The Amanda's Letter add-on for The Pig has been Kill Switched due to an issue with incorrect RBT count.
http://dbd.game/killswitch
A Proper "Nerf Nurse" Thread
Comments
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It was not an insult, differently from these people that they are not good for any game. Because they will say the most inappropriate and horrible things in the endgame chat, and ruin other survivors experience as well mid-trial
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Killrates are not meaningful.
Does the killrates mean that Sadako is overperforming? Do we now just nerf Sadako?
It doesnt make sense to sit here and say Nurse isnt overperforming by using killrates but sit here ignore the fact that Sadako, the weakest killer in the game, a killer significantly weaker than Nurse, has the highest killrates above most other killers. The data does not show anything in regards to balance, Im tired of people using it as an excuse for balance.
Again, I provided an explanation behind the killrates, showing off what can be interpreted from the data, and how people are misusing the data. Please take the time to read through it and try to understand it because all you've done is ignore important information in which I have provided instead of repeating the same things over and over but not providing a proper explanation.
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She’s not even overperforming in the stats. Over half the killers are within a 5% kill rate difference. That’s barely anything.
And again, you keep talking about theoretical perfect performance scenarios. That’s not how real human players in real life are performing. In real life, human players aren’t overperforming with Nurse in matchmaking games, when you combine all the MMR levels together.
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Yet again you are literally ignoring the information I put. I literally provided an explanation for the data, it's right there, yet you keep making the same statements and pretending like it isnt there.
Also it is how real human players in real life are performing, because I took that into account when making the post, besides, where the hell would I get the basis for the information? There is no AI that exists that just plays the game at peak performance for us (other than cheaters, but cheaters are often banned and excluded from the data, and most cheater AI play other killers than Nurse as well, mainly Spirit), so all the data is from real humans, since it is literally the only source.
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Nurse is fine if you are good she dont need a nerf
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Or maybe your explanation of the data wasn’t relevant or valid.
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This subject is useless, everyone is already in agreement for the nurse's blink attacks to become special attacks.
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Otherwise actually making an umpteenth subject on the nurse is useless.
But since there are thousands of people who are not aware or who want to make their ideas heard at all costs, we are not moving forward.
It's a time loop.
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Besides I realize that this forum is not at all useful to help the developers to improve the game, because you will notice that the nurse will never be reworked again.
I hope you know that the devs and core players consider the nurse to be fine in her current state.
All the posts concerning the nurse are therefore quite useless.
You would think that the developers are preparing something and say nothing until it is ready as they often do for certain announcements.
But it's wrong.
Nothing is planned for her, and you know it
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You are all there to fight, to fight over and over on this subject, whether on discord, on reddit, on the forum.
Are you tired of going around in circles without any results?
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If you are told that the nurse is fine in her current state and that she will never be touched up, what will change your life in the game?
Are you going to stop talking about it knowing that no idea will be taken into account by BHVR?
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when will you understand?
When are you going to stop?
Aren't you exhausted?
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Do you mind like not spamming the comments?
This thread is about discussing Nurse mostly, and less about forcing BHVR to change things. I like discussing and debating things, as well as seeing people do it, so I made this thread.
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The nurse can only know the identity of the exposed survivor with Flood of range, and its aura detection. And she has to be at 32 meters, moreover.
Regarding NOED, as I said, I agree that it is too powerful a perk on the nurse. I also think that NOED is a perk that could totally disappear from the game without being problematic, because sometimes it carries killers that get dominated during the whole game (not very logical in itself).
As for Haunted Ground, the malus can be avoided by hiding until it passes; that's exactly what happened to me, with my survival team and a nurse who had it. Luckily, nobody was chasing us, so we stayed hidden for the duration of the malus, and then we resumed the game as normal.
Obviously if it is triggered while someone is chasing, the latter can be accelerated, but the 3 others can still hide and resume the game.
As for Starstruck, the solution is quite simple: just decrease the TR of the nurse when she carries a survivor.
As for Devour Hope, it is indeed a very powerful skill on the nurse; but does it justify preventing her from using it? No, it doesn't.
Concerning the "future advantages" you're talking about, it's up to the developers to think about these advantages, before implementing them, and to think about the synergies they will have with this or that killer.
You don't change a killer AFTER a new perk gives him too much power, it's the perk that needs to be redesigned.
Let's say a new perk is created for the survivors:
"Last opportunity.
If you are in good health, and you lose a segment of health following a basic attack, you will run at 200% of your speed for 30s."
Now imagine players complaining and saying, "This perk is too powerful because survivors become absolutely unstoppable! We need to nerf the survivors!", we agree that we would reply, "No, we just need to nerf the perk, not the survivors."
It's the same thing with the nurse and the new benefits that are coming.
And regarding turning perks into addons, it's a bad idea, simply because there's no reason why a nurse can't use Sloopy Butcher if she feels like it, for example, or Knocked Out, if it makes her happy.
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This would be disastrous for the nurse, as it would be like giving the survivors a kind of reverse aimbot.
Knowing where the nurse is aiming all the time, they could avoid her all the time 😔
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It's a bit ironic to talk about the uselessness of this or that thing when in the rest of your sentence, you try to pass off the opinion of a few people as a general truth by using a generalization...🙄
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There is also something that occurred to me about the nurse's killrate, which is, from memory, around 53%.
Some people make the argument, "The nurse is fine because her killrate is correct."
So far, I understand the argument.
To which others respond, "No, the killrate is biased because it doesn't take into account the players' DCs against the nurse."
An argument I also completely understand.
Indeed, it is reasonable to think that the players who DC as soon as they hear the first blink of the nurse are players who would not have been able to/will not play against her anyway.
We can therefore reasonably classify them as "potential kills for the nurse".
In other words, these DCs, which are not counted in the nurse's killrate, are in fact uncounted "kills", which should therefore increase her killrate.
So far, I agree.
But this is where it gets a little tricky.
Everyone will agree that when these players DC because "I don't like the nurse", they do it in early game.
DC in early game is like completely distorting the game, leaving 4 or 5 generators to repair for 3 survivors, against the strongest killer in the game. No need to draw you a picture, 3K (or 2K if trap).
Therefore, EVERY time a player DCs against the nurse, he actually distorts the nurse's killrate himself because if he had stayed, maybe she would have done the same number of kills (3), but maybe less, in any case, never more.
Some people might then reply to me, "Yes, but the number of DCs is anecdotal, so the number of falsified games is too."
Okay, but then there's a dilemma.
Either there are a LOT of DCs against the nurse in the early game, and thus, a LOT of games artificially giving her extra kills, and thus an upwardly biased killrate.
mber of DCs is NOT enough to offer enough "fake wins" to bias her killrate upwards, BUT in this case, it means that the number of DCs is basically anecdotal AND, if this is the case, the argument : "The nurse's killrate is not compliant because it doesn't take into account DCs that should be kills" is no longer valid, because the killrate would only be very slightly increased
It would be interesting if BHVR could indicate what the nurse's killrate is, if they were counting DCs as deaths, as well as the proportion of DCs that exist in games against the nurse.
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AFAIK games in which someone DC's are not counted. So if 1 survivor DC's, then it's not 1K that is not counted in for nurse. It's "4K" that are not part of statistics.
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Oh, okay, I didn't know that detail! So, we can say that the killrate of the killers is completely representative of the reality of the games :-)
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it's the best that we have. And it does not rely on someone's feeling or personal experience.
Meaning I could take trapper without any addons on say crow's map and get easy 4K if survivors don't pay attention to any traps and fall for them like crazy - from this personal experience I could say trapper is very OP and in fact needs huge nerf to traps especially (make them glow or something). Or maybe I played that game against people that just started the game and it's unfair comparison. How do I get something that's more fair? Right - by looking at large number of games. Which in the end are killer stats provided by game.
Sure enough such raw data probably needs some context/interpretation, but that thing needs to be backed up by said data. So for example if we see that nurse IS much stronger than the data suggest, then maybe we need to look why that could be the case. And one explanation is, that games that would be in her favor are actually filtered out (not counted) - because they would fall into DC category. So maybe that is the actual case. There might be some different reason, but nobody gave any alternate plausible explanation. So I am going with DC's actually screw up nurse's kill rate.
The point being - you are fully allowed to criticize reasons/interpretation of the statistics. But not the stats itself. That is just wrong and shows the bias you have (I don't like those stats so they have to be wrong).
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I may have misspoken about these statistics, I am not criticizing them at all; I would be hard pressed to do so, as we are not even sure of some of the details 🤗
It would be interesting to have an official response from BHVR (or a link to said response, which may have already been given somewhere) on the following:
- Are DCs counted as "kills"? Or are they just not counted in the killrate of the killers?
- when a player DCs in a game, is that game counted in the killrate of the killer it is?
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I myself am not 100% sure. They did not write anything. It was only in one of their streams that they talked about it (and it wasn't even the most recent one) - so sure enough, I could have misunderstood. But know what? I will look for that stream and will post the link with correct timeline - so you can judge for yourself :)
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We're falling into the trap of discussing specific perks again, when the problem is the ability to use Exposed at all with a power that travels through walls.
But, to continue for a moment- Make Your Choice causes the affected survivor to scream, so unless there are duplicates of a specific survivor in the match (which, to be fair, does happen sometimes) the Nurse will know who it is that's affected. No comment on NOED, but Haunted Grounds is often paired with Retribution, and there's no waiting it out when your location is visible through walls.
Devour Hope is the one I most want to comment on, though, because of course it justifies the Nurse not being able to use it. The problem is that being able to instadown people through walls is too strong, so any perk that allows her to do that is a problem-- that's why I tried to steer away from discussing the specific perks, because the ability to do it at all presents balance problems.
It's also why the perks themselves aren't too strong. Unlike survivor perks, killer perks have a range of strengths depending on which killer uses them, and I don't think a single killer should have such a chokehold on an entire genre of perks when changing that single killer is a much more appropriate call. None of the perks we're discussing are overpowered or obnoxious on any other killer for the most part, it's just Nurse.
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Ok I can't find it. When I do, I will try to return to this post
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The developers mentioned when MMR was first introduced that DCs are not treated as kills in the MMR system, nor are they treated as escapes or dying. Killers neither lose or gain MMR if a survivor DCs, but survivors lose MMR if they DC.
Considering how DCs are treated with MMR, they are probably excluded from killrates since the developers have stated they dont count as kills. But DCs still do affect killrates by making matches unwinnable for either side. People can DC to deny slowdown perks and cost the killer their game; people can DC at the start of the match and put the survivors in an unable position. It goes both ways.
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The ideas I picked are not suppose to all by used at once, you can mix and match them, they are just community ideas I grabbed because I thought they were neat, and since I think it would create a great talking point for the community.
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"Make Your Choice causes the affected survivor to scream, so unless there are duplicates of a specific survivor in the match (which, to be fair, does happen sometimes) the Nurse will know who it is that's affected."
This presupposes that the killer is able to recognize the survivor by his scream alone; I suspect that some players are so used to this that they can do it, but honestly, I don't think it's the first way to locate a target with this perk. And even if the nurse determines that it's, say, Feng Min who's exposed, if he can't find her because she's keeping a low profile until the malus wears off, it's still the same.
In fact, it is mostly the coupling of MYC with Flood of Rage that is dangerous, as well as the Haunted Grounds / Retribution combo, or Devour Hope.
When my team and I come across a retribution killer, the moment we know the perk is activated, we do our best to place ourselves in places where the killer will have the most difficulty taking advantage of it; of course, of course, this doesn't protect us 100%, but it allows us to last the 15s more safely than if we just kept doing what we were doing.
But this is also the principle of the game; the nurse cannot be left with only basic or weak skills because she is basically strong. We can for example avoid aberrations like Starstruck or NOED, but we must not fall into pure and simple exaggeration.
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The only reason why MYC is 30s is nurse (maybe spirit with MDR, and now maybe wesker - still they aren't nearly so good at it). All the other killers don't have mobility to turn and use (so no blight because M1) that expose in those 30s to get that down. The perk is trash tier on anybody else. It needs to be at least 45s maybe even 60s long. But it can't. Because nurse exists and she already gets value out of it as is.
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A solution for MYC would be to change the nurse's M1 to M3 (a special attack of her own); and to modify MYC in the following way:
- during the first 30 seconds, MYC would give a special malus to the survivor, a kind of "super exposed", which would work with M1 but also with M3
- from the 31st second, and up to 60s (to use your example) MYC would switch to a classic "exposed" malus, which would only work with an M1
Also, we can keep in mind that on paper, MYC allows you to one-shot a survivor, but in practice, it is obviously different.
If the nurse is hunting someone else when MYC activates, she gets no value from it; if the survivor has Vigil, he or she is only exposed for 21s (if my calculations are correct).
Although a strong perk, it is still situational.
PS : Of course, some nurses play like [insert insult of choice] and wait in the distance, keeping the hook in sight, so they can instantly return to the closest survivor affected (sort of like proxi camping), but that is independent of the perk.
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It's not just MYC that needs to be held back because nurse exists. AA got the same treatment. And I am pretty sure there are many more perks suffering from exactly the same thing.
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AA ?
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awakened awareness
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It was obvious that this perk was going to be nerfed; in fact, even when used by other killers, the version of the original perk that showed auras AFTER the hook would have given them too much power. This perk should simply have been designed as it is now 🤗
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I just read first page of this thread, and i'm going to read the rat, but i need to add my two cents here.
What is Nurse problem exactly?
Before starting to repair her, we need to adress the exact problem.
Nurse was designed to hide and seek dead by daylight as it was back before community discovered, and mastered looping.
To counter Nurse, maybe we should work with her view? She supposed to be played not by looping, but by braking line of sight, we should be able to hide well against her.
Also, idea of making her attacks requiring 1 more hit to be effective seems good to reduce her power. Exposed status would work, and reduce number of hits to 2 from 3.
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"Also, idea of making her attacks requiring 1 more hit to be effective seems good to reduce her power."
No thanks. I can assure you that games against full DH, OTR, Styptic Agent, etc. are the most horrible things for nurses to experience.
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Youre saying that when literally every other killer would have to deal with the exact same thing, but probably worse considering the amount of map offerings you see.
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Endurance, and dead hard protects from injuries, applying this special status would work even when survivor is under endurance, and after that everything would looks like current. So its not as big difference, as you try to see it.
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There is really a random who dares to suggest that The Nurse must take 3 hits to bring down a survivor?
Haven't you read that regarding hits, the only viable thing to do is to transform these blink attacks into special attacks and that's it.
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Unless I misunderstood, the suggestion was to change the way the nurse attacked, and only her way; the other killers were not affected.
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Yet, the idea was to have his first attack just apply some sort of haunting to the survivor, right?
The result would have been: hit 1 = 0 damage + haunt, hit 2 = wounded status, hit 3 = critical status? Did I understand correctly?
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She does not have other rather than her blink attacks, unless specific addons, and careless survivors. Imagine deathslinger who cant hit survivors other than chained ones...
But i have other idea.
Her attacks are just attacks. But:
When she blinks in 2m radius from the survivor she screams and is put into instant fatigue, but survivor become haunted.
When she blinks near haunted survivor, then she dont sceam and can hit normally.
Haunted status can be cured outside killer terror radius by other survivor.
If survivor was not haunted for last 120s they became haunted.
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So, with this haunted state system, to put a survivor down, you would have to make a first "hit" to start the haunting, then a second, to take away a first segment of health, then a 3rd to take away a 2nd segment of health 😮
This would be like adding an extra hit just to put a survivor down, which would make the nurse's gameplay catastrophic 😔
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By changing her Basic Attack to a Special Attack, the only things that change is that Nurse does not have access to Exposed perks and they cant use perks that activate on Basic Attacks (Sloppy Butcher), the fundamental function of hitting survivors does not change at all, just more hits are required to down a survivor.
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Changing his M1 to M2 would prevent him from using NOED, Franklin, Jolt, Sloppy Butcher and K.O.
Except for NOED which I totally agree with, I see no reason why the nurse cannot use the other perks mentioned above.
Regarding Starstruck, a deletion of her TR when she carries a survivor is enough.
Concerning the other remaining "Exposed" perks, we have Dragon's Grip (that can easily be let out ), Make your choice (that can easily be let out if not coupled with Floods of rage), Haunted Ground (that can easily be let out , except for the survivor who might be chased bye the nurse), Hubris (will never be used against the nurse, unless you Head On or manage to knock her out with a pallet), Iron Maiden (that can easily be let out ) and Rancor (that can easily be let out unless survivors are already dead and/or the nurse couples this perk with others allowing to change the survivor obsession).
Apart from NOED and Starstruck which I agree are too strong on the nurse, only Devour Hope and possibly Make your Choice are really dangerous when used by the nurse. The others remain very situational, and if the survivors stay hidden during the duration of the malus, it will not generate any value.
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The ideas I put up are not suppose to all be done at once. These are just ideas from the community that I liked and highlight as talking points for the community.
But with DBD still having more content ahead of itself, making Nurse's attack a Special Attack is the safest option, since there can be further perks that are released that prove to be problematic on Nurse.
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I know what you mean; but on the one hand, as I explained, there is no reason to deprive the nurse of the above-mentioned perks, and on the other hand, it is not the nurse who has to suffer from a future perk, even if it is still invented, which could possibly be too strong. It is up to the developers to create a perk taking into account all aspects of the game present at the time of its creation.
On the other hand, what the developers could do to increase the power of the killers WITHOUT affecting the nurse's power, would be to transform the nurse's M1 into an M3, a new type of attack that would be unique to her, so that she could modulate certain attacks only on the other killers.
Example I had given before:
Jolt triggered by an M1: 40m radius
Jolt triggered by an M3 : 32m radius
K.O. triggered by an M1: current malus + new malus reinforcing the perk
K.O. triggered by an M3 : current malus only
Sloppy Butcher triggered by an M1 : current malus + intermittent screams of wounded survivors
Sloppy Butcher triggered by an M3 : current malus only
Etc.
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Not really. Applying haunting dont need hit, but not haunted survivors will prevent her from attacking if she showed up in 2m from her, but...
She would cause haunted status in all serrounding survivors.
Blinking further than 2m would not make her scream, and if blink is placed well, survivor will run to You before fatigue and thus = regular hit.
And there is more situations, but the point is that her attacks would still be m1, she will be punished from mistakes even against exposed survs, and at the same time she will be rewarded for perfect blinks/good guessing/mindgames, and for survivors mistakes.
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That would be incredibly tedious to do for every single perk just for one single killer. BHVR wouldnt do it, and there are better workarounds.
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I was just giving examples of up some skills without the nurse being able to take advantage of them 🤗
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I mean yea, I get that, but considering how BHVR is prone to bandaid fixing things, Im just saying something like that probably wont ever make it in the game, even if having perks effect each killer uniquely could make a lot of things better and fix problem areas.
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