I wish self unhooking was a bit more viable.
I don't want it to be unbalanced, but we have so many luck offerings and 2 perks I can think of offhand that improve luck that at the moment are worse than useless.
My issue with it is that if you fail to unhook yourself, you pretty much throw the game. I mean I've run meme builds with my swf using 4 vigos salty lips and slippery meat, up the ante etc. And unhooks happen but are still pretty rare. And if you fail? Straight to second hook.
I don't want to see the percentage chances change, but maybe just don't progress the hook for attempting to unhook, maybe give people 2 attempts at base, and have slippery meat grant maybe 2 extra instead of 3.
As well as introducing an interesting new build to the meta and maybe messing with proxy campers a bit, it'd also help with the suicide on hook problem people have been complaining about. Because as it stands builds and perks using luck are actively detrimental because either they are wasted slots by not using them or you're hurting the team by speeding up the hook process.
Even killers may benefit because, correct me if I'm wrong not entirely sure. you get less points for a survivor progressing hook phases on hook than you do actively hooking them multiple times.
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The chunk of progression removed when trying to self unhook is the necessary downside to the mechanic, otherwise there would be no reason not to try self unhooking yourself every time as soon as the killer leaves, or forcing them to stay nearby just to be sure you don't self unhook yourself - basically a lose lose situation
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Exactly, it has a 4% base chance. I have managed a normal unhook once in 13 days of play time. And that's also why i suggest dropping the number of attempts allowed, maybe even drop the percentage. It should still be a rare thing, just feel luck builds shouldn't have such a huge downside
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I have never unhooked myself without Deliverance. Granted, I don't try often, only when trying to die on hook so my teammate gets hatch, but it has, so far, never happened. My luck goes elsewhere apparently haha !
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Personally, as a killer main, I don't mind removing hook progression on failed attempts. I'd like to something where when hooked, instead of a "Kobe" phase and a struggle phase, you have two functionally identical phases. You hit skill checks that fill a bar, not unlike the wiggle mechanic. When the bar is full, you get an attempt to pull yourself off the hook at the same chance of success we have now. Failure at any point doesn't progress the hook timer or regress your escape progress, you just don't make progress towards an escape.
Have it so if you hit every single check you get something like four to six total escape attempts across the two stages. Lower the percentage chance to escape per attempt. I think total chance to escape between all attempts should be something like 15-20 percent with a max of 30-40 percent with offerings and perks.
Make it more of a hassle to suicide on hook. Give players a little more agency in dealing with various camping situations. Killers lose some pressure maybe with higher numbers of people self unhooking, but the chance to do so is still low enough that someone is likely going to have to break off a gen because you can't risk letting someone advance hook stages betting that they'll self unhook.
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I like it, more extreme mechanical change but a very interesting one, eliminates suicides on hook.
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IMO based on gens being slightly longer to complete now (excluding perks and toolboxes) and the fact forcing yourself to second stage damages your teammates, I would not be opposed to a couple of changes.
Firstly after being hooked I think a slight delay before the progression starts moving would be fine. 5-10 seconds to give a little extra help to survivors trying to balance repairing gens and going for the save- this is especially true for solo queue players who don’t run kindred or just have a serious “gens before friends” problem. This would also discourage camping or at least make it slightly less effective.
Secondly, the three self unhook attempts should not take you to second stage. You should get a very short window of time after your third attempt to remain at first stage. Again, maybe 5-10 seconds. People killing themselves on hook is a game ruining issue and should be thwarted as much as possible. Plus it gives the killer a huge advantage for basically doing a third of their job. This is not good for the game.
However I don’t think the act of self unhooking should be buffed in any way though. It would cause similar gameplay issues that the ability to heal yourself does, albeit on a much smaller scale.
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The ability to unhook yourself is quite powerful since survivors do not have to waste time running across the map to unhook. So a 4% base chance was made for it so it is not unlikely but still very possible.
Every single time I have unhooked myself, my team has won the match since the time saved allowed us to do generators or open the exit gates. Self-reliance in a team-based game is one of the many reasons why items like Medkits are powerful, and perks like Deliverance see competitive play.
One of my main issues with DBD is Luck being underutilized for a mechanic, outside of self-unhooks it is useless, which makes people less likely to bring Luck Offerings, thus making self-unhooks really unlikely in public matches (without SWF, since SWF can coordinate Luck Offerings to a degree).
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That's why I'm saying it should get a buff, because at the moment it isn't just an unlikely oay off if you brong luck offerings. If you trybto utilise them it actively hurts the game. Hell I'd be happy to see the kobe chance go down to 2 or 1% if we could just not slap ourselves on second stage going for an unhook. Having 1 in 100 or 50 survs getting an unhook on 1st phase seems fine to me.
And not sure about your confirmation bias on every self unhook you managed directly causing your team to win. They certainly help but i doubt every one you got was the sole reason the game swung in your favour.
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There does need to be some consequence to attempting to unhook yourself, but I agree that as it's set up, it's basically a self-inflicted wound to try and get off the hook.
Perhaps it could be that you get three free attempts to unhook yourself, and after the third attempt, you go straight to stage 2. This would give you two free attempts without consequence, but using all three would have the same effect it currently does.
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I don't agree that there does. Keep the chances of any single escape attempt low and force the attempts to be spread out so survivors are still going to have to at least try for a rescue unless they get very lucky on the first attempt. There is an uptick in self unhookings, but you still have survivors having to bail off of gens to rescue.
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I mean that's almost the same as I'm suggesting anyway. All your version does is still allow players to suicide on hook. Maybe like deliverance, a self unhook inflicts broken, or maybe haemorrhage/mangled instead.
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Could basically add a silent metric that keeps track of how many people you've unhooked, and uses that number to boost the chances of success for unhooking yourself. Deliverance would basically just 100% the silent metric.
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I disagree that the lost progression is actually necessary, I don’t really think there’s a significant downside to letting people get three free chances to escape. It’s not needed to prevent facecamping because the main way to get off a hook is still going to be someone else doing a rescue after the killer leaves, not a self rescue, if there’s only a base 12% or so chance of it happening. And by removing the loss or progression from the system it gives Luck effects a needed buff.
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I am torn. On one hand I totally get where you are coming from, but on the other hand a self unhook takes away SO much of the killers pressure and I have a good amount of safe, bagged up 4K games being turned upside down due to one unlucky (or lucky) 4% base unhook. When 3 peeps got nothing to lose they all throw the dice, and throw enough di00e and you will roll a lucky number.
Its the razors edge dance with hope vs despair: it just feels miserable to be left with no other option and just having to watch the killer clean up, so the 4% give the survivors one last chance of defiance and to get away with their lifes. With 15x4% you get about a 60% chance at base that one of the team makes the throw, so with a teamwide salty lips and slippery meat build you could push this very much into the survivors favor.
Especially with the new basekit BT a lucky unhook in the endgame can feel absolutely crushing to the killers morale. If its slippery meat or deliverance? Fine, ok, they build for it. But if its just the 4% chance? That feels unearned and unfair. Just imagine if the killer got a 4% chance to instadown any survivor if all 4 are still alive during the EGC. Tbh, that could actually work, but it would also massively increase the frustration levels when it happens.
And what other options do we have besides playing with the numbers? We could add a skill based minigame instead of a pure chance of luck to unhook yourself: hit three hard skill checks in a row and you are out. But this would favor some very skilled players massively, while leaving others unable to ever do it. At least a 4% dice roll is the same for everyone involved, no matter your skill level.
So in the end I talked a lot and got no where. I don't know how to tackle any of this and what direction would be a healthy one.
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You know what? I would love to have a regular (like every two weeks) short PTB where just one dumb and cracy stuff gets changed, a variable that would normally be too wild to see in a life game, just to see how it actually affects gameplay. 1-2% unhooks with no first hook stage progression, a game with all aura reading perks increased and buffed for every killer but the Nurse, more basekit perks, just to see the interaction etc. And every now and then this approach would strike gold and we would find something that actually benefits the game in a way that no one could have forseen and it goes life.
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The problem with trying to make self unhooking viable is that it weakens a tool killers have to create pressure and killers don't really need that. It's the same thing with wiggling. If survivors could more easily escape the killer's grasp or self unhook themselves, there's less need for other teammates to stop working on gens, meaning there's less overall pressure survivors have to worry about.
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How about we change it to you are guaranteed to self unhook but you get a lot of debuffs in exchange. So for instance you get broken for 3 minutes, also get deep wound timer and debuff to actions for 3 minutes at lets say 25%.
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use deliverance ?
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I get where you're coming from, and I by no means want unhooks to become super common. Dropping the base chance to 1% or even 0.5% would fit. And the survs would have to devote substantial resources, perks, offerings. So it would take away from other things, gen rushing perks, dead hard. Shake up the meta a bit. So they gain unhooks but lose other advantages. Because at the moment all of the luck based offerings, and there are like 5 of them, along with 2 perks are utterly useless to the point of being actively detrimental.
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It's more I'd like the luck offerings to have a use. Since they are a dead item atm.
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Also, how about this:
Slippery Meat - get two extra chances to unhooked you during he first hook stage and two unhooking attempts during und struggle (2nd) stage.
You would probably devote two perks to this, ie Slippery Meat and UP The Ante, plus salty lips, but you would still bank on a chance stacked against you, while giving you and your team massive upper hand against the killer if it works.
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No Comms in solo-q
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If my survivor games get so easy that being hooked is not a team required issue I think that will be time to leave permanently.
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If you think I want unhooking to be that consistent, then you didn't read my OP or any of the discussion properly.
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the problem is that its pretty unfair for a self-unhook to happen. In the end game, self-unhooking yourself with base-kit self bt can create situations where the killer loses a game just from pure rng. I always saw the kobe mechanic as more of self-suicide/give up mechanic. I am not sure how I feel about the mechanic. in many games, your teammate creates reckless situations where you lose a game as survivor just because your teammate preemptively gives up. Games that could been won possibly become instant losses. At the same time, you cannot force a player to stay in a game that he/she does not wish to continue to participate.
speaking of which, I think there should be self-suicide mechanic for when survivor a survivor is slugged. Given that they have give-up mechanic on hooks, why not have give-up mechanic on slug's?
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So I've got 13 days playtime and, not counting deliverance, have unhooked myself precisely twice. Once it didn't help and we still got 4k'd. First time i managed it was during endgame and I managed to escape. Amazing escape particularly because the killer had been face camping me while last 2 gens were being finished.
Tbh even if unhooks happen more often I dont see it causing many clutch unhooks during EGC. Because not many survivors reach EGC without getting hooked at least once.
And I highly doubt it's intended as a deliberate suicide mechanic. Just an unlikely roll of the dice if nobody is obviously going to bother unhooking you.
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I had a situation where we had a 3 vs 1 situation during the EGC. I had hooked two survivors and was chasing the third towards a 99ed gate. 2/3 of the way there one of the other two survivors KOBEed himself, unhooked his mate and all three escaped. He had neither Deliverance nor slippery meat or anything, this was a pure roll of the dice and no way to anticipate or counter this. Well, I could have camped the hooks, but yeah who would have done that? shrug Stuff like that happens.
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Yh but it's rare. These self unhook stories are our 1 in a million ones.
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True, but I am more ok with it when it happens due to a build and dedicated perks. Same as you cant really be angry at a survivor escaping your clutches via Adrenalin+Hope, they played the whole game with only two perks and then zoomed off to safety. If someone has Slippery Meat, Up the Ante and some salty lips, sure it sucks when they unhook in my face, but that was their build and I will take it with dignity and make sure that the next survivor meets my Tombstone Myers.
But no one runs Slippery Meat, so thats why I got the idea of possibly giving it the extra ability to try for a second stage unhooking. Even with all perks and items the chance would still be less then a 50/50, but at least it would make Slippery Meat a bit more attractive and make a good meme build.
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Yeah, it would be nice for those perks not to be hot garbage. Like a team can devote half their perks, and all their offerings. And odds are they will ruin their own chances of escaping by all going to second stage. 🤣
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