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Is 4 slowdown perks too much?
Unpopular opinion: There should really be a cap of some sort
similar to how survivors can bring multiple exhaustion perks but can’t stack them
there should be something similar put in place for certain slow down perks e.g Call of Brine, Eruption, Overcharge, Pain res ect
Maybe make it so when kicking a gen only 1 regression perks effect will take place, or if a gen is already regressing via Eruption then it can’t be damaged again with perks like Jolt or Pain res until the regression stops
Comments
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Where is exactly the problem? Lets say Eruption, Overcharge and Call of Brine is in play.
And? You know a hard skillcheck is coming. Apart from that, there is only 1 Perkslot left. So no Spirit Fury/Enduring, no Chase-Perks etc.
I want to mix my perks from Gen-Regression, Gen-Block, Info and Chase.
Example: Pain Res, Dead Mans Switch, Barbecue, STBFL on Freddy.
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I do think it's too much as all those combos do is turn the game into an absolute chore as the match grinds to a complete halt, especially towards the end.
That being said, unless they decide to introduce some kind of perk points system (where you get X amount of points per equipped perks and stronger perks take more points to run), there shouldn't be a restriction on what perks any given player can use together
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I think regression perks of the same type shouldn't stack.
Perks that apply a repair speed debuff. (Pentimento, Thanatophobia, Dying Light, etc. Should be easy enough, only the most potent debuff is active at a time, or there's a maximum debuff at which no further potency is applied. for the record, the same should apply to healing and repair speed buffs too, probably +50% is fair, which is just slightly higher than Prove Thyself)
Perks that inflict instant regression. (Pop, Jolt, Eruption, Pain Res, etc. A little trickier to implement due to varying activation conditions. Perhaps an 'instant regression' effect has it's own 'Exhaustion' style debuff that prevents another one being used for x seconds, could be conditional on the perk. Jolt could be 10s, Pop relative to how much regression is applied, Eruption 15s, Pain Res 20s.)
Perks that block gens. (pretty much already do, you can't block a gen that's already blocked)
Perks that increase regression speed. (Overcharge and Call Of Brine, just make it so they can't stack, and the maximum regression speed possible is 200%)
Stacking multiples of the same type would be as inefficient as Exhaustion perks.
You could still stack one of each if you wanted, but with each one working differently, they each have their own workarounds, and don't all synergise anyway, like you can't kick a gen that's blocked by DMS, etc.
You can't be hit by Pop, Eruption and Pain Res plus Jolt all at once and bring a 99% gen to like 40% in the space of a few seconds. You can't be demoralised by a -60% repair speed debuff that makes gens take 3 minutes to repair, etc.
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Nope, the trial is over way too fast against efficient survivors if they aren't goofing around urban evading in the corner or opening chests or cleansing random dulls
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Eruption is a big problem in solo queue as you never know when your teammate is about to go down, pair that with Pain rez and you’ve got a double gen explosion with no way to stop it as you’re incapacitated for 25 seconds
I just think stacking all these perks on already strong killers like Blight, Nurse, Artist ect is a bit overkill
Maybe it’s not so bad for SWF I dunno, I just know it’s painful to face in solo queue where you have zero communication
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4 bnp + hyperfocus
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To be fair it's also painful to play against SWF, but nothing's going to be done about that 🤷♀️
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Yes it is too much because all you do is secure a 3 gen and kick gens for 30 minutes. I like chase perks more even if i lose the game because im having fun
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It's complete overkill on a good killer, but less skilled players find it necessary.
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I can see why they could be a problem but I don’t think there should be a limit on slowdown.
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I do not like it because it adds very little to the chase with a Killer.
I do understand why some players are using it however I think it is boring to use and I do not use it myself. The problem with stacking regression is that it is too much of the same type of perk.
Also most regression perks punish solo-q player. Eruption and PainRes/Deadmans are notorious to be less effective against people on comps. Just let go of the generator at the right moment and you only get a bit of regression, fail to do so and you eat incapacitation or a locked generator on top of it.
However stacking regression allows for the skill floor of Killers to get lower. You need less skill during chases, with your power and regarding mind-games when you can just stack them. This makes Killers more accessible.
The problem is that there is little reward to let go of this crutch. Most other perks can not keep up with the simple solution of using just another regression perk. Think about it: You run Eruption, Pain Res, Deadmans and No way out. What perk is supposed to give you that much value, even if you are good enough to only use Eruption?
As such yes, I dislike stacked regression. I have always disliked it starting with Ruin/Pop as a combination. I think there should be an incentive to leave it at one or two regression perks.
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what are the chances of this to happen?
Can't count SWF
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If they make regression capped then Survivors Gen speeds should be capped as well... Cause it wouldn't make sense to cap regression but not progression
But alas people won't see it that way...
Maybe they can do that until they get around to fixing Maps
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Instead of asking if 4 slow down perks is too much, we should be asking why they run them.
The answer is an unbalanced game.
With how overtuned gen speed is you essentially need multiple gen slow down perks to make the game last as long as it should be lasting at base without any perks.
Is 4 gen slow down perks too much on a few of the top tier killers? Sure, I could see that. Is it too much on the other 90% of the killer roster? Absolutely not.
Also DBD is all about time efficiency. IE you bring the perks that save you the most time. Currently that happens to be mostly gen slow down because most of the information or chase perks that exist quite frankly aren't good enough to save you as much time in chase or search as you would save just throwing another slow down on. Meaning we should be buffing most the chase/information perks to be on par.
And even better yet slow the games down enough to make them less necessary. On most killers you feel forced into slow down perks rather than getting to have fun and choose a unique build that fits your play style.
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Yeah, 4 Slowdowns is too much. Sadly every non-skilled Killerplayer can get 4Ks this way by just prolonging the game so much that no Ressources are left, which means that they dont have to deal with anything at some point.
You also dont even need 4 Slowdowns, you probably dont even need 1 if you are somewhat good at the game and be fine with not 4King every match (but still most of them).
Sadly, stacking Slowdown is the easiest way to play the game, so we will see it a lot.
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To be fair, there is faaar less chance of you encountering 4players with 4 Brand new parts and 4 Hyperfocus+stake out than to find one killer with Eruption/Brine/Overcharge.
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Hyperfocus? That one Perk that was called busted and nobody uses it anymore?
And even if, 4 BNPs are less progression than the Regression achieved with 4 Slowdowns.
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The game is long overdue for caps to effect stacking. There is literally zero reason not to have some limit to modifiers in the game.
Gen speed and regression both should have caps to limit how fast or slow they go.
Healing speeds should also be capped, and basically every item in the game should have at least double or triple the charges, but provide no more than 10% bonus to speed. None of this '100% base increase' crap that's impossible to balance. A survivor shouldn't ever be able to self heal in 6 seconds, I don't care what perks or med kit they have.
Not having a cap at all, or even diminishing returns, leads to what we have now: killers run quad slowdown and the only counter is to run toolboxes and gen speed perks. And killers run quad slowdown because they feel they have to. It's an arms race, where if one side doesn't bring 100%, gens either fly, or are impossible to complete, depending on who 'went easy' that game.
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I think one of the reasons this game is so hard to balance is the fact that there is no limit to how fast or slow an action can be. For example, the healing speeds are insane with a medkit and CoH.
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It's still used pretty commonly. Even seen people use these combos as SWF claim it as the "new toxic".
Disagree with your second point tho, it only depends on killer performance. Perks don't win the game.
Overall I agree with OP, having some rules like in comp, but knowing BHVR, that will never happen. It would be too far in the "E-sport ready" mindset, which they tend to avoid.
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Don't be shy, put some more.
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Yep, there is not much diversity for effective killer builds. Won't mention outdated killer kits.
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Well that's more of preparing for the worst... Since Killer have to react to what the Survivors do
So if the Killer doesn't need to change anything that's better for them
Also... the Killer's powers are holding the game back
Remember Forever Freddie, 5 Blink Nurse, Quickscoping Deathslinger... ETC
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Most slowdown perks are fine on their own. But I really do hope BHVR finds ways to nerf synergies between at least some of the slowdown perks. Call of Brine is perfectly balanced in my opinion, but when coupled with Overcharge and Eruption, it's too much for example.
There needs to be some diminishing returns with stacking slowdown effects, like regression. Overcharge and Call of Brine for example shouldn't stack to up to 300% regression.
Eruption is an exception here though. That perk just straight up needs to be nerfed individually.
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Every killer should run that build, it's probably the one with the highest killrate.
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Yes I think 4 is too much, it makes for a very tedious match on the survivor side and killers can often win because of stacked slowdown rather than actual skill. It becomes a war of attrition and I have found myself just going next in matches like this, particularly when Eruption is one of the perks.
The worst is probably Legion with Eruption etc and Thana, or already strong killers like Nurse, Blight or Wesker with full slowdown builds. Legion is just tedious and the rest mean its pretty much gg as they have good mobility and pressure without oppressive slowdown.
Maybe if there was a system such as with exhaustion where it makes zero sense to stack perks like Sprint Burst or DH etc. Full slowdown builds should be a thing of the past but even if they deal with Eruption alone I personally will be very happy
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The reason most people use 4 slowdown perks is because it makes their games easier. Not because they are absolutely necessary.
I get that they are necessary on some maps, too many, if you go against a really good survivor team. But that's a problem of map design in my opinion, not gen times. Right now, stacking 4 strong gen slowdown perks is just too much.
A bit of an exaggeration. Non skilled killer players certainly won't win just because of slowdown perks if the survivors they are going against are good. Slowdown perks are definitely too much when stacked together at the moment, but it's also not that crazy. And generally you do want at least 1 slowdown perk if you are going against an actual good survivor team, no matter how good you are at killer.
Another problem is that on some maps, multiple slowdown perks can become kind of necessary. There are still a fair amount of maps that are beyond unbalanced, and the new map is just a new addition to that list.
I think somewhere between your post and Blueberries post lies the truth. But I do find these extreme, opposing opinions of each side amusing.
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This is very true. I think this game could really benefit from caps to action speed buffs and debuffs. That and/or some new logic on how values like action speed buffs/debuffs or regression effects stack. So that they don't stack with their full values anymore. For example Overcharge and Call of Brine only stacking up to 250% regression instead of 300%.
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Unless the survivors are bad, just make a ton of mistakes or you're playing a top tier killer they are necessary though in most circumstances. Unless you plan to hard tunnel anyway.
"I get that they are necessary on some maps, too many, if you go against a really good survivor team. But that's a problem of map design in my opinion, not gen times. Right now, stacking 4 strong gen slowdown perks is just too much."
We can say this until the cows come home and have been for literally years but the fact of the matter is even though the main issue is map design they aren't doing anything about it, so here we are, left doing the next best thing.
Stacking 4 slow down perks is not too much unless you're on one of the few top tier killers. I'd even go as far as to say on most of the killer roster with 4 slow down perks the game is still very survivor sided.
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I can't fully agree. Though I am not sure which killers you consider top tier. If it's S, and at the very least also A tier killers, then maybe. The game does also have a fair amount of balanced maps, at least in general. Of course even with these maps, RNG can screw you over as killer, but it can also screw over survivors sometimes as well, with too many deadzones.
But there are just too many maps that are still survivor sided, for sure. Having stacked slowdown perks being op isn't the ideal solution to this problem though. Of course, one can argue it's a necessary evil with how bad some maps still are. But on the other hand, they just make matches on balanced maps a little problematic as well.
But yeah, if there is one thing I definitely do not agree with, it's that the game is survivor sided for most killers even with 4 slowdown perks. Definitely not in my opinion. If you are able to apply good map pressure, and are just good with the killer, even against good survivor teams, you definitely have a chance to win. Except on maps like Eyrie of Crows.
And I do believe that's even the case for top mmr. But a game like DBD can't be solely balanced around top mmr anyways. And the lower you go, the worse it gets. I do hope we will soon see proper information buffs to solo survivors, so at least that balance gap gets shortened.
Also, tunneling is sadly something one has to always also consider when talking about the game's balance. Killers can't just be buffed and then everyone hopes killers just don't tunnel anymore. Tunneling and camping need to be nerfed further as well, no doubt.
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I just don't think were going to agree in terms of the games balance then, that's okay.
I'd give like 80% of maps as survivor sided to varying degrees, 5% as killer sided and 15% as balanced. That's how bad I'd say maps are.
"And I do believe that's even the case for top mmr. But a game like DBD can't be solely balanced around top mmr anyways. And the lower you go, the worse it gets. I do hope we will soon see proper information buffs to solo survivors, so at least that balance gap gets shortened."
If you balance top down with an MMR system then that actually doesn't hurt lower people because MMR will adjust them until they're winning/losing the exact same amount of games as they were before. I also disagree with the popular notion of solo survivors needing buffs. I play solo like 99% of the time and when we lose it's because I or my team played bad, not because of bad balance for solos. 4 good random solos is still very, very much the power role in this game.
"Also, tunneling is sadly something one has to always also consider when talking about the game's balance. Killers can't just be buffed and then everyone hopes killers just don't tunnel anymore. Tunneling and camping need to be nerfed further as well, no doubt."
Well of course, if they made the proper buffs to killer then we could remove tunneling/camping entirely. Currently a necessary evil unfortunately though.
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Wrong post.
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It is too much, but so is the exact opposite.
A decent killer with 4 slowdowns is going to feel extremely oppressive against a group of survivors that aren’t bringing a bunch of strong meta perks and/or good toolboxes to speed up the gens.
But a killer who doesn’t run a ton of slowdown is going to be miserable when they see a team with multiple toolboxes, BNPs, hyperfocus/stakeout combo, prove thyself, etc.
Each side bringing strong stuff like that encourages the other side to do the same and it’s way out of control. Which leads me to my conclusion that the strongest perks, items, addons, etc. on both sides of the game are still overtuned. 4 slowdowns is absolutely ridiculous, but cutting 30 seconds off a gen is too.
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Amongst other things, because a single regression perk tends to only knock off 15s of progress at most (obviously some can get multiple gens in the right situation) and the regression can be stopped instantaneously, which is barely any longer than the cooldown on most powers. Seems like it's self-explanatory why more and more would be stacked when a single one just about covers the time to get into a chase and three gens can go before you can even proc the first one (as Ruin is pretty unique in not needing either a down and/or the player to find time to kick it).
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3 or 4 slowdown perks means they've not got chase perks, they've not got aura-reading perks. If you can work out what perks they have then try and capitalise on their weaknesses on what they're not bringing.
Eruption is an issue in general though I'll agree with that.
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Nerfing killers is never an unpopular opinion.
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Having free choice in perks helps and hurts the game
The Killer can bring 4 Slowdown (Gen Blocking, Regression, Speed reducing)
Sorry for the long post... but TL;DR it's up to the players to chose what perks to bring and BHVR made some mistakes on the changes to the perks... and this is all my opinion so you can disagree but at least tell me why (in a kind and polite manor)
And the Survivors can bring 4 Speed up (Things)... Toolboxes, Prove Thyself, Hyperfocus, Stakeout, BNP, Toolbox charge addons, Toolbox Speed addons... Sorry but I can't seem to generalize those... My mind is spinning right now
So with the regression perks... Ruin, Call Of Brine, Overcharge and Eruption... Ruin is on the lowest end (base regression but it's automatic and until the Totem is cleansed or the first Survivor dies something needs to change either allow Ruin to be 200% regression but deactivate apon a Survivors death or keep it at 100% but remove the deactivation effect)... Call Of Brine has too much going for it as of right now, Increasing regression, Knowledge, and the fact that the Gens aura changes to yellow (some of that can be put on Surveillance IMO)... Overcharge starts small but grows over time and that (word I can't type) skillcheck, safe to say that Overcharge is also too much at this point either remove the skillcheck or change the regression... Eruption again does too much at this point, Gen aura changes to yellow, base regression at first, the 10% when a Survivor goes down, and the Incapacitated status effect lasting for 25 seconds
So the last second switching to whatever the Survivors bring needs to be a thought in the back of the Killers mind... and the thought of who the Killer is and what perks they are using are in the back of the Survivors mind
Again I apologize for the long post
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On a double recharge Nurse? Lol yeah.
On Trapper?
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Funny how those 4 perks you mentioned are pretty much meta, like you could use deadlock for your gen block, but no one ever thinks of that do they?
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"Tell me the amount of times this happens"
"You're also not allowed to count the only group that does it"
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Case in point.
It happens very rarely
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I literally just had a game against a Knight on RPD, who ran Eruption, Overcharge, Call of Brine and Pain Res. (two immediate regression perks, and two regression speed perks)
We whizzed through the first four gens, and got the best case scenario 3 gen, the absolute furthest gens possible.
However at this point, the Knight simply patrolled these furthest gens, kicking them when he got there, and chasing and downing a survivor in between.
Between the missed Overcharge skill checks and the Eruption triggers, it was literally impossible to repair the gens, and there were FOUR of us at this point. With a bit of slugging, in order to proc Eruption with repeated downs, only hooking every 3rd or so down, the game managed to go on for about a further 10 minutes as he gradually depleted our hook states and started eliminating survivors. We must have repaired about 5 additional gens worth during this time, but at no point did we get either of these furthest gens to more than 50%. (there was no point trying the third gen because it was fairly close to one of the others)
He didn't even use his power once, this was an M1 killer, with the worst possible 3-gen for a killer. The only way we could have potentially countered it is with voice comms, but this was solo survivors.
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You serious? It's not enough!
Killers regularly lose, not from playing bad, but from actually beating survivors in chase nonstop. And they have 4 gen defence perks. So I don't know what to tell you, because the best blockage/regression you can put out right now as killer isn't even enough. It can be overcome.
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I notice that regression and slowdown perks only work when the killer's chasing, injuring, downing, hooking, and doing side objectives. So what do you want the killers to do when they're nerfed? Go for mindless chases, or wait at hooks? I thought that's what we didn't want?
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Your wording implies you think I don't play killer.
Some of my favourite (and most effective) killer builds, on low-tier killers like Ghostface, don't use any slowdown perks.
The odd 1 or 2 slowdown perks are great, but stacking four regression perks that combo incredibly well and can be used effortlessly while you also progress your main objectives, is quite simply too effective. See my last post for an example.
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That's who they balance for. These discussions are never in the context of high level play, except out of convenience. It's always, "What about solo? What about Nurse/Blight? What about deadzones? What about bad teammates?" They don't care about killers struggling even when playing extremely well.
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So PC players suddenly can't hit great skill checks?
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It doesn't sound like you do. "I use little or no gen defence and never struggle. When I do use gen defence, it's effortless." You might play killer, but not against good survivors. You SHOULD feel like you're under constant pressure from them, not the other way around. What's to stop them from completing 3 gens after the first down? I've dabbled in no gen defence builds as well lately, and have found just one that is still a toss-up at best, sometimes it's fine and sometimes it's a 0k. You need to be experiencing 1ks and 0ks sometimes, or else your survivors just aren't trying.
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What do you mean bro? How are gonna unskilled killers hold their 3 gen and refuse to chase even 5 seconds away from it,, 😂😂
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I recently started running a meme build on Ghostface (my highest prestige next to Dredge) because I was getting bored of my Jolt / Thrilling Tremors / I'm All Ears / Lethal Pursuer build, which did me pretty well and often puts me against 'good survivors'.
I think some call it GoCart Ghostface: Agitation, Play with Your Food, NOED and a wildcard, in my case Mad Grit, plus the add ons that increase movement speed while crouched and reduce my terror radius when crouched. If you're understanding it correctly, it's about moving as fast as possible, particularly while crouched, it's quite fun.
I never expected it to work all that well, because as you say, good survivors crank out gens and easily out loop an M1 killer. But the thing is, 'good survivors' also play very altruistically and make bold rescue plays. The amount of pay off I got from Agitation and Mad grit alone is insane. As 'good survivors' see 'weak prey' in the form of a revealed Ghostface and fearlessly run right up to me to bodyblock, only to go down by the hook.
Instead of getting genrushed, I frequently get several hooks before the first gen is done, which puts me in a decent position to utilise NOED when the exit gates are powered and they all run right up to me to reveal me and steal my power. I never even expected to get any use out of NOED, as I never run it usually, I only picked it for the movement speed buff. But when your dinner presents itself to you it's not polite to turn it away.
Honestly I'm not sure why you thought to pull the "you're not as skilled as you think you are" card when MMR is as unreliable as it is right now. You can't really gauge your skill by the survivors you face when you can go from potatoes one game to P100 Neon Nea's the next. But the fact that you argument is that "you can't succeed as killer without slowdowns", yet I do... would seem to put a dent in your argument.
Don't get me wrong, I get my fair share of frustrating games against survivors who simply play everything correctly and teabag me at the exit gates. My point is, in my experience, it's not reliant on the use of or absence of slowdown perks. It's usually my mistakes that lead to it, committing to chases I shouldn't, whiffing hits at the worst times, etc.
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