Is camping going to be next?
Since BHVR is working to remove sluging with basekit ubreakable and basekit mori for killer, would it be possible the next quality of life change is going to be camping
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They have often said that they are looking into game mechanics against facecamping - though without punishing strategic camping or enabling survivors to abuse these mechanics. So.. maybe they will try something after the Mori changes.
that said, the PTB with the Finisher Mori and the ability for survivors to pick themselves up was just an early test and might not even look like this when it comes to a future PTB again as they will very likely change it. Also it didn’t even remove slugging and some killers (especially on Nurse) have shown that slugging could still be very rewarding in that PTB
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Hopefully.
They should reward showing skill. Getting 10 hooks and two kills should be more rewarding than 2 hooks 2 kills.
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They already have a solution to Camping and to making Tunnelling harder. Just rework Pyramid Head's Cages into the game's natural Hooking process. Every killer triggers an animation, survivor is sent away and there you go, 1 less hook state. They can even have different animations for each killers.
You can change all Hook Perks to work with this aswell, which gives anti tunnel Perks new strength since you already have a big headstart. And you now also give killers their hook perks. Some perks will actually benefit from this. Make Your Choice is easier to procc, Devour Hope stacks are easier to get aswell, etc This solution buffs both sides in numerous ways. Makes saves easier for survivors so absolutly no one should be left behind because the save was "impossible". The quick animation also gives killers more time to effectively patrol gens and spread pressure. Buffs high mobility killers but gives less mobility killers a quicker way to apply pressure where needed without wasting time and risking pick up saves.
Pick up saves would only really work in locker scenarios but those are being written out. Pallet saves won't really happen either. Some perks need to get reworked. There's a reason to change some other barely used perks like Buckle Up, Boil Over, Flip Flop.
The process eliminates the need for slugging too unless for some reason the killer wants to. Given that base kit UB might come in play then there's a natural counter to it despite not being needed much.
Honestly it's something that should definetly be tested.
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It's pretty straightforward to remove unhook grabs from healthy, that's a pretty huge incentive to camp. Especially against newer players that don't know about the stupid unhook spam "counter".
Then we just need to deal with killer powers that allow for camping. Imo, fixing Bubba and Billy facecamping is actually pretty straightforward. Double the overheat rate when within 8 meters of a hook, halve the overheat rate when outside of it. Make the unhook animation not get cancelled by getting hit by their power while unhooking, which forces a trade.
If they really wanted to, they could even make Bubba tantrum after downing a survivor who was in unhook animation, to prevent him from chasing the unhooked player right off hook after the unhook finished due to the change mentioned earlier.
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Wasn´t camping addressed with basekit BT?
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Not really. It certainly helps against tunneling a bit, and can help against camping a little as well. But the hook phase timers staying the same after gens got increased buffed camping indirectly as well, so it's arguably an even bigger problem than before the 6.1.0 update.
Also, hook grabs are still a thing, BT won't help against that. And certain killers have still insane camping capabilities as well, especially Bubba.
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Well, lets see if the devs change their opinion on camping. Originally it was a "feature".
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Go ahead. Then all that's left for killer is going for random chases, no strategy, and hoping the survivors play bad and let them win.
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That would been good help for soloQ before 6.1 patch but since then camping got big buffs slower gens but as fast hook timer and faster recovery from basic attack. Before that survivor didn't have to trade instead they could just dh away from hook and killer didn't get free down. With STBL you can even make trading very hard. I have used that perk many times to camp at endgame and turned 1K into 4K. Hook graps should be removed and hook timer should be bit longer then camping is fine.
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BHVR has already addressed camping with basekit BT.
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It is a feature, doesn't mean that a feature can't be badly executed and unbalanced.
It needs to cost the killer more to do.
Best solution would be an increase to repair speeds when the killer is within x meters for x seconds.
Some kind of Bloodlust-like system would be good. Where 20s of camping increases repair speeds globally by +5%, 40s by +10% and 60s by +15%. This could easily cost the killer an extra gen or two when they camp and reduce the chances of them securing any further kills by playing that way.
This wouldn't be abusable by survivors, because in order to profit they would have to 'just do gens' instead of baiting the killer to stay near the hook.
If you made it 'all action speeds' and not just repair speeds then you could also apply a 15% bonus to unhooking speed too, making it easier to mount a rescue after a hook stage has been camped. The killer might secure one extra hook stage but it'll be harder to secure the entire kill from first hook.
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Uhm hold your horses buddy.
Slugging and protecting the hook are core parts of the game, I doubt they will just allow Survivors a free escape from being captured.
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i feel like the wish from one side for this to become basekit is that big, it gets spread as the only truth.
kinda sick of reading all those celebrations about UB basekit when it didnt even got confirmed yet. Sounds like doomsday to me. remember 12.12.2012? We all survived somehow XD
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Only difference i see is, that instead of the rescuer DHing away (leaving the rescued survivor vulnerable to the killer), the rescued attempts to body block.
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The issue with a bloodlust like mechanic is, that the system sometimes doesn´t recognize that the killer is in a chase. Every Huntress player knows how its like to be looped around a rock and loosing bloodlust.
Ironically, our own community does everything it can to prevent the devs from introducing mechanics that would help with the big issues. When the devs tested a hook pause while the killer is close to the hook, the survivors looped the killer around the hook. When the devs tested the endurance effects to reset, survivors stacked them to get 5 hit downs.
I´m sure, that there are devs that do nothing else than trying to figure out ways to make the game more balanced/fun. Meanwhile our community finds ways to abuse it.
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As one who have spend a lot of time as killer in the past, i have to say that the state of the game is really bad for most killers, its so stressing and they REALLY are in a hurry, gens have gotten +10 secs each, but the game have so manny gen rush perks now that those 10 secs isnt enough.
I hate beeing tunneled and camped, but i also get why it happens.
If gens were flying too fast and i really didnt get any hooks because of various factors, when i finnaly got a hook, it was all about to keep that guy, because i also knew that survivors probably were holding back the last gen on 99% until they had saved their buddy.
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If camping and tunneling would be gone one day... What would most of the non-meta Killers do? Go for hooks? Would that he healthy? Yes! But the game is not balanced around doing X+ hooks and going for each Survivor. It takes too long and gens would fly. You would have to make all killers at least A tier which wouldn't be probably possible. You would have to nerf maps for Survivors a lot, etc. You would have to make chases be way faster. Etc.
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There definitely needs to be some tuning if they're going with this. PH's cages can easily be camped, and he can actually guarantee a down off of a cage save if he's got good timing (anti tunnel perks/basekit BT are nice, but won't get you far against good killers if they smack you immediately). A larger range/shorter timer for teleporting would be nice, but that would need to be balanced to prevent a killer sending it away every time survivors get close and any other edge cases that crop up.
While teleporting away solves camping if survivors can quickly rescue, there are also instances where they can't, or the killer can make it there just as fast, and that needs to be looked at as well. Because then the killer can just camp that new location. It also would require reworking a large portion of the game, including basement and basement related achievements.
It's definitely a hard problem to fix and I can't say I have a 100% effective solution myself.
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I like how there're already perks to equip to counter certain playstyles. Imagine using them.
Camping: Kindred, Reassurance, Kinship
Tunneling: Borrowed Time, Sprint Burst, For the People, (DS)
Slugging: Unbreakable, Soul Gard, We're Gonna Live Forever
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If they do expect killers buff again
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It does on emblems
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I think survivors should spawn in exit gates with the gens completed for the next QOL update
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Why bother having killers at all? Let the survivors play in a land of unicorns and pretty flowers.
If a killer camps etc it's their choice. It might be unpopular but trying to enforce survivor "rules" doesn't wash.
You pay your money. Play how you want
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It would be great if they could find a way to address the camping and tunnelling hard off hook issue. There are perks/tactics (do gens) to deal with it already but they aren't that effective and don't seem to discourage it much.
It would be great if chases were more of an incentive to some killers but I suspect that no matter what you do there will be those people who will still face-camp/tunnel for pure troll value to get a reaction.
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I propose a new perk for survivors: grab hold.
The perk works like dead hard but instead of ignoring the hit the survivor grabs the killer. The killer and the survivor are then both stuck in place for 90 seconds. At the end of the perk time the survivor suffers an automatic hook increase. If the killer leaves the game because this is boring it counts as a disconnect. If the killers complain about it being boring, well, play how to want.
The above perk would be awful, but that's kind of what camping is like, especially if we throw in Bubba. It's just two players sitting and the logical counter is for survivors just to sit at a gen. Is it something that could be done under the game design, yes, but its boring. We could add lots of other boring elements to the game, but we shouldn't.
That said, "fixing" camping is a difficult question because too far in the other direction would give a huge advantage to survivors. But I never understand when a response to a complaint that something makes a game unfun is just 'well, do whatever you want'. By its nature a game has things that can and cannot be done (survivors can't build a ladder to climb the wall, killers can't take apart a generator).
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This effect wouldn't involve any chases.
And yes those hook pause effects were abused by survivors. As I stated repair speed effects can't be abused by survivors.
If survivors attempt to bait the killer to staying within x meters of the hook, they're sacrificing at least one whole survivor not on a gen.
A whole survivor repairing is worth more than the +15% bonus for the remaining two.
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Nobody cares if killers kill, people just want to play the game.
When a killer just stands by a hook themselves and the person they are camping are denied the best part of the game - the chases. You are ruining the game for someone else and they don't get to 'play how they want' because someone else denies them the fun part of the game to instead stand in one spot
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Maybe let basekit unbreakable hit first before moving on to the next bashing target XD
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Dude you can pretty much do like 4 gens already if someone is camping from first hook to death, so basically you just want to complete all 5 gens before the person even dies and then they can probably all swarm the hook and get the rescue anyway & escape.
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Ideally they would as they should put more value in hooks, not kills, as hooks are more reflective of skill than kills are.
However they consistently (and have for years) made changes to de-incentivize the killer from pursuing chases, IE forcing the killer back into camping/tunneling/slugging.
So they simultaneously say/imply they want those things to be less prevalent while also actively nerfing things that reward killers for good chases. Their goals and changes they implement are in complete opposite directions.
This is why currently against actually good survivors you are forced to do some variation of camping/tunneling/slugging as is it required in how they balance the game. They do not balance the game where 12 hooks is even possible against actually competent survivors.
So in an ideal world we'd make it where that was possible and simultaneously nerf camping/tunneling even more. IE we'd need significant killer buffs if we were to essentially make tunneling/camping non viable as it's currently required. However, we've been telling them this for literally years and you can see where we currently are with all that.
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It's not very easy to change camping without hurting players who are taken to said hook or are looped near it or the survivors unhooking in front of the killer.
And Ill tell you that adding more and more ways for survivors to have safe unhooks isn't the way to go in the long run.
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You're right but at that moment rather than something that can't be prevented it becomes killer player choice to look for that. If the game was in this scenario then the game had already done it's job and the player is just deciding to look for that survivor.
As long as we can say the game did what it had to do then we can't fault it anymore like we can now. Yes even right now tunnelling and camping is mostly a choice made by the killer but the way the game is currently set up favors that scenario. All i wish is to change the scenario so that camping and tunnelling becomes a time waster for killer instead of dramatically reducing the pressure killers are under.
I don't believe in strategic camping. "Strategic Camping" is Camping and that's it. Killers shouldn't fear a Rescue, they should feel empowered by getting a Hook. That empowered feeling should be such that they actively look for the next victim.
For these reasons is why i think Dying Light needs a revision. It's a Perk that benefits multiple Hooks. The issue is Dying Light only gets value too late in the game. A change could be made so that the Perk has some early game value and once you've Hooked all 4 Survivors once you get a boost to that value.
Imagine Dying Light starts off a match with a 5% slowdown on all game progressing actions (including opening gates) and self healing, then with each First Hook it increases it by 2.5%, so after 4 First Hooks, a Hook on every Survivor, you're looking at 15% Slowdown on all game progressing actions and self healing. The numbers can be tweaked a bit for better results if these aren't enough. It could start at 7% base value and then each First Hook only giving 2% increase. It can start at 5% and the max be 10% by having each First Hook give 2.25%. I don't think DL should exceed the 15% slowdown without proper testing.
It's half the value of Pentimento but in a more friendly scenario. The killer is actively engaging all survivor players and it's not forcing any survivor to look for any RNG spawns that just make the process even more frustrating.
The Perk will lokk strong thx to it's initial benefits but imo it's not super detrimental to survivors either. There's counters for it already. Team work will still offset the scales in survivor favor but DL new initial slowdown gives the killer just a bit more time, that some killers really need, Trapper, Myers, Hag, Demo. Toolboxes still exist aswell, so survivors would have options to offset the Revised Dying Light.
The fact that there's an initial benefit to DL favors all killers equally and the fact that the scalling isn't so high makes it so better killers like Nurse, Spirit and Blight won't get so much more value, they can double the value quickly but they are only getting that value from First Hooks so they need First Hooks which levels the playing field a bit in terms of tunneling but for other killers that value is very apreciated, it buys them more time to get the next First Hook and buff their Perk and improve their time of play.
I've already considered the tunnelling options after just the initial Slowdown from DL and getting 1 or 2 or 3 or 4 First Hooks and then tunneling someone out. I'm not forgetting Perk stackability either.
The point i want to make is that as long as the game is incentivizing heavily going for new targets and not just Tunnel and Camp then i'll be happy.
Personally if DL worked this way, i'd use it alot. While i understand it's a flat passive non breakable boost for killers just by having the Perk equiped that's still a better solution than facing 4 slowdown Perks.
Would you still see people stack more slowdown on this? Ofc you would. People will stack slowdown always as long as the game allows them to. Same goes for stacking healing speed, repair speed, vault speed, other animations, movement speed, etc.
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Do you play this game to stand in place?
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If really effective campers like bubba are nerfed so they cant guarantee a kill at the hook, its going to be fine since with camping you can do an exchange and if you continue to do that the killer is going to loose.
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They should just increase hook times by 20 seconds or so to compensate for all generators taking an additional 10 seconds to complete. Those longer gen times has directly contributed to the increase of successful camping. Camping is a cheeezy mechanic that works VERY VERY well.
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Since BHVR is working on those things, I would imagine the next QOL change is going to be... you know... those things.
It's possible they will jump over those changes in favor of something else, but we don't really have any info as to what that would be. It's not like the code for basekit unbreakable is RIGHT NEXT to the code for camping, and they'll fix it real quick while they have the file open
Does it often feel random and strategy-less when you chase? Because I have a suggestion to improve that, if you're interested
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Wasn’t Bloodlust initially supposed to be like temporary? It became a permanent mechanic but when the devs introduced it they said it wouldn’t be.
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Not yet. But when you nerf every killer thing that lets them slow gens and chase, that's what it leads to.
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It doesn't feel random or without strategy but it can feel meaningless, or time inefficient no matter the circumstance. If the survivors run to a stupid strong area or are looping really good, you're supposed to leave them, but if you're doing that and not commiting to chases, you're just wasting time. And either way, the gens are getting slammed, whether the survivor you're chasing is running around 1-2 or not. I've found no killer strategy that changes these facts, and I don't expect to.
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A nerf to camping won't completely eradicate all types of strategy a killer has. Like what even is that logic? This game isn't just hard camping or only going for chases. Killer can go for chases, defend gens, and try and spread damage as effectively as possible.
Most people don't even want camping to be impossible, just not as effective as it is right now. With the right nerfs, proxy camping and a defensive playstyle could still be viable enough, but survivors would have a better and fairer fighting chance against killers that do nothing but camp most of the game.
That's at least the next step this game would need. Obviously camping can't be completely nerfed into the ground with how bad some of the map balance in the game still is, but it surely needs a nerf. Camping also is the strategy that takes the least amount of skill, by a far shot.
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Perfect solution to remove camping, let's call this status effect "Determination".
When the killer is within 24 meters to the hook while there's no survivor within 24 meters to the killer (excluding the hooked survivor), the survivors gain a point every second. Otherwise, the killer gains a point every second. There's a 10 second grace period before points accumulate.
If the survivors have more points than the killer, they gain the "Determination" status effect. Which does the following:
▪︎Prevents the survivor from being grabbed while unhooking.
▪︎Regardless of damage or health state, survivors will finish the unhook action.
We can then throw killers a few bones so they can go for more hooks.
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Yep and they even made a Bloodlust free weekend test to see if they could turn it permanently off. Since they thought that they had changed the map balance sufficiently to justify it.
Which resulted in a disaster and they never mentioned removing it again.
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they'll never fix camping. its been over 6 years since the game launched and they haven't done anything about it. why 6 years later would they try? likely they'll add some perks you can buy that will only make camping slightly less effective (while simultaneously releasing killers and perks that actually make camping easier).
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I like it, I remember thinking the same think when I was camped by the killer
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Free UB won't happen that would be insane and they would have to make Jolt or something like that basekit for killers, would not be fun for any sides.
If they can find a way to deal with facecamping they will try it probably because that would not be a big nerf for all killers just a part of low MMR killer players that do camp. In high MMR there are proxy camping sometimes but that is a strategy they have said is fine so.
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