DS is Garbage and Tunnelling is too valid
Serious question: How does the official statement "we wanted to deter tunnelling" exist in a world where you then nerf basically the only anti-tunnel perk to the ground? 3 seconds you can't even get to another loop...as a killer main it's not at all a fear anymore to get DS'd.
5 games in a row ive been tunnelled tonight. I now have a 30 min dc penalty from being so frustrated with this game lately.
You've lost SO MANY survivor players. What is the logic behind destroying the ONLY anti-tunnel perk?
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First: maybe use OTR. The fact alone that you are silent stops most killers from going after you once they realise you have the perk. I also found SB to be very helpful to combat tunneling.
Not going to lie, 3s DS sucks. If you are anything with range or speed, you don't care. And even if you are Trapper, it's not a bad thing.
It's somehow funny that fist DS was 5s because Enduring effected it, then after that got removed, they nerfed to 3s because "it was enough" before realising that survivors don't get away in that time because of stagger when they get free. So they put it again to 5s ony to nerf it back to 3s.
Sometimes I wonder if the Devs read their own patch notes. 🙄
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Did being silent stopped killers going for iw survs pre nerf?
Neither does now if they have otr. If they want you out you are out.
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It helps in cases you don't get hit right away. In combination with SB this often helps. You can lose the killer quite well if you are completely silent. Usage of a medkit is recommended.
It works better for me than using solely DS. Maybe try to use both OTR and DS. And if you are tunneled still too much: slap DH on it. There you go.
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The difference was that EVERYONE was silent because of IW all the time. It was like Dead Hard. There was no option not to go after that person because everyone else would have had the same stuff. OTR and BT both work fantastic as anti-tunnel perks when used as such. But people actually prefer to use OTR by bodyblocking the killer and then wonder why the killer would chase after them instead of anyone else. If you REALLY want to make it pretty much impossible to tunnel you try OTR, Lightweight and Overcome. It works and it's strong enough to help in any game really. Also to your last point: Yeah. That is how the game works. A killer should be able on average to get to a certain amount of hooks with pretty much no conditions other than playing good enough in chases. If a killer decides to do the logical thing and spend them on 1 survivor of course they are gonna die. Do you stop working on a gen and go to another once you hit 33% on it for no reason? No? How dare you tunnel that gen, then?
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OTR is garbage, killers just insta hit you off hook now.
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I see you adopted certain killer main's stupid "tunnel gen" argument. Well the same person also said that patch 6.1 was survivor-sided so you are in very good company...
To the point - no. Most killers I meet would camp and tunnel no matter the situation. Because it's easy to do and because it brings most results. They don't need to chase, they don't need to think. They just stay near the hook and wait for easy pray. Once the person is unhooked, you smack him immediately to get rid of possible OTR. Now you just chase him. And it does not matter if you are bad in chase. If other survivors bodyblock. If they go down just so that you stop tunnel. No. Actually all you need to do is to catch him after several failed attempts and you are just handed your win.
And now you wonder why killer queue is so long. Why so many soloQ survivor DC. Makes no sense. The game is good the way it is. DS nerf was justified. The game can be finally played right. Waiting next to hook is fun for everyone. Why do those pesky survivors even complain all the time now that the game is finally so much fun and so easy?
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Depends. Together with SB this rarely happens.
Without SB, it happens more, true. But it still feels better than DS. And the other effects like 100% noise reduction and no aura reading are also important for me. I just hate how loud Jeff is.
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otr deactivates if u get hit during 10 seconds window wich is extremely easy if the killer is camping or face camping, otr is good, if u manage to last (or if the killer is not face camping and oftently they are)
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I know it deactivates. I use this perk since 6.1.0 and I play almost every day.
And if a killer is camping (whatever your definition of that is) few helps anyway.
Idk.... I for myself love OTR. It works for me with my build. Maybe it's not for you. And if I play killer, I see a lot people use it too.
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Maybe but some tunneling killers run STBFL so they can hit you immediately to take your endurance away, regardless of whether or not you have the perk
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OTR is garbage by design. Why do you think killers hit survivors off hook? Because no one wants get bodyblocked by an invincible survivor. And after you got OTR out of the way why would you not tunnel? OTR would be perfectly fine if survivors lost collision with the killer and other survivors but right now it really works as a tunnel perk instead of an anti-tunnel perk.
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Funny how you try to put words in my mouth. 6.1.0 was heavily killer sided. No argument there. And SoloQ changes were definitely first on my list of priorities but it was obvious that some changes were needed for killers as well. 6.1.0 was not perfect. It did not solve the biggest issues killers have. It instead showed us exactly how killers are meant to play. They are meant to tunnel and camp. Perks to counter it are implemented so these stategies don't guarantee a win but there are no incentives to play different.
OTR is designed in a way that FORCES killers to tunnel. If they don't tunnel they'll have to deal with an invincible survivor tanking 2 hits for their teammate later. That's almost as bad as DS was with survivors running up to the killer and klick, bodyblock jump in lockers etc. I would love OTR if it would make you lose collision so you can't get hit but you also can't bodyblock. I didn't actually adopt that whole tunnel gen argument. It's only logical. It's exactly the same. It's ugly if a killer does it, I know. I hate it and I'd rather lose a match than start tunneling at 5 gens because I know exactly how bad it feels, but why WOULDN'T the killer do it? Do I get any reward, any incentive, anything really out of NOT tunneling? Watching survivors teabag in the exit gate for 2 minutes and throwing the game in the process is not really something I would consider a reward. It's like going to work being nice and helping a colleague and getting a punch in the face as a thank you. Camping is the same. It works and survivors do it too because it is the logical thing to do. Do you always leave an area as soon as the killer comes closer? Survivors want to finish a gen they started working on. Staying there is the best way to guarantee it get's done. Why would a killer ever leave an area where they can protect gens and a hook? It doesn't make sense. Again it's ugly and definitely not fun. But it's understandable.
It simply works. You know what doesn't work? Wasting time on walking across the map while 3 survivors are slamming gens. It's not like you can get consistent downs every 30 seconds either. The killer's objective takes much longer than the survivors's. That didn't change with 6.1.0. How does a killer prevent 3 gens from getting done in the first 60 seconds thanks to toolboxes? I haven't found the key to down multiple survivors simultaneously yet. Have you?
I wish it wasn't like this. But it is. How do you suggest we change that? Even if DS was 15 seconds you would see killers tunnel. It's the only possible way to deal with it. DS and OTR do not discourage tunneling at all because they are used aggressively. Which is also logical. You bring a perk and you want to use it. I get it. But think about the consequences before you pretend killers are all just bad sports and don't want to play normally.
I play SoloQ. I see how unfun this can get. But it's not like every killer tunnels and camps and it's not like killers 4k every match (thank god). I'm a killer main and I pretty much always use BBQ (except on Hag) because it's one of the few things to incentivise and reward actually leaving the hook. But it's a pretty mediocre perk that is locked behind a paywall.
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In high MMR, people use anti tunneling perks to body block and prevent you from getting hooks on other survivors.
I’ve gotten into the habit of just smacking people when they come off hook so they can’t use Off the Record to bully me. Sometimes it leads to that survivor going on a hook 10 seconds after they come off hook. Not my problem, I’m not really given a choice with how people abuse these perks.
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It's not the only one, but it was the most effective. It needs more bite, especially now that it deactivates in the end-game. Five second stun returned, no more skill check to activate, and disables all killer powers for 10 seconds.
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Bhvr needs to hire game logistics people and fundamentally change the game a bit rather than release perks that act as bandaids for meta killer tactics (such as camping and tunneling). If they can fix that, they can start to really go ham on nerfing survivor perks to balance the game out more for both sides.
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it seems u rad nothing of what i said, if the killer is camping OTR did nothing because u get hit in the borrow time window, is not preventing tunneling or doing anything against it because deactivated due borrow time, OTR as it did on PTB should stack with Borrow Time. in that regard it was preventing tunneling, was it strong? it was, was it fair? also was, we need to discourage tunneling, however i know survivors may try to abuse it by taking a free hit for other survivors but that normally wouldnt happen and they can already do it if they manage to escape from the chase in the 80 seconds window and heal, if they 4 had it would be a nightmare i wont lie to you but that will discourage tunneling greatly and killers will be forced to chase other survivors making the game fun for everyone, even buffing DS aswell if neccesary, time has proven u cant give nothing to the other side expecting good sportmanship like when they nerfed DS to the ground not long ago, tunneling wasnt AS STRONG as today because DS imposed FEAR unless u were nurse or potentially bligt, 5 secodns stun and catching again would be 30 seconds potentially wich was the difference between winning and losing, that is why it was so strong, u had to slug... in that aspect killers could get another buff encouraging going for more hooks so they dont feel weak when gens are poping fast.
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I've complained to devs about DS stun being too short, and the DS skill check being TOO hard to hit for a lot of people, and they just didn't care. With the hard-to-hit skill DS skill check, BHVR has always been treating this perk as a lottery (will I win it or not?), rather than a measure against tunneling. And now with a 3 second stun, the perk is pretty much useless. Before I could combine it with Parental Guidance and it would help me lose the killer, but now I can forget that.
On paper, BHVR is trying to counter tunneling, in pracise, they want DS be useless, so killers will be encouraged to play the game more, 'cause for the long time the killers were so discouraged to play.
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And you seem not to realize that people would exploit the hell out of endurance stacking.
You would have no chance as killer.
BTW the post was about TUNNELING, not CAMPING.
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i literally said in the comment that people will abuse it, but is the only way to discourage tunnelling. if we want to fix tunneling we need to do this because good sportmanship cant be expected.
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Fixing one thing by breaking others? Do you realise what you are asking about?
You say good sportsmanship is not to be expected. Then I don't understand you suggesting something that would require good sportmanship on the survivor side to begin with.
You are angry and frustrated, I understand that, but this isn't the solution the problem.
If you know a real solution to the problem, tell me, I would be glad to hear it. If not, this conversation is done from my part.
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But that's not the way to go. Just imagine how it would feel for a killer to do the right thing and don't tunnel just for the unhooked surv to come and use that anti tunnel perk as a weapon.
It would certainly help with tunneling and with the long killer q times cause we would just go back to the before times where we didn't have enough killers.
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No more skill check to activate 🤣. Why not also complete all the gens too?
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So flashlight timing fix should be reverted? Because removing 1 bad thing (bm, health issues) is no good if we also remove good thing (lesser consumption, easier readjust and better 360). Oh right. We can swap more broken things for less broken only if it helps killers. Noted.
As was stated multiple times. All you need to do is keep him on the ground. That's it. He will not do anything for prolonged time just for a single hit.
But to the topic. Maybe make DS 7 or 8s, but disable it also when healed or outside chase for 15s (countdown can start immediatelly after unhook if killer does not camp). Reset and double the timer when downed and get rid of 60s cd it currently has. This should almost guarantee intended usage only.
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Yeah, because removing a skill check from an anti-tunneling perk - with 10 other activation and deactivation conditions - is totally the same as all five generators instantly popping. 🙄 Officer Doofy salutes you!
(Probably doesn’t even understand that I’m asking it for console players who suffer from poor frame rates, and not even for myself as a veteran PC player.)
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Until maps actually become somewhat balanced then don't get your hopes high for tunneling to be slaughtered.
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I think slugging is not a good answer to that problem especially when the planed bt basekit really comes live. The I slug and he gets away or I don't slug and he gets away for misusing a antitunnel perk as a weapon.
And it's not like that would just happen in one of hundred games this would quickly become standard
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I too think that tunneling in 5gen is not very healthy.
That said, I think increasing the stun time of DS based on the number of generators is an interesting idea.
However, it is also clear that the emotional aspect of the problem is not solved.
Let's say such a situation actually occurs and a 7 second stun occurs. Perhaps the 5gen tunneling killer will tunnel again to get that stun back for that 7 second stun.
At that point, I can see "DS is garbage". In fact, it is not garbage, because the DS has gained 7 seconds +α. However, the fact that "I die" will cause you to mistakenly believe that all effective phenomena were in vain.
I have already seen some people say that OTR is garbage. It is the same with this 7 seconds DS idea. It actually buys time. Yet, if you are dead, all the PERK will look like meaningless garbage.
Winning as a survivor team is a killer loss, but as long as the dead survivor complains in 1death 3escape, all perk will be called garbage.
Of course, leaving the game early due to 5gen tunneling is not funny, so we need to discuss what should be done.
But whatever buffs we get... they will complain.
Now, about DS, I think we should also test 4 seconds in the next PTB, because 3 seconds is certainly too short.
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Oh BaBy dOnT YoU wAnT mE CoMInG HOT FoR YoU:?!
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That wasn't Scott's suggestion, that was someone on the subreddit.
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But if the DS is 7s and it will cost the killer the game, then next time killer will think twice.
The problem with tunneling & camping is not that you will have miserable game from time to time. The problem is, that you will have a good game every niw and again. Because the tactics is easy and good. So everyone who cares about win more then about fun will camp&tunnel (& genrush for that matter).
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Just 5 second or reusable within the 60 seconds would be enough (timer pauses while on the ground) while disabling at endgame or when fully healed (reactivates on hook when it is not endgame tho)
Just giving it 5 seconds is the less complicated version tho, but it still is countered by slughing that way
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Make DS go back to what it was before it was guted, DS was fine plus shouldnt deactivate during EGC either. DS was a fine tool against Tunneling against most killers, potentially we can make it work twice, so its an actual anti tunnel perk like OTR.
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he wants endurance stacking because it would give survivors 2 health-states instead of 1 health-state after getting tunneled off hook. currently, if the killer hits you, you only gain 1 health-state from the base-kit BT because off the record does not work when your in deep wound. Dead hard is impossible to use currently as anti-tunnel perk because of their endurance stacking change. OTR does work as anti-tunnel perk but it got nerfed from ptb to live. DS still works though. it does still allow you to escape killer grasp and continue the chase. Its just that you need to be next to a loop to use it. Not really sure what OP post is complaining about.
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