Remove Perks that reward bad play
Namely Decisive Strike and Hex: No One Escapes Death
Both Perks reward their user for a bad play on their own part.
DS for being unable to outjuke and lose a Killer, NOED for being unable to put pressure on the Survivors and preventing Generator repair.
Whereas some might argue that the former is far worse than the latter, both have a similar result: they outright deny the receiving part something: in case of DS a potential kill, in case of NOED a potential escape.
Of course NOED can be destroyed and potentially not come into play at all, but just as much can the DS Skillcheck be missed and make it unusable.
IMO, in game that is supposed to have oneself rely purely on one's personal skill in order to succeed, Perks that give someone a second chance or outright deny or fully alter an outcome of a situation and reward bad play should not exist.
Which is also the reason I outright refuse to ever use DS as I find it a horrendously flawed Perk and the same goes for NOED, I did use it back in the early days of Dead by Daylight, but haven't used and even refuse to use it for well over 1.5 years by now.
I'd be quite happy to lose both of them.
Comments
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@DocOctober said:
Namely Decisive Strike and Hex: No One Escapes DeathBoth Perks reward their user for a bad play on their own part.
DS for being unable to outjuke and lose a Killer, NOED for being unable to put pressure on the Survivors and preventing Generator repair.
Whereas some might argue that the former is far worse than the latter, both have a similar result: they outright deny the receiving part something: in case of DS a potential kill, in case of NOED a potential escape.
Of course NOED can be destroyed and potentially not come into play at all, but just as much can the DS Skillcheck be missed and make it unusable.
IMO, in game that is supposed to have oneself rely purely on one's personal skill in order to succeed, Perks that give someone a second chance or outright deny or fully alter an outcome of a situation and reward bad play should not exist.
Which is also the reason I outright refuse to ever use DS as I find it a horrendously flawed Perk and the same goes for NOED, I did use it back in the early days of Dead by Daylight, but haven't used and even refuse to use it for well over 1.5 years by now.
I'd be quite happy to lose both of them.
Well said. Couldn't agree more.
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I'm going to agree but only partially
Perks that decide that can do turnaround on game are OK if they have counter play:
NOED can activate only after gates are powered.
Remove the totems OR totem after powering gates = perk is out of gameI use NOED on Wraith, since I simply don't have better perks yet and I can say it only faces play 1 out 5 games. Even then it rarely bring me a kill.
DS has no counter play and is used 4 times in a game. It is broken.
Pretty sure you have counterarguments so let's hear it. I'm up for discussion if you show me how exactly it's broken when it does have a counterplay
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As a killer main, I would give ANYTHING even NOED to get rid of DS.
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@Sarief said:
I'm going to agree but only partially
Perks that decide that can do turnaround on game are OK if they have counter play:
NOED can activate only after gates are powered.
Remove the totems OR totem after powering gates = perk is out of gameI use NOED on Wraith, since I simply don't have better perks yet and I can say it only faces play 1 out 5 games. Even then it rarely bring me a kill.
DS has no counter play and is used 4 times in a game. It is broken.
Pretty sure you have counterarguments so let's hear it. I'm up for discussion if you show me how exactly it's broken when it does have a counterplay
I have not said anything about either Perk being broken, so do not try to lay words into my mouth that I didn't say. I'm not going to engage in a discussion with you if that's how it'll play out.
I don't care whether or not either Perk can be countered. Counter play or not, I dislike the very idea behind them: rewarding bad play. In my opinion, such Perks have no place in a game like Dead by Daylight, since, as I stated in my original post, the very premise of Dead by Daylight is for onself to rely on their skill in order to succeed which is not the case with either Perk.
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@DocOctober said:
I have not said anything about either Perk being broken, so do not try to lay words into my mouth that I didn't say. I'm not going to engage in a discussion with you if that's how it'll play out.rewarding bad play.
my bad, "reward bad play" is broken in my vocabulary. But let's go with that
This is actually the other way around in case of NOED. It does not reward bad play, but rather punishes bad play from survivors.
If they decide not take safety measures and instead rush head-first into dangerous zone, they get punished by NOED. They can counter play it, so if they don't - they get punished by it.
It can be argued in case of 4 survivors still alive that it can turnaround game. Perk is still active if 2 already dead and last two do gens before totems are finished.
This then becomes a win-more? nope, it's still punishment for survivors.
It IS indirect, via killer hand.DS has no such argument. Hence why I say it's broken. Note, that it is me who says it.
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I don't think that either Perk is broken, I just think that neither Perk has their place in the game.
Even though one could indeed argue that NOED punishes bad Survivor play, it STILL rewards bad Killer play alongside it and that's what I have my gripe with NOED.
As I said before, I advocate for both DS and NOED to be removed and replaced with a different Perk each that does not reward bad play.
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@DocOctober
How would you punish bad survivor play without rewarding killer?PS: I can't say it's killer bad play, because if 2 survived and powered gates, it's not bad play on killer part, it's pretty much impossible to block survivors from doing it, if they commit to it.
It does reward killer in non-direct way, so let's just skip that debatable topic0 -
That's not the question.
The question is how to punish bad play without also rewarding bad play.
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@DocOctober said:
That's not the question.The question is how to punish bad play without also rewarding bad play.
Well, ok, that's what I asked. Omitting the rhetoric.
I can't see how you can affect one side without affecting the other. In versus game like this it's a question of balance. Since it always affects both sides.
You can't affect one side without the other.Ruin (and any other perks) would be same, it affects survivors hence it's a bonus for killer.
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If I play against DS, I slug or dribble the obsession, or use basement stairs or another drop to slow them down. If there are more DS users who aren't obsessions, I'll pay attention to where hooks are and act accordingly. If I know a certain player has used DS in the past and they aren't the obsession, I'll dribble once after counting to 4 or 5 and get to a hook if possible or a drop, unless there isn't a hook/drop nearby. While DS is broken and can be a pain, I don't have a problem with it. Most DS users are brain dead any way.
NOED is a bummer if you have outplayed a killer all game and they down and camp you at the end, but, it can be countered by just removing totems and knowing the killers that use it most are Freddy, Pig, Wraith, Hag..then maybe Doc, Trapper.
I never use either perk, but I don't care if others do.Bloodlust rewards bad play and should be removed, except for Tier 1 bloodlust on Tier 1 EW Myers and Tier 1 bloodlust on Hag as she's trash.
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@only1biggs
How BL rewards bad play?0 -
@Sarief said:
@DocOctober said:
That's not the question.The question is how to punish bad play without also rewarding bad play.
Well, ok, that's what I asked. Omitting the rhetoric.
I can't see how you can affect one side without affecting the other. In versus game like this it's a question of balance. Since it always affects both sides.
You can't affect one side without the other.Ruin (and any other perks) would be same, it affects survivors hence it's a bonus for killer.
It is indeed possible to punish bad play on side A without also rewarding bad play on side B.
But you keep insisting on situations in which one side gets rewarded, that's not the point of my discussion. I'm starting to wonder if you even understand the subject.
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@only1biggs said:
If I play against DS, I slug or dribble the obsession, or use basement stairs or another drop to slow them down. If there are more DS users who aren't obsessions, I'll pay attention to where hooks are and act accordingly. If I know a certain player has used DS in the past and they aren't the obsession, I'll dribble once after counting to 4 or 5 and get to a hook if possible or a drop, unless there isn't a hook/drop nearby. While DS is broken and can be a pain, I don't have a problem with it. Most DS users are brain dead any way.NOED is a bummer if you have outplayed a killer all game and they down and camp you at the end, but, it can be countered by just removing totems and knowing the killers that use it most are Freddy, Pig, Wraith, Hag..then maybe Doc, Trapper.
I never use either perk, but I don't care if others do.Bloodlust rewards bad play and should be removed, except for Tier 1 bloodlust on Tier 1 EW Myers and Tier 1 bloodlust on Hag as she's trash.
Counters or no counters. Both Perks have a flawed design premise and should be removed from the game.
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I never use DS. You're welcome killers. And it has nothing to do with me missing the skillchecks every time thus having a dead slot shhh!
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@DocOctober said:
It is indeed possible to punish bad play on side A without also rewarding bad play on side B.But you keep insisting on situations in which one side gets rewarded, that's not the point of my discussion. I'm starting to wonder if you even understand the subject.
There is simple reason behind it. It's because we discuss perk, which should give advantage. I see no point in taking perk that does not give advantage.
About noed:
You instead insist that it rewards bad play. Maybe, although in my eyes it punishes bad play of the other side. And has nothing to do with rewarding bad play of killer, since it's not working if killer played bad. It works ONLY if survivors played bad. Killer has little take on whether survs take down totems or not before poping last gen.I follow the discussion but you seem to forget that it's perk we discuss.
as for punishing bad play without rewarding bad play: please give example of what you have in mind. It might remove misunderstanding if I have any.
ps: no, I don't insist on situation where one get's rewarded. I don't even write it. I say that if you take advantage from one side, it gives advantage to the other. Simple logic. Nothing about rewarding or rewarding bad play of killer at that
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Fine, we'll agree to disagree then, because I will stay true to my point: there should be no Perk in this game that rewards bad play in any way, no matter what else it does.
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@DocOctober said:
Counters or no counters. Both Perks have a flawed design premise and should be removed from the game.
Uhh, while I agree that DS needs to be reworked, it can be countered and so it won't be removed. No perk will be removed no matter how much you hate it. Just learn to play around it as I suggested.
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@Sarief said:
@only1biggs
How BL rewards bad play?If you need me to answer that question, you probably need bloodlust.
If you can't catch a survivor quickly enough or don't know how to run tiles correctly, then you shouldn't be rewarded with a speed boost. There are map designs where bloodlust can't be avoided sometimes, but if you get into tier 2 or 3 of bloodlust, you've probably done something wrong.
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@only1biggs said:
@DocOctober said:
Counters or no counters. Both Perks have a flawed design premise and should be removed from the game.
Uhh, while I agree that DS needs to be reworked, it can be countered and so it won't be removed. No perk will be removed no matter how much you hate it. Just learn to play around it as I suggested.
I know they likely won't be actually removed so I see "removed" in the sense as replaced. The Perks should be replaced with new Perks that have a different functionality.
And I couldn't care less about any actual or pseudo-counterplay these Perks have, they shouldn't exist in the first place as they go against the game's premise.
Please stop trying to provide counterplays, that's not what this thread is about at all.
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People complain so much about DS, and killers do that stupid tippy toe/drop to the hook and the survivor doesn't even get wiggle points because of it. I think that needs to be fixed to counter killers from doing that.
On another note. DS is only one get out of grasp free card and it's gone and that's only if your even using the perk. I've seen so many people complain about DS and it doesn't even bother me when playing killer. If they hit it they hit it I can down them again no more than 30 seconds later usually. Most killers just suck at hunting so they complaining about the one perk that can help out the survivor one singular time. Its alot easier to make mistakes as a survivor than it is a killer.0 -
Only ever a low rank Killer would say something like that, unless the Survivors they face are utterly incompetent.det0xxp said:People complain so much about DS, and killers do that stupid tippy toe/drop to the hook and the survivor doesn't even get wiggle points because of it. I think that needs to be fixed to counter killers from doing that.
On another note. DS is only one get out of grasp free card and it's gone and that's only if your even using the perk. I've seen so many people complain about DS and it doesn't even bother me when playing killer. If they hit it they hit it I can down them again no more than 30 seconds later usually. Most killers just suck at hunting so they complaining about the one perk that can help out the survivor one singular time. Its alot easier to make mistakes as a survivor than it is a killer.
This thread is not about how to counter DS or NOED or how to play around/with them.
It's a thread about a removal/replace request of the two Perks as I consider their mechanics flawed in light of the game's premise.
Please refrain from further such posts, this goes to everyone.1 -
@DocOctober said:
@only1biggs said:
@DocOctober said:
Counters or no counters. Both Perks have a flawed design premise and should be removed from the game.
Uhh, while I agree that DS needs to be reworked, it can be countered and so it won't be removed. No perk will be removed no matter how much you hate it. Just learn to play around it as I suggested.
I know they likely won't be actually removed so I see "removed" in the sense as replaced. The Perks should be replaced with new Perks that have a different functionality.
And I couldn't care less about any actual or pseudo-counterplay these Perks have, they shouldn't exist in the first place as they go against the game's premise.
Please stop trying to provide counterplays, that's not what this thread is about at all.
Okay, then here's the answer to your thread...the perks won't be removed or replaced. They might be nerfed. In the mean time, I have suggested counter plays to help you.
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I was a rank 1 survivor getting all kinds of killers from rank 1-10. All killers unless they really don't care, which is about 90% of them complian and do the drop to the hook #########.
The devs seriously need to fix that.0 -
@det0xxp said:
I was a rank 1 survivor getting all kinds of killers from rank 1-10. All killers unless they really don't care, which is about 90% of them complian and do the drop to the hook #########.The devs seriously need to fix that.
That is absolutely not what this thread is about, please create your own if you have an issue with DS-dribbling.
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