For people that want Nurse nerfed
I’m curious how people want her nerfed. I do agree she’s powerful, but I also think she’s totally fine base kit, so I believe her add ons need to be nerfed. However, most people seem to think that Nurse needs to be nerfed in a multitude of ways, whether that be her base kit, her add ons, her power needing a complete rework, etc. and I’m curious what people think could be done to make her more fun and balanced.
Comments
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I like Otz idea where she can only get her power to blink for a certain amount of time after making survivors injured for a certain amount of time. That of course would mean that her base movement speed will probably be normal like trapper and then when she has her power she is her normal slow speed. Think of Oni when it comes to the idea. of course her addons need to be looked at for this change also.
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Honestly just making her blink attacks count as special hits would go a long way without harming her playstyle for most players.
I'm a firm believer that in most levels Nurse is really fine and that so is her basekit. It's only really good Nurses with really good builds that are a bit OP.
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Nurse is not a problem, she is not popular and her winrates are not problematic even at high MMR. She may not be fun to face or have many counters, but survivors still manage to escape. But tbh, I am glad you guys are obsessed with her, because I play way more oppressive killers now (hello Sadako condemned only) and don't get attacked in the end game chat as much as before when she was my main.
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- Chain blinks become special attacks. I think it’s ok for the first blink to remain basic though. Weakens Exposed (and Starstruck in particular) but doesn’t completely eliminate perk variety. They shouldn’t nerf Starstruck just to address Nurse; Exposed as a whole is too good on her and Starstruck isn’t overpowered on any other killer.
- Change almost all of her addons. Her best addons are too strong but almost everything else is just bad. Her addons shouldn’t be strong, but she doesn’t need like 3 different addons that are debuffs. Recharge is too strong, range and 3-blink shouldn’t exist at all. I would be okay with even reducing the base recharge slightly (0.15-0.2 seconds per blink) provided that yellow recharge is removed and green recharge is nerfed, because admittedly it does feel quite slow without recharge addons, but you shouldn’t be able to recharge 2 blinks in 4 seconds. It doesn’t punish mistakes enough.
- This might be an unpopular opinion, but I don’t think she should be able to see auras of survivors while blinking. The two most important counters to Nurse are breaking LOS and keeping distance from her as much as possible. Aura reading perks heavily reduce LOS counterplay and the survivor typically can’t predict that until it’s too late, unless they have something that gives it away (eg. Object or Distortion). It’s okay before she uses her power, but it should stop when she’s ready to go for a blink.
- Stuns reset blink charges (and they don’t start recharging until the stun ends). Pallet stuns are rare against Nurse and aren’t rewarding enough, and it would make DS give the survivor more of a fighting chance against her. Right now DS is pretty useless against a good Nurse.
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She doesn't need to be changed at all until SWF is nerfed, maps are nerfed, and CoH is nerfed
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Map design and CoH are problems regardless of Nurse. One broken thing doesn’t excuse something else being broken on the other side
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Nurse is fine for the most part it's her recharge and range add ONS that make it an issue, if I was gonna nerf anything I would completely remove those add ONS and make the second blink take a little longer to use and increase her base movement speed by 8 percent so she's not totally blink reliant and if you outplay the first blink you've got time to try and outplay the second one or make distance, I don't think she's broken but I understand why people would think that way when they run into a good nurse that is just hitting the blinks perfect, and I guess even though I have thousands of hours , not everyone else does and some that do may still struggle anyways
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- This is the incorrect way to fix this problem. The ONLY perk on her that is a problem is starstruck. Is Jolt? Sloppy? No. The correct fix to this, is to give her a tiny terror radius, but then give her a 40 meter lullaby.
- They already nerfed range addons and this is actually incorrect. At this point most of her addons are bad, or they make her less punishing or are flat out memes, the addons are not a problem.
- This just makes her harder to play, but doesn't actually "nerf her" top tier nurses will still use the information to gauge where the survivor is and blink right on top of them.
- Sure, why not.
As a nurse main, the proper way to "fix" her is to:
- Increase her movement speed to 4.2
- Halve the range of her blinks and make them charge up faster (so you get the same time/distance ratio as now, just the max range is half what it is now)
- Give her a secondary ability that lets her charge a blink on a 60 second cooldown. This blink targets like the cenobite chain and is global (can blink anywhere on the map)
- Give her a tiny terror radius of 8 meters, and give her a 40 meter lullaby.
This allows her to keep her chasing power strong, while weakening her map control but putting it on a cooldown. The way to make nurse more interesting is to make her blinks less powerful, but more frequent, so there is more opportunity for both the survivor and the killer to outplay each other.
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Nurse had the single highest pickrate in the stats of October in high brackets, not counting Wesker. "She is not popular" is very much false.
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Nurse base kit is balanced imo, blink recharge addons and blink range addons need to be nerfed/ re worked and nurse will be in a good spot. The skill ceiling for nurse is high making her not an easy killer to play against good survivors.
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Yeah but flat out they shouldn't change her at all unless it's done at the same time other broken ######### is changed. A skilled Nurse and Blight are the only things on equal footing to tryhard SWFs that break the game
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I agree with most of what @sizzlingmario4 said.
Mostly I just wish they'd make her 2nd and 3rd blinks special and leave the rest of her kit alone and see how she shakes out before making further changes. Whenever BHVR makes changes they are always grossly overtuned.
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At least tryhards 4man SWF are much rare to find than double recharge/range recharge nurses.
But again, why cant we agree that SWF and Nurse both need to be addresed?
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If you are talking about this : https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/350586/stats-kill-rate-by-killer-and-mmr-september-2022#latest
Top MMR
- Nurse : 6,12% pickrate - 61,22% killrate
- The Mastermind : 25% pickrate - 65,82% killrate
"No counting Wesker", yep I wonder why. She is not a problem. For reference, her killrate is close to Dredge, Cenobite, Spirit, Oni, Wraith. Yes, I said Wraith. She is not a problem.
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She's been an issue for longer than I've been playing DBD.
When you start to have to change perks because of a single character, it may be time to look at that character.
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But nurse could still get value out of other perks that give exposed. I don't think it fixes the problem. If your worried perks like jolt and sloppy won't be effective ok her then why not just buff those perks to work on special attacks too? Wouldn't most other killers get benefits from it ?
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But other perks that give exposed aren't a problem. NOED is not a problem on her (or in general) more than it is any other killer. Devour hope is not a problem on her any more than any other killer. Dragon's grip is OP on her? What about haunted ground?
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In his most recent video I think he changed his opinion to nerf addons and make exposed not work on her...
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I think even the recharge addons are fine... When we look at the mobility they grant it is really not as much as you would think... Currently when one blinking she moves at 4.2325 m/s and with both recharge addons she moves at 4.287 m/s ... It is really not that much to be honest xD So because of that I think recharge is fine...
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The stats were taken shortly after Wesker's release, so it is very likely that his pick rate was inflated, especially if you look at older Data where the highest pickrate was about 8%.
If Nurse is OP or not is a different question, but I don't understand how you can deny her popularity when she has the second highest pickrate in high MMR and the fifth highest for all MMR.
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The issue isn't how powerful it's that she simply doesn't play dbd and that the devs are forced to balance perks around only her.
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Lol at pitching a Nurse nerf as a positive to killer by saying if she was nerfed killers could get "stronger perks." you'd just cry about how those are boring and unfun just like Ruin/ Undying, Eruption, etc
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So short-sighted.
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If they just made it so exposed would not work on her then the Wesker perk (? or what it was that gives you aura reading on close by survivors?) would not be that much of an issue since the whole starstruck build would not be working on her anymore... But they took the easier way... Therefore I would not say they are necessarily forced to nerf perks for her... They could have also changed the exposed for her blinks...
I would not go as far as to say she does not play dbd... When we compare her to (MDR) spirit, where probably nobody would say that she does not play dbd, then you will notice that only 2-3 tiles provide safety against spirit on a normal map... So she does not get bothered by the other 80 % or so... When Spirit breaks those 2-3 god pallets than the map has nothing to hold her anymore... Whereas against nurse the structures stay the same no matter how long the game goes... Nurses chase does not get better over time like other killers after they broke pallets or so...
I actually like that she offers a different kind of counterplay than other killers... Still better than facing the 10th short- medium range anti loop killer that looks different but works basically the same...
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A good start would be to make her blinks attack count as special attacks. Let her attack only from second blink, just like Blight's rush attacks.
Recharge to her power should be slightly slower. Somewhat what Wesker has.
Maybe give her Blindness while she charges her power so aura reading perks can finally be buffed without fear of being op on her.
At last rework some add-ons and she is good to go.
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Matchbox basekit.
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You cannot really mess with her blink cooldowns without making it way harder to catch up to survivors... I already did the math for it and at 10 seconds she literally cannot catch up to survivors just holding w... You really overestimate her mobility without any addons....
Great you have now removed line of sight breaking as counterplay... Walking now is basically the same speed as one blinking so she will just follow until she can safely one blink you or until she needs to use it because you vaulted a window or pallet... Not a good idea at all.
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That's why i said somewhat what Wesker has and not exactly as Wesker. Maybe only give her 10% slower recharge on her second blink.
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Right, because a killer who moves 5% faster than you is gonna be so good at catching up.
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That is exactly what Nurse is with her blink you do realise that right? She moves at slightly above 4.2 m/s basekit when she uses one blink..
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So 3.3 instead of 3 seconds?
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2 seconds of holding the blink while going 2.89m/s ; 1.5 seconds of travelling 13.33 m/s ; 1.5 seconds of chain blink window 1.54m/s 2 seconds of fatigue 0.96m/s and then 1 second of normal movementspeed so 3.85m/s (to recharge her blink)... The whole process takes 8 seconds and you travel a distance of 33.86 meters... Which makes it 4.2325 m/s on average
So that's the math for it... Basekit Nurse really does not have that good mobility...
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And for every second you don't use your blink you loose another 15 cm... So just following is the far safer option with your change...
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I agree with all your ideas. I would just like to add some of my own input.
Basekit : I agree with everything. Additionally - or alternatively - her blinks should not recharge until her post-blink fatigue ends. Along with this, recharge could be slightly buffed if needed.
Add-ons : Purple range should be completely removed. Both range add-ons should be made green and purple. A new yellow add-on that increases blink range by 10% (2 meters). It could be used in combination with green range to obtain the same effect as purple range.
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LMAO so your "nerf" as Nurse main is to buff the ######### out of her - I dying 😂
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I don't think you understand how slow 4.2 still is and HALVING the range of her blinks makes them much much weaker. Her first blink is 20 meters currently, and the second is 12. A Killer's LUNGE range is only 6 meters. So this would basically require you to be much more accurate with your blinks. The 4.2 is because she should not be slower than a survivor, maybe 4.0 is better so she still has to blink to get you.
Now, because she is so slow, her map control will become garbage, so give her a special blink on a cooldown. I forgot to also mention that this global blink should have a fatigue that is twice as long, and she can't attack out of it, making it exclusively used for mobility.
Lastly, the goal is not to nerf her, the goal is to rework her. There is a difference there. Survivors like this still exist:
And nurse is the only killer who stands a chance at competing against that, so until THAT is fixed, she should not be "nerfed" The idea here though, is this rework allows for easier numbers tweaks without completely destroying her, or making her overpowered.
Talk to me after you have logged 2k hours on and against nurse, and think the entire thing through.
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I mean it is basically as slow as she currently is when only one blinking... 4.2325 m/s to be exact... And since line of sight cannot get broken anymore you can just follow until you are in blink range... Which is boring as hell... And since your blink is only 10 m long you will basically guarantee a hit at this distance... The only good thing about it is the lullaby/TR but then again every other exposed perk would still work...
It just turns her into a boring medium/low range anti loop killer like the other 10...
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Explain to me how dragon's grip is a problem on her.
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"And nurse is the only killer who stands a chance at competing against that, so until THAT is fixed, she should not be "nerfed" The idea here though, is this rework allows for easier numbers tweaks without completely destroying her, or making her overpowered."
Or Spirit, Blight, Artist, Plague, Pyramid Head and maybe even Wesker... It is a bit overdramatic dude...
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Artist cannot, plague cannot, pyramid head cannot, wesker cannot, blight probably cannot, spirit can with god tier addons only.
Try playing at that level before assuming.
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I didn't assume... But as I showed you before there are showcase videos where comp players play this against each other...
I don't assume anything here... You're the one assuming stuff here... Spirit only needs yellow addons to become really oppressive, she is weaker without addons, but still a beast... You don't provide anything to base your opinion that those killers would not be viable in a comp setting... And if you want to bring this down to comp players not playing by comp rules but in normal matchmaking, then we are back to the point where the killer can also bring every addon they desire... Also I would like to say that most players at that level don't really go for normal matchmaking, I once heard Hens saying, that they did the streak only once a weak because it is just boring to do at some point, because most matches just end in like 5 minutes... And basically all they did was doing gens, and maybe looping the killer for a short amount of time until he gave up because he would not get at hit most of the time...
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We can also have a look at the comp tierlist provided by Knightlight (Player for team eternal, currently the strongest comp team in DBD):
You can get to this by going to https://www.twitch.tv/knightlight and typing !tierlist in the chat... I guess we can assume that S and A tier killers can compete in a comp setting, and are therefore viable in "High MMR"... Also notice that Blight is above spirit even though you assumed it the other way around...
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Okay, what’s your point?
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What I stated below, that basekit nurses mobility really is not that good... And when you change her base movement speed to 4.2 m/s she does not get much out of it to use her blink while following survivors, unless you need to go through walls or up and down floors maybe... The chance that you might miss a blink will make it worse to use it instead of following normally, because by following normally you only go 0.0325 m/s slower... that is a little more than 3 cm... It is just not worth it to blink unless you do it to get the hit... That's my point, I thought it was fairly obvious...
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Let's do some math here:
Some data:
Survivor movement speed: 4.0 m/s
Survivor post hit movement speed duration: 1.8 seconds
Survivor post hit movement speed: 6.0 m/s
Killer movement speed: 4.6 m/s
Killer movement speed while carrying survivor: 3.68 m/s
Killer Terror Radius: 32 meters
Killer hit cooldown: 2.7 seconds
Killer pick up speed: 3 seconds
Killer hook speed: 1.5 seconds
Generator repair speeds: 90 seconds
Average distance to hook: 12 meters
Average human response time: 273 ms (https://humanbenchmark.com/tests/reactiontime)
Average map size: 9850 square meters (~99.25x99.25 meters for a square)
So, let's assume killers and survivors all spawn at opposite ends of the map. The survivors spend the first 20 seconds looking for a generator and the killer spends the first 20 seconds running to the opposite end of the map. With a killer having a 32 meter terror radius, and taking into account movement speeds and human reaction time. if we take the human reaction time and 6x it to account for figuring out the direction the killer is coming from and making sure you can run the opposite direction, the survivor will spot the killer in 1638 ms. To make math simpler let's round it up to 2 second. during this time the killer gets 4.6 meters closer. So now the killer is 22.8 meters away. During this time the survivor runs in the exact opposite direction of the killer.
Remember, no powers, no pallets, no windows, just a straight line. In order for the killer to catch up to the 5 meters (lunge is 6 meters but taking into account human reactions and lag and spinning and such, we say 5) required for lunge distance the killer needs to move 17.8 meters to close the gap. The difference in movement speed between them is .6, this means the killer closes the 17.8 meter gap in 29.66 seconds. The killer then lands a hit.
The survivor then runs in a straight line and the killer is unable to move much for 2.7 seconds. During 1.8 of those seconds the survivor is moving at 6 m/s and for 4 m/s for .9 seconds. This means the survivor gets 14.4 meters way. The killer now has to close a gap of 9 meters for a lunge. It takes the killer 15 seconds to catch up to the survivor and land another hit.
The killer now picks the survivor up taking 5.7 seconds (3 seconds for picking up, and 2.7 seconds for attack cooldown), and they walk to the nearest hook about 12 meters away. This takes 3.25 seconds, the hooking action takes 1.5 seconds.
The time to find this survivor, hit them once, catch up, hit them again, pick them up walk to a hook and hook them took: 29.66 + 15 + 5.7 + 3.25 + 1.5 = 55.11 seconds. This would mean the killer would likely lose 2 gens in the first chase. (just barely reaching the 3rd survivor before it finishes).
Notes:
I know people will say "but powers exist", yes, yes they do, but i eliminated as many variables as possible, we are just talking about running in straight lines right now. I know people will say, "but don't focus that survivor down, change targets and go back to patrolling gens". This is also true, but if the killer does this, the survivor being chased will start to heal (medkit/healing meta) and only takes 16 seconds to do so, while it takes the killer 29 seconds to land the first hit. This means that that survivor can be back on a gen by the time the killer lands their next hit.
This means a healthy survivor takes 55.11 seconds of a killer's time away at minimum if they just "hold w" during this time. And you want us to do this 12 times? Lets just do this 8 times. Gens take a total of 90 * 5 seconds or 450 total seconds of time, if you factor in running to them, lets say 550 seconds. So for 8 hooks:
1st hook = 55.1 * 3 survivors on gens = 165.33
2nd hook = 55.1 * 1 survivor on gens (1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor saving and healing, 1 survivor being chased)
3rd hook = 55.1 * 1 survivor on gens (1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor saving and healing, 1 survivor being chased)
4th hook = 55.1 * 1 survivor on gens (1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor saving and healing, 1 survivor being chased)
5th hook = 55.1 * 1 survivor on gens (1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor saving and healing, 1 survivor being chased)
6th hook = 55.1 * 1 survivor on gens (1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor saving and healing, 1 survivor being chased)
7th hook = 55.1 * 1 survivor on gens (1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor saving and healing, 1 survivor being chased)
8th hook = 55.1 * 1 survivor on gens (1 survivor hooked, 1 survivor saving and healing, 1 survivor being chased)
This is 551 seconds, which we said 550 seconds to complete all gens, after this the killer has killed a single person. This is why the balance of the game is so ridiculous. Because top tier survivors can make that 55.1 seconds lasts a lifetime when they all actually work on the gens.
This is why killers camp and tunnel, because it's the only way to slow the game down in a meaningful way. If you aren't playing nurse, you can't compete with this.
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That's exactly why large maps where you can see the killer coming anytime are a huge problem... The prerunning is just ridiculous... Just out of curiosity... During the weapon whipe animation... The killer still moves a little... Did you find numbers on how fast he is during that? I think it is neglectable for that example... But I'm just curious ^^
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Last time i ran this math i couldn't find it, but from experience i know it can't be much more than a 1 m/s. At most this would account for an extra 2-3 seconds saved.
EDIT: found it, its 0.46 m/s so they would be able to move 1.215 meters during this time. Saving 2 seconds of time off that total.
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in any case, my point is that this is the problem with the game. If survivors do the bare minimum, that shows literally 0 skill. They and the rest of their team "just does gens" then they will still be more efficient than the killer can be. This is ridiculous. The survivors should only be able to win if they can outplay the killer.
But this also isn't all on the survivors, like, look at how many killers there are that promote this playstyle, they just release the knight, whose power is "plop them down at a loop" and now you can't run that loop, and must hold shift + w to the next one. This is why killers like blight and wesker are so well designed because their power has counterplay in loops, but also opportunities to do some wild stuff like blight z-flick or the fact that wesker's power has built-in slowdown.
The problem is that most killers are not this. Like, how is trapper ever supposed to compete in this world, or clown. There are simply too many safe pallets that each buy 15 seconds extra on that 55.11 seconds. This is why the top tier strat is to just run to a safe pallet, immediately drop it, then run to the next one. If the killer isn't nurse they will lose. Even spirit will have a hard time against that. Blight still has to actually run tiles like normal killers in many cases as well.
And the fundamental problem is that the game has SWF kills squads, and solo queue, and matches them with the same killers. This needs to be addressed more than anything else before they do anything.
I am an advocate for making 2 queues, 1 solo queue only, and 1 SWF only, and those queues have actual different rules in place that change the game. Maybe in the solo queue one, there are more pallets, or the gens are a little faster. Maybe in the SWF one, the gens take longer, or there are less pallets, or the survivors just flat out run slower, or the killer runs faster, or they have to do 6 gens instead of 5. There are tons of things they could do for this. Then simply make the SWF queue give the killers 2x bloodpoints.
Or hell, make a WIN for a killer be "they got a single kill" then make camping and tunneling basically impossible. And balance the game around that idea.
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I don't know about the different queues to be honest... Might split matchmaking to bad und put survivor that just want to have fun in a more competitive setting than needed :/
Also to come back to spirit... there are really not many pallets she has to break, even with only yellow addons... Not even pallets at jungle gyms.... Shack yes, Crane yes, and so on... But she can play around most of the other ones...
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Anyway, i think i got pretty derailed, but generally i think nurse is "fine" until these fundamental problems get addressed. And i get tired of people saying nurse should be nerfed but SWF death squads are fine because "they are rare" You should want both things to be fixed and solo queue should be made better.
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