match, and all that's left to do is hook the last dying survivors and maybe get a lone straggler if they stand back up. I have yet to see a game from the PTB where the killer hadn't obviously won the match when the Last Standing mori triggered.
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Yeah the new potential changes sound awful. And i have like 50 ebony mori offerings to get through.
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i thought finisher mori was just going to be cypress mori base-kit and offering being retired. I am not looking forward to new patch. dealing with base-kit unbreakable for killer is just super unfun deal with. Playing against efficient swf with dead hard/unbreakable/adrenawin x4 is already one of most annoying setups to go against as killer. that chapter is just going to make bodyblocking swf unbearable to play against with a lot of killers.
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People want to have their fun with moris before BHVR takes it all away. Been seeing more Devour Hope, too.
Also, yeah, the new Mori offerings are horrible. They're worse than puddings in terms of their reward, wholly dependent on how tough the opposition is, and are completely countered by hatch, which you can't control without slugging for the 4k.
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If they are going to go through with this, I think it'd be much better to just take our mori offerings and give a per item BP payout rather than the system they have planned.
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Just to clarify, it looks to me like Unbreakable might need to be toned down but the baseline 45 seconds is probably ok.
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I mean yeah same thing happened when they announced syringes were getting nerfed to be a heal after time.
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i don't like the idea of survivors getting second chances for going down with no perks. the current slugging itself is highly abusable when 4 survivors are alive. there is too many second chances in current slugging so unbreakable goes from bad to worse.
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A good counter is to put the downed survivor on the hook.
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Wouldn't only sluggers and bleeders be opposed to the final mori? I dont know a soul that actually enjoystryingto find slugged survivors who have crawled half way acrossthe map.
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Killers downing last survivor and refusing to hook them for 4 minutes even though they are right next to a hook. Instead killer stands over them waiting for them to bleedout.
Survivors running to dead zones due to hooks permanently breaking and killer cannot bring them to hook so choice is have them bleed out for kill (only kills matter for mmr) or risk survivor wiggling free and escaping or going back to dead zone to waste time.
Killer slugging for 4k, loses a slug that crawled to corner and has to wait for them to bleed out.
Killer faces solo q running a slug build that includes knock out. Killer downs and slugs all 4 survivors and waits 4 minutes for all of them to bleed out.
Basekit mori is a solution to all of these situations.
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Keep in mind that in the current game it takes survivors 30 seconds to get to be one-tap from being revived by someone else and a rescuer about 10-15 seconds off gens to revive them. If you compare that to the new system where it takes 45 seconds for a dying survivor to stand up without help it’s mostly a wash in terms of time lost on gens. (Again, this is without Unbreakable which is what might need to be slowed down.)
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For me the most fun is the end game slugfest vs an altruistic swf. And only twice ever have they been salty about it in the end game(both comp teams XD). Most of the time It's the most fun that can be had as it's all skill no gens no playing safe just all out skill from both sides. IMO this makes killer win faster if the are winning hard but takes away that fun end game for no reason I can think of. But it also gives base unbreakable which is just absurd especially paired with the real perk. Overall bad change.
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And making yellow Mori basekit would be far, far preferable to the proposed system, and wouldn't necessitate an overhaul to the way the dying state works and all the perks associated with it.
Arguing about how effective the basekit Unbreakable is, is a moot point. I don't give a damn whether it's a net buff or nerf to survivors, the mori system is still garbage.
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What I don't like by making Unbreakable base there isn't any negatives about it. Unbreakable now you can only use it once but the new Base can be used as many times as you have bleed out time.
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I don't know why they want to implement this new mori system. I can understand that they want to use the animation more often, which is fine by me but why not make it trigger automatically when last remaining survivor gets downed? Those new mori offerings also don't make a lot of sense to me. They are a huge gamble and basically tell killers to play in the most unfun way possible just to get 20k blood points which is less than a cake, pudding or party streamers. An explanation on why exactly they want this new mechanic implemented would be nice. I don't remember anyone asking for it.
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that would only be true if the game was 1vs1. it is not 1vs1. survivor have 4 to 1 efficient for killer. for every second that the killer takes, the survivor have 4 actions that they could be doing. the killer loses time regardless of how long the recovery action takes. for example, if the survivor goes down in 45 seconds and is slugged. the killer spent 45 seconds to down survivor which 3 people were doing generators during the time. The killer goes after another survivor. 1 survivor is still on generators entire time while other survivor is on generator for 20 seconds. he spends 5-10 seconds walk to the survivor and pick survivor up in <2 seconds.
The killer gets nothing from this interaction because -30 seconds of bleed out is unlikely to kill the survivor and survivor saves 1 hook-state. In new change, the survivor does not need to go to pick up survivor and stays on generators entire time. the killer gets nothing in this interaction. this is why perks that cause slugging always end up being problematic because there is no incremental reward/punishment for being downed towards slugging. Jake's old sabotage perk that permanent destroyed hooks, flip+power struggle, buffed boil over, successful sabotage, hook breaking in the corner of the map and the survivor running into the corner of the map causing the killer to be unable to hook them all cause infinity loops because of lack of punishment for being slugged.
the main strength of slugging for killer occur when killer imbalances the survivors generator efficiency when slugging. for example, you have probably at one point heard of survivor complaining of slugging at 5 generators. This occurs when 2 survivor are downed, 1 person is hooked and another person is slugged at the hook. The remaining two survivors are unable to complete 5 generators when killer is camping hook. this is one area where slugging is strong because 2 minute hook timer is lower then 5 generator completion. A lot of killer that lack game-slowdown will try to force this situation because it gives them re-occurring map pressure.
this other place where slugging gains strength is 3vs1's. If a killer downs 2 survivors, the survivor lose 200% efficiency and only 100% of efficiency remains. the killer can be on par with survivor in term of gen efficiency to kill efficiency. as a result, you can comeback as killer and kill all 3 survivor even if none of survivor have been hooked.
I had this discussion with you. I think it was 3 or 4 months ago where you had position that you can slug for pressure and I had counter-position that slugging for map pressure is ineffective vs efficient teams. My position was that you cannot use slugging only to win like you can with camping and tunneling and that slugging is proxy to stronger camping. you can close out games with slugging but in both situations, slugging relies on survivor to play poorly. with new change, you will have less opportunity to punish poor survivor play. as a result, I dislike the change.
I have always hated that as well. going down as survivor should never be rewarding. the killer should always get something for downing the survivor and survivor should always get punished. your suppose to actively be discouraged from going down as survivor.
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I'm keeping in mind there are still a lot of scenarios where I'm forced to slug, and being able to self pickup at all is a second chance in those scenarios. There is a huge difference between someone that can pick themselves up, and requiring a teammate to travel to the slugged survivor.
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There’s a certain minimum total time lost on gens when someone is slugged regardless of how many survivors are alive. In the current game, it’s 30 seconds from one survivor plus 10-15 seconds travel from the other survivor. In the new system it’s 45 seconds for one survivor. That’s why it’s basically a wash in terms of time lost to the survivors on gens in a 4v1 setting.
And saying that the killer “gets nothing” for slugging someone for 30 seconds is false. That’s 30 seconds less total potential time spent on the gens. It also doesn’t necessarily follow that the killer “loses a hook state” because if the killer comes back to pick them up after 30 seconds they still get the hook. In fact, in the new system they’re more likely to get the hook if they come back in about 30-40 seconds if the survivor doesn’t have Unbreakable because it will now take them 45 seconds to stand up instead of 30.
It’s fairly common for me, for instance, to down someone, see another survivor nearby, and leave that dying person slugged for 20-30 seconds while I force a hit or pallet drop from the other survivor since I know I can do it and still have that dying person not working on gens. Slugging isn’t only for literally trying to bleed survivors out, it’s also a way to make more efficient use of your time while a survivor is currently temporarily out of action.
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It’s not as huge a difference as you think when it takes 50% longer in the new system to pull yourself up than it does to be instantly revivable in the current one.
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The current system still requires someone to travel to the slugged survivor, which means you can camp or proxy camp the slugged survivor.
It also means at least one of the other survivors can't repair generators for the entire time frame it takes to travel to the slugged survivor, then back to a generator.
Also, requiring a survivor to travel to a slugged survivor is huge, because it gives you the option to chase them instead. Some survivors like to excessively hide, or pre leave generators when they hear a terror radius. So making them travel to a slugged survivor (which might be in a dead zone) can save a lot of time.
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the killer spends 30-45 seconds on the chase itself. 45 seconds of pick-up time is 1:1 time investment between the killer and one survivor. As I said, the game is not 1vs1, its 4vs1. that whole unbreakable change is 1vs1 killer mentality change. If the survivor is successfully picked up, the killer invested time to get the down but did not progress his kill objective because you rarely die to bleed out as survivor when 4 survivors are alive. the loss of times on generator was going to occur regardless for what action the killer would take (slug or hook).
it’s also a way to make more efficient use of your time while a survivor is currently temporarily out of action.
not necessarily. distracting the killer to stall their hook is survivor tactic to extend hook timers when survivor thinks the killer will camp the hook. for example, if you distract the killer for 20 seconds and then the killer picks the survivor up to hook them, that survivor effectively has 80 second hook timer. a survivor distracting you is only 25% of the team off generators, the other 50% are still doing generators. it is tactic to leave survivors on hooks for longer so you can m1 generators then attempt to go for a last second save. this is why people that hover over with flashlights and pallet-saves are annoying for killer. even if they're unsuccessful in saving the survivor from being hooked, they waste killer's time while rest of the team m1's generators. the game is 4vs1, not 1vs1.
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Again, it takes 30 seconds currently for a dying survivor to get themselves to one-tap from recovery and about 10-15 seconds for someone else to head over and revive them instantly and then get back on a gen. I'm including that travel time of the other survivor in that number.
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It doesn't take "30-45 seconds" to secure a pallet drop or hit. If it's consistently taking you that long to do it I think you're doing something wrong.
And it doesn't matter that it's 1v1 vs 4v1 in what I'm saying because I'm talking about the total time lost by the survivor team as a whole. In the current system the survivor TEAM is losing 30 seconds plus 10-15 seconds on gens. In the new system, without Unbreakable, they're losing 45 seconds on gen. The systems are a wash between each other in that respect. So no, it's not relevant in what I'm saying that the game is 4v1 versus 1v1, the total time survivors lose on gens is the same regardless.
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if you slug another survivor then chase another survivor. it takes approximately 45 seconds for the killer to down other survivor from healthy to injured. you will not have enough time to go back to first survivor to hook them. the extra 15 seconds does not help you in this situation. it would be better hook then chase the other survivor. the unbreakable change makes survivor self-sufficient. your getting less wasted time from the survivor team as a whole. slugging in 3vs1 will be near impossible in their new system which hurts a lot of killer that have trouble getting hooks.
If your slugging a survivor then chasing another survivor to get a hit or pallet drop which should take around 10-20 seconds. your allowing survivors to sit on generator longer because your delaying your hook. Its unlikely that 15 seconds makes much of a difference between old and new system. there is just more added potential risk if your pick up is delayed for too long compare to old and new.
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The proposed changes are terrible, so people using them more incase BHVR actually go ahead with this ######### makes sense.
The UB change ought to have changed slugging, and now the proposed system for the Mori encourages it. I'm so hoping it doesn't go through.
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Well yeah. I’ve been using them more and so have most of the killers I’ve been playing against.
The reworked offerings are terrible, aren’t worth the payout you can get from them, and the reworked ebony offering is straight up unhealthy for the game. It requires you to slug for the 4k as it is otherwise completely out of your control.
So I might as well use the offerings now while they are still decent and not reworked into something literally nobody asked for.
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I never said anything about downing the other survivor from healthy so I'm not sure why you're saying that.
Also there isn't more "potential risk" in the new system unless the survivor has Unbreakable. In fact you are more likely to get the pickup in the new system if you come back in 30-40 seconds than in the current system.
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A good rule of thumb is that I never care about the number of survivors that AREN'T doing generators. What I always care about is the number of survivors that ARE on generators, and the current system requires a second survivor to not repair generators for a while.
Your math isn't useful either. You should be comparing the current system where a survivor will die if another survivor doesn't pick them up, and a system where a survivor can pick themselves up. You should be considering that if a second survivor travels to a slugged survivor, they can put themselves in danger, and there is a risk the killer will start chasing them before the slugged survivor can be picked up.
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I disagree and think you're just choosing to ignore numbers that don't fit your current view of the new system. And it's not the "number of survivors on the generators" that's important, it's the total person-seconds devoted to generators over time. Keeping one person off gens for 45 seconds reduces the total potential repair progress by 45 seconds as much as keeping one person off for 30 seconds and another off for 15 seconds.
In fact I'm pretty well convinced at this point that if the survivors don't have Unbreakable and are just using the base 45 seconds pick up time it will have very little impact on the game for most matches. The only examples of issues in this regard so far from the PTB involve Unbreakable, I haven't seen games yet where survivors without Unbreakable are escaping more than usual.
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In the current system, slugging keeps one person off gens for infinite minutes if someone doesn't save them.
I don't know why you keep repeating this convenient scenario of a survivor just casually walking up to a slugged survivor, one tapping them, and they both safely walk back to a generator. In reality, I'm going to be proxy camping the slugged survivor, and I'm going to attack another survivor if they get close to the slugged survivor. In the best case scenario, I might even knock this other survivor to the ground before they can pickup the slugged survivor, and now there are two slugged survivors on the ground. Another likely scenario is that the second survivor picks up the slugged survivor, I knock the second survivor to the ground, and then I start chasing the survivor that was just picked off the ground.
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Might as well use them while they still have a unique and cool effect.
They are about to get absolutely butchered after all...
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Why would you bother proxy camping a slugged survivor instead of hooking them? Slugging for pressure makes sense, slugging a lone survivor to just camp them is an inefficient use of time.
And I mention that scenario because it's pretty common. For instance, you knock someone down, another survivor is nearby who's injured and you down them. You hook one of them and a third survivor saves the one you didn't hook. Happens all the time.
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I'm often stuck in a situation where I'm forced to slug survivors, because I'm literally unable to get them to a hook. I've been complaining about this multiple times on the PTB forums, and other people have mentioned this too. I'm honestly not sure why you seem unaware this is a thing.
If I was able to always hook survivors, then I wouldn't be complaining about survivors being able to pick themselves up. I'm complaining about this specifically because I'm often literally unable to hook survivors.
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If you're talking specifically about not being able to hook survivors who have Unbreakable and are part of a sabo squad on the PTB, I've said a bunch of times that Unbreakable might need to be adjusted. I haven't seen any games though where survivors who aren't using Unbreakable cause that sort of problem.
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In the new system, survivors don't need unbreakable to pick themselves up. When I'm forced in a situation where I literally can't hook survivors, the new system punishes me, by letting the survivors pick themselves up. The new system allows survivors to bully the killer, by purposely placing themselves in situations where they literally can't be hooked, and the new system rewards them for this bullying. And people were doing this against me on the PTB, regardless of whether or not they were using Unbreakable.
I'm honestly not sure if you even play this game, or if you just browse data sites, and observe matches to see if they fit your data. Have you personally played killer, and personally played against a bully squad that purposely places themselves in situations where they can't be hooked?
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Right, so now if I disagree with you I "don't personally play killer". 🙄
Whatever, I'm done with this then, eventually we'll see what happens with the system and who's right.
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I'm done with this too. Too many of your posts revolve around things you've observed on data sites, or things you've observed while watching other people play, or things you didn't observe while watching other people play. And not enough of your posts talk about your personal experiences with actually playing the game.
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That's because stats are objective, not anecdotal. I can say "I like doing such and such" or "This or that happened in my game" but it doesn't mean much of anything since it's just my subjective experience. Stats are objective and come from a much wider pool of players or from the game data itself, so if the numbers are indicating something it's stronger evidence of a real effect than what I personally do in my own games. So I'm a lot more interested in analyzing the numbers than debating what "feels" better.
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The problem is that you're not good at analyzing data. The devs put warning labels on the official stats, telling people to be careful about drawing conclusions from the data, and here you are making conclusions from an unofficial data website, that is not a representative sample of the DBD population. According to your data website, Onryo has the highest kill rate. Like LOL is this for real? The other problem is you need to realize that even if data is valid, that doesn't mean all conclusions drawn from the data are valid. You need to learn which conclusions can be safely drawn from data, and which conclusions are overstepping.
You don't even know what data is useful. Having data that combines all the MMR levels together is not useful. If I complain that I'm seeing too much Dead Hard at high MMR, it's absolutely useless to quote unofficial unrepresentative data that mashes all the MMR levels together.
You don't even seem aware of the biggest problem with observing PTB games, is that the MMR doesn't work on PTB, which means the high MMR killers are going to stomp all over the survivors even if the survivors are trying to do all these broken things. And that doesn't mean the broken things are ok. It just means there is such a massive difference between high MMR and low/mid MMR, and the MMR difference is more important than whether or not survivors are using broken strategies.
What you should be realizing is that we aren't given enough data to make a lot of the conclusions we want to make. And we shouldn't grab unofficial data, and call it "good enough", just because it's what we have access to.
ANYWAYS, I'm done talking with you. Have fun in the fog.
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Well yeah they are proposing neutering them.
I've got about 50 or so of them on each killer so I'm gonna get my BP's worth from them before they become useless try to avoid it in the blood web item no 12.
What they are proposing really does seem pretty crap too. You port to a special place for the mori animation taking all the choice, spontaneity and general realism out of it.
Its like they want the game to get blander and blander in an attempt to appease the DC babies.
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What you don't seem to understand is the difference between "not a lot of data" and "no data" or personal anecdotes. Dev stats and aggregate sites aren't 100% conclusive on some things but they are much, MUCH better than personal stories about how individual players "feel" about things.
Also, by the way, you also don't seem to get that stealth killers generally do well against average players but worse at high MMR. That's why Pig historically has the highest kill rate in the dev stats in overall games but supposedly does worse in the higher brackets, survivors at high MMR are less susceptible to Undetectability. So it shouldn't be surprising when Sadako does decently in overall stats. It's just the flip side of the Nurse who does poorly on overall dev stats but better than average in high MMR because she is notoriously unforgiving to casual average players who don't play her regularly.
Anyway, when you have something other than just personal feeling to go on let me know.
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Care to point to the data that states how many times a survivor scrawls to a deadzone in the corner where the killer can't hook them? Or the data that shows how effective bodyblocking is at denying hooks? How about how many times a hook sabotage has actually prevented a hook, rather than being in vain because the killer wouldn't have made it to the hook anyway?
Not everything is captured by data, not everything can be captured by data, because not everything can be measured or quantified. That's why we have feedback, that's why we have anecdotes. If we only needed the data, the devs wouldn't need to know what we think, they could just look up their spreadsheet and draw their own conclusions, like you seem to like doing so much.
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In my opinion they should remove the Mori offerings and refund us the bloodpoints when de Mori rework comes out. They will be the worst BP offerings.
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You said this so perfectly! Thank you!
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Not everything is captured by numbers but a lot of things are. And while numbers don't tell the whole story your view of the game has to be consistent with the data or you'd just be believing in a false narrative.
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