Killers that use the hook as the watering hole…
…have no basis for believing they’re good killers.
Good/Great killers are great at map pressure and chase. They know where to go, they keep chases short and they hook and move on until they’ve won. Those 4ks are deserved. When I lose to a trapper or demo or some middle to low tier killer with a decent team because they KNEW how to play, I’m impressed. These are Type A Killers.
But i estimate 50-75% of killers mostly proxy camp so the survivors come to them and they get cheap hits and can also tunnel if they want. They basically use a flaw in the game’s design to play a bastardized version of the game that gets them fairly easy 3-4ks. These are Type B Killers.
Both types get tons of 4ks. But if you take away the ability to camp and tunnel, Type A killers still destroy and 4k. Type B killers are lost
My point here in spelling this out is twofold.
1) I think Type B killers, because they get so much success, believe they are great at the game and so don’t bother trying to become Type A killers. I’m clarifying that they’re not. If they want to be great at the game they have to be able to win without falling back on camping and tunnelling for the majority of their play.
2) Type B killers are also a driving force of survivor quitting. People don’t want to play the bastardized “try to save your friends being guarded at the hook” version of the game. They want to play the game as it is intended to be played. So when they see the camping and tunnelling start they leave.
And just to be clear, I’m not responding to non constructive responses. If you disagree, clearly advance your point with logic.
Comments
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Problem is, the game. Survivors want to escape, bring the most potential to do gens. Killers want to kill to win, easiest way is to tunnel or camp.
They will never change the game. This is what it is. Humans have an uncanny ability to find the easiest path. You're seeing it for the most part.
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The killer uses a tactic and outplays the survivor.
Survivors: "That was unskilled"
Yet you still lost to the "unskilled" killer.
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"Humans have an uncanny ability to find the easiest path."
Work smarter, not harder. 😉
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If you ever watch competitive DBD, you'll see 100% of the killers camp to some extent. They are all very good killers. Some of the best in the world. It's the most efficient way to play killer. You absolutely can camp and be a "good" killer.
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This is one of my favorite DBD phenomena. The more lazy, boring or low skill the killer tactic is, the worse it makes you look for dying to it. And yet in post game, you see the killer getting lambasted for being "trash".
It's like losing to in Street Fighter to kid spamming one button but then ripping on them for being bad.
Or my absolute fave, survs saying GGEZ after getting 4K'd. Priceless. Just quietly leave, you're just making yourself look ridiculous.
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They win because they know people get upset from reading text. The mind game never stops.
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To be fair, if I die to a facecamping Bubba, that's not on me or my team. I am physically unable to stop him from facecamping me, no matter my skill. Likewise, he doesn't exactly need a lot of skill to sit in front of the hook and look pretty.
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I never directly see it because I have pg messaging disabled, but I see it on YT and Twitch a lot.
Sometimes it tilts the killer and leads to a long exchange, but just as often they just get laughed at, as they should be. It's just a sad look, and obviously feeble clapback for losing.
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So killers who correctly guess where survivors will be by chance are good, but killlers who correctly determine where survivors are guaranteed to be are bad?
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I've got a few of these this week. They bring a bad map offering, I use them as hatchet pin-cushions, half of them DC when they find themselves 3-slugged or countered in some way and then you get "baby killer", "ez", "l2p", "don't cry" in the lobby. I can't understand what goes through their head, beside room-temperature air.
That's kind of hilarious but I'm assuming they are all children, the not too bright kind.
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Any tactic can backfire when used in the wrong situation and the simplest plan can be genius when perfectly implemented.
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Bubba is the one possible exception, because there is so little counterplay to his chainsaw around a hook.
OTOH, the new generator/slowdown meta demands actually kicking gens to fuel slowdown (thus leaving the hook), so this might be the best time ever to beat facecamping Bubbas.
But regardless, camping with Bubba is still the lowest skill but still viable playstyle in the game.
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Camping and/or tunneling isn’t outplaying survivors.
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Wow, first killer lunges, now this? You have issues with killers in general, it would seem.
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It is by definition if they don't beat it. Outplaying doesn't necessarily have to mean outskilled, it means playing in a way that secures victory. It's up to the survivors to outskill the unskilled play, much like a killer needs to outskill gen rushing in order to outplay it.
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People underestimate the skill in decision making. Not every skilled play is being mechanically better than your opponent. Sometimes you just need to play smarter.
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So what type would it be when you hook, kick a gen, kick a pallet and then go back to the hook because the unhook happens before they really get a chance to leave the area completely?
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Nothing is wrong with either playstyle, camping and tunneling aren't flaws in the game design they were intended from the start with how powerful they are changing over time based on the game designers choices if they wanted to remove camping and tunneling since they were a "flaw" that would have happened long ago, but instead we have seen adjustments perks to mitigate it and punish it a bit but very clearly its never been removed and something has never been done to remove it completely only ever adjustments.
Also its a multiplayer game so what people find as unfun and boring are usually the simple and effective strategies to win or the strong things, they usually like the complain about it while stacking and doing multiple strong things themselves.
And the game is partially a hide and seek esc game so if I can't find anyone i'm going straight back to the hook because its a surefire way to find someone because I know they are there and someone will usually be forced to save them so if you blame the killers for going back to hook you better also be giving them something to do given the chance because that would be entitled to expect killers to play nice while giving them nothing to work with
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As my Irish grandma used to say, "If it's stupid but it works, it isn't stupid".
And it's cute you think Killers care about your opinion, can we move past the whole Killer-tactic shaming thing?
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Yea totally skilled.. Get max stacks with STBFL on Deathslinger, and camp the hook. If the unhooked survivor get's unhooked, you hit them with your weapon, get a small cooldown, and immediately use your gun to shoot them... Totally a way to play around. It's called abusing broken mechanics in the game, and BHVR do not give a #########, because killer mains have the same mentality as truetalent lmao
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So not only did the Deathslinger get 8 hits to build up STBFL, but they were also able to successfully use their power to land a follow up attack on you. You are literally describing a scenario that only exists if the killer is good.
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There just so much more context necessary to do analysis here. Mainly how you're defining camping and/or tunneling, and how the survs are contributing or not to it.
Like if a team goes for quick saves and doesn't give the killer an opportunity to leave and the killer hangs around, that's poor surv play, and not really camping.
A recent example I can think of was a game I played on Groaning Storehouse, where I had just hooked a surv in the basement (in the main building). I came up the stairs, reloaded (Huntress), and was going to leave when I saw another surv through the window. I wound up a hatchet, but heard another surv behind me, just outside the door. So three of the four were within 10-15 meters of me. The first surv kept waving me to chase, but why would I have?
I never left the immediate vicinity of the storehouse, because they didn't either. Three ended up dead, another DCed, and I got spammed with friend requests (I have friends only messaging set), and there was a lot of teabagging. They were clearly big mad.
In a situation like that you could say I proxy camped, but who played with lower skill there? One could say I didn't deserve the 4K (it was fairly easy), but I'd say they sure af didn't deserve an escape. They played that terribly.
This is just one example of countless similar situations I've seen as a killer, surv, or spectator where a surv team was up in arms over the tactics of the killer, when in large part they (the survs) dictated those tactics.
Now a case where you have a Bubba facecamping their first hook is something different for sure, and low skill, but if they rest of the team just yeets themselves into the meat grinder, how much better were they, really?
Tunneling tends to be more clear cut, but also not totally so.
Point is, it's most often not there is a lot of grey area when it comes to these things, and just expecting the killer to "move on" in every situation is really myopic.
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Humor me: and exactly which mechanic do you believe is broken?
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No for these are *in a epic movie announcer voice* THE DEAD BY DAYLIGHT FORUMS!
*pyrotechnics and explosions happen in the background*
These forums live to Survivor/Killer shame everyone for we are so insecure about our own selves!
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Yes, all you have to do is gather enough stacks (8) which is not the hardest thing in the world to do trust me. Then you just facecamp the hooked survivor, if someone comes for the rescue, you keep hitting them because the recovery time gives you so much windows to follow it up again on the same survivor unhooking, or if another survivor comes aswell for the unhook. Whenever i play killer, and start losing, i just facecamp the survivor, and get free downs and kills with STBFL, which is what i am talking about. I don't blame the killers for facecamping, but it sure as hell is highly unskilled. Stop pretending like it is skilled, when it clearly is not. And yes, i just admitted that i have done this aswell, but i never claimed that i was skilled for abusing this mechanic.
My point is, the killer can facecamp the survivor with STBFL, and deny unhooks from happening. Let's say two survivors come for the unhook. You hit one of them, (they run away) and the second survivor attempts to unhook, but they can't, because the recovery time from STBFL allows you to hit them aswell, without them getting the unhook.
Try getting max stacks with STBFL on Deathslinger, and facecamp the survivor. Go on, please do this experiment for yourself. As soon as you get 8 stacks of STBFL, just facecamp them, and deny anyone from unhooking them. If they somehow manage to get an unhook (Where i assume they are all now injured, and some might be on the ground, just immediately shoot the unhooked survivor with Deathslinger's weapon, and wait till the Endurance runs out, and down them.
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I think a lot of the people responding to you are completely missing the point (par for the course for a lot of posters on this forum).
There is no expression of skill in playing every match the same way - get the first down, tunnel/camp the first hook, suddenly start alternating hooks after the first survivor dies and you have an extreme advantage. Yet that happens so often.
I don't know why there is so much pushback to what you said. It is a simple fact. Players who play that way aren't as good as they think they are because it is a 'tactic' (according to some posters in this thread) that requires very little skill, yet is greatly rewarded.
Many players would rather killers who are the 'type a' be greatly buffed and 'type b' be greatly nerfed.
Never should I, as a 'type a' killer, have to think 'I should have stood next to the hook and secured the next hook state'. Yet more often than not that is the most optimal way to play.
Sad thing is the type B killers in this thread will see this post and think I am suggesting a nerf to killers. Nah, I'd like to see skilless 'strategies' nerfed and the actual mode of skill expression in this game (quickly winning chases) buffed.
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You didn't answer the question: what is the broken mechanic?
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I never said camping/tunnelling wasn’t valid. It’s clearly allowed. But if you’re primarily a Type B, you have no basis for saying you’re a good killer just because you get 4ks.
I’m not changing the premise that the game design is flawed. Type B seem to think they’re ‘smart’ by playing this way. The flaw they exploit is that survivors have to save their teammates for the most part. Not only that but most games are solo and there is no coordination so teammates will almost always be saving off the hook. And again… fine. Smart play if you want to be a Type B and just get 4ks. You’re just not a good killer and can’t claim to be so.
And let’s not get distracted by the outliers… times when survivors hook dive, or endgame with 2 survivors left, whatever… I’m talking about killers, and there are a TON OF THEM, that most play Type B style yet think they’re ‘good’ at killer. I maintain no. You’re not. Type B play is for those that aren’t good enough to win as Type A… or are just lazy or toxic I guess.
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You're one of those guys i see. Well, i'm just gonna leave it here. Enjoy abusing broken aspects in this game, because you enjoy getting easy matches against solo queue teams, where 1 could have thousands of hours, and the rest have under 20 hours. As long as killer mains can complain about everything, BHVR will just make it easier for them.
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Let me ask you a question: why do you care what other people think of themselves? Why is skill such an important and tender subject for you? If I do something a certain way, and it produces results, what's to dissuade me from continuing such behavior? Absolutely nothing. I'm going to keep doing it. Why? Because I don't care about being the most "skillful" player in the game. It's irrelevant. My skills (or lack of skills) at a video game mean precisely DICK in the real world; it doesn't pay my rent, and it doesn't feed my kids.
If anything, I feel like the obsession over skill says more about the accuser than the accused. It's a shame some people can't have fun for the sake of fun, and always feel the need to measure themselves against others.
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Obviously there's little skill expression there, but I'd argue that there's equally little expression of skill on the side of the survs getting 4Kd. It's reciprocal.
- It's presumptuous to assume such killers universally "aren't as good as they think they are", and that thought comes from a knee jerk, insecurity driven response to being beaten. When I get a 4K because a surv team played in such a a way that it never made a lick of sense to leave the general hook vicinity, it don't puff my chest out and congratulate myself for being great, I take it as a gift given by poor survivors. If a team plays that way, they're going to keep playing that way more often than not, and they should be punished for it. If a team demonstrates they are going to immediately send 2 to the hook every time someone is put on, I'm not going to run away just because; that's an absurd expectation.
- There is yet to be a good proposal for nerfing camping put forward, and these skilless strategies are never going to go away completely, though I wish that were not true. As such, survivors need to look not just at the lack of consideration from camping killers, but their role in it, and more often than not, they absolutely play a big role in it. Type B killers are a thing, but a lot of the time survs lean into their playstyle, rewarding it, and helping propagate they behavior we all hate.
Here's the reality: more often than not, good survs don't consistently get 4K'd by type B killers. If you find yourself consistently on the wrong side of camper 4Ks, it's likely you're either playing with potatoes or a potato yourself.
This "these killers think they're good but aren't" may be true, but it's also copium for survs not being as good as they think they are. A loss feels like an insult of sorts, and when insulted, we want to insult back. It's human nature. Killers find continued success with those low skill strats because they are typically matched with comparably skilled survs that facilitate their success.
Of course this is all open to exception because of crap matchmaking, but is generally true, imo.
I am not a spectacular killer, but virtually every game I've dominated and rarely left the general vicinity of the hook was due to poor surv play. I didn't go to other areas because the survs weren't in other areas.
Conversely, most games in which I've really been challenged (or struggled) are games in which survs split up, divided attention, didn't send 2 or 3 to the hook for saves, etc. Games in which playing the type B style would not have worked at all.
Personally, I will play whatever way seems logical in the moment; I've never gone into a game thinking "I'm gonna hook someone and wait for the others to come to me, and trade until everyone is dead". That's not fun. Sometimes it ends up that way, but It's not something I ever want.
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Yeah, I'm one of those guys who like a direct answer to a direct question. I'm weird like that. The fact that you can't (or won't) answer it just tells me that YOU'RE the one looking for something to complain about. Best go get some ice for that butt. 😉
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The fact that you can not run him for 5 Gens then escaping tells alot about your low skill.
No seriously, someone here complains about how good a survivor that chase them for 4-5 Gen then die to their camping and still telling that survivor to get good
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You can do everything right and still lose, thats a big part of the nature in this game, and applies to both sides evenly.
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I just disagree with the part about ‘mostly good survivors don’t lose to Type B killers’. THe reason that really isn’t true, and part of the reason people quit these games… is that matchmaking is awful. And please don’t forget that this is true in peak times and horrendously awful in non-peak times. So 1-2 good survivors on a team still constantly lose or quit because they’re facing a Type B. You just can’t do anything with bad matchmaking so 1-2 weak players pretty much ends the game. Toss in a Type B killer or a Nurse or Blight… the game is pretty pointless.
And to Superbeasto talking about why I or anyone cares about the skill component… we’re playing a game. And because matchmaking is so bad, good survivors get beaten by bad killers (mostly Type B) all day long. I think everyone would have better games if these Type Bs cared about increasing their skill with the killer instead of just camping and tunnelling. If you or others just want to play Type B style… that’s your prerogative. And surely sometimes very good killers who can Type A all day surely resort to Type B for their own reasons. But again, Type B is just the lazy, easy way to play for those that aren’t good enough or are just being lazy. You can’t play that way and also say it’s a skillful way of playing. Either play with some skill and give a good game or get your easy 4k and accept you played pretty skilllessly. It doesn’t make you smarter than the survivors who tried to save their teammates. It’s more about the flaw in the design that forces players to the hook. This is why I think a universal Pyramidhead style would be better. Send survivors to a random location far away. All killers.
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I think a lot of survivor mains confuse proxy camping with establishing a solid 4-5 gen defence they can patrol easily mid game. Like if I have someone on hook I'll move to the closest gens first and look to secure an area. If the survivor happens to be hooked in that area, which they most likely will due to smart survivors trying to break a possible 3 gen then in not going to move away to the other side of the map to pressure a gen that is completely irrelevant to the late game. Frankly is you do that then you're pretty much giving the game away.
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There is a huge difference. They're up against the best survivors in the world. People who are on comms and can reasonably counter facecamping to some extent. It's not the same as facecamping random solos who can't communicate what's going on. There is no skill involved in facecamping randoms. Wasn't this the whole controversy with the kills=skill argument when MMR came out? I thought we were in agreement about this.
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We can now divide survivors into Type A and Type B.
Type A survivors are very skilled and always on their best behavior. Above average chasing, above average generator, and above average unhooking.
However, even a good Type A survivor can be 4k'd because matchmaking does not allow for a full four survivors. But still performs better as a solo queue than a type B survivor. This is because they are willing to sacrifice allies to achieve their objectives if necessary, or to be part of a resource that buys time without selfishly DCing or killing themselves.
Type B survivors are SWFs together. They use voice chat, which does not inherently exist in the game, and obtain an overwhelming information advantage that they cannot inherently obtain in the game. They use it to generate no-pressure generators.
Type B survivors who gain an advantage that cannot be gained in-game through voice chat have had so much success that they believe they are good at the game and will not try to become Type A survivors. If they want to be good, they must be able to win without having to rely on voice chat for the majority of their play.
Yeah, we can talk about both sides of the issue.
I have no problem with camping and tunneling as a tactic, but I understand that it can be boring when faced with For that reason, I believe we need a system that makes it more fun for the faced survivor and incentives for the killer to choose not to play them to make the game more lucrative.
This is my thought on the possibility of the "that killer is OP" argument arising if you make camping and tunneling completely impossible and still have a type A killer do 4k. If it always does 4k without camping or tunneling I would consider it OP. I also have the slightly contradictory thought that it is not OP because of the camping and tunneling.
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I just want to totally agree with this. I think this highlights a major problem with the game… people watch streamers and try to imitate their play when they don’t have the skill to do it. And like re: Hunkulese’s post… i think they imagine they are playing these highly competitive games that require those tactics. Sometimes people just have to face the reality that they’re not that good yet and they’re not camping/tunnelling to fight off some epic 4 man swf… they’re just struggling to win because they’re not at the level of their competition. They find that they can’t win without playing Type B so rather than try to get better anyway and accept losses as part of the road to improvement they keep playing Type B. The survivor issue with the ‘play like a streamer’ thing is that you get these players that think they can play injured and make crazy saves and they just get beaten down because their high risk play gets crushed by a decent killer.
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I mean.. sure. I guess. Not the best division of A and B but ok. You’re basically saying A are good solos and B are swf players. I 100% agree that people that only play swfs are generally not as good as players that can do well in solo and swf. 100%. The difference though in my point and yours… 4 man swfs are 5% of games. Killers that just focus their game around the hook to get cheap hits or tunnel, whatever… my guess is that’s closer to 50% - 75% of games. And that occurs against solos 90% of the time.
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Recognizing the forced outcome that killers have to camp or tunnel if they want to win, vs actual good survivors, is a sign of maturity. I mean, do you think we just camp and tunnel because we don't know how to chase? We do, otherwise we wouldn't have got the initial down to even begin camping and tunneling. Here's the real 2 types of killers:
1) The killer who knows how to chase, but has tried their hand at playing for hooks/chases for months or years, and has come to the conclusion that camping and tunneling is more consistent, so therefore they do it.
2) The scrub killer who either tunnels/camps without even knowing the terminology or does it accidentally, or who hasn't learned to chase and just camps and tunnels because they heard it was the best strat.
The similarity is that both get destroyed by good survivors. You can be great at chasing and pressuring gens, but I've got news for you. That doesn't cut it. All survivors have to is be good in chase OR on gens, and you're most likely finished, because the gens go too quick for you to get all those chases in. When the survivors are good at both, there's literally nothing you can do, and you should just accept the 1-3 hooks and the 0-1k. Camping and tunneling doesn't even save you. because those strategies aren't infallible. If you're Leatherface or somebody, you can secure a kill off 1 down, maybe a 2nd with NOED, but is that really winning? I don't think so, especially since playing your heart out going for chases gets you the same or worse results. And this is apparently what the devs and the community wants, a 2k average. So why force killers into that outcome through terrible balance and then complain about it?
I get that chases reflect the most skill, which is why ideally we all want to go for those. But as fun as that is, it's not fun enough to most people to where it outweighs the fun of winning, and that's fine for people to think that way. As it stands, killer doesn't have enough time to even get in a few chases vs efficient teams, at least not enjoyable or interactive chases. Most of it is just breaking pallets that you can't mindgame, forcing Bloodlust, and forcing entity blocker. The game isn't balanced for the killer to take 2 hits to down. The sprint burst guarantees that the chase resets unless the survivor does a stupid move, which is even worse than the initial chase assuming it was an easy surprise hit. But good survivors don't give that surprise hit because they hold forward the moment they see or hear you.
Gen defence, which gives you some time for more chases, literally isn't enough and it still gets nerfed constantly. Why is getting nerfed? Because people say, "It encourages camping and tunneling, and rewards bad killers who go on many/long chases." Except you get little use out of gen defence if you're tunneling, and basically none at all by camping, and assuming you do a mix of those or neither of those, you are in fact going for more chases, even if they're long. So which is it? Do survivors want to go for many chases, or do they want to do the gens in a few minutes while the killer plays in a way that gives the survivors an easy win? To suggest you can have both, as most do, is an oxymoron. You can't say that the killers who go for many chases and lose are baby killers for losing, but also want them to play that way because it's more fun and skillful.
And just in case this has been overlooked, we're talking about high level play. Any killer can 4k with 30s AFK/no perks/no add-ons vs inefficient survivors. What any killer can't do is beat any good survivor team, not matter how well they play. Survivors' mistakes are required for killer to win, because otherwise there literally isn't enough time to kill them. If you try and settle for the 1-2k from the get-go, use as much guaranteed slowdown as you can, make every chase as short as you can, tunnelling and camping all the way, then maybe that's what you'll get, but nothing is guaranteed without survivor mistakes. What you're asking for is for killers to give up any perceived goal of winning, in favor of making the match more fun for the survivors, because that's "skillfull" and "sportsmanlike" or whatever, so that they can feel some sort of accomplishment and pride from losing because they intentionally made it harder on themselves. I don't see it, and I never will.
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Yeah it is, because survivors can trump it. Unhooking and body blocking?
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I appreciate that thoughtful post. But a couple things… you’re turning both A and B into camper/tunnellers but just giving different perspectives on it. I would say (and did say) that Type A can sometimes primarily proxy camp a game for whatever reason. Type B are the scrubs that proxy camp most of the game.
And I understand and agree that at high level, WITH GOOD MATCHMAKING, killers NEED to use a proxy camping, tunnelling strategy to win. But that’s not my point. I’m talking about the vast majority of games that are NOT against high level 4 man swfs. The stats have been out for months. 4 man swfs are 5% of matches. 3-4 man swfs are 10%. So 90% of games are NOT going to be against really tough teams where you need a Type B play style.
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First... Thank you for taking my comment as a logical argument. Thanks for the reply.
My argument is divided into several sections, but for now I would like to respond to the points you made.
The idea that the SWF of 4 is 5% and the camps and tunneling is 50-75%.
My point about SWF for voice chat is that the number of people is irrelevant.
Even with a SWF of two people, the maximum advantage gained by voice chat is lower, but it is still an advantage.
What you have there is information that is not inherently obtainable in the game. Taking advantage of that is consistent with your assertion that you can't win a game without relying on voice chat for a large part of your play and believe that you are good at the game because you have had a lot of success. I am glad you understand me on this.
Now, the guess that camping and tunneling is 50-75%.
I don't know about guessing the numbers, but I believe that not a few killers actually choose these.
There are several reasons.
The killers are finding enjoyment in the kills.
We want to get at least 1k.
Archive.
There are many more, but I would guess that the primary reason is to win the game by taking advantage of the game.
It's obvious that if you field four survivors for the majority of the game you will lose; you can only gain an advantage by making it harder for the survivors to choose by making it three.
The choice of camping and tunneling for this purpose makes sense in itself. As I commented earlier on that, the fact that the survivor faced with that would be boring should be addressed, and it is my opinion that it would be good to have a system that gives the killer an advantage by not making those choices.
To bring the argument back to SWF again, to win SWF (especially, as you say, with 4 people) as a killer, you need to make the best in-game choices over and above the best loadout. Camping in voice chat is pointless, but reducing the number of people early is in itself an advantage. Still, it is hard to get 4k without camping or tunneling against a good survivor, SWF or not.
If you still lose big by 0-1k, it will be strongly ingrained in your memory. Like a trauma. Even stronger if they did BM.
And I think they will use camping and tunneling as their main tactic in the next game and even more so in the game after that. Because it feels more ridiculous to lose without it.
Sorry for the long sentence, but I see a lot of problems with the game system. I will mention that when you consider DbD from many angles, a balance that allows 5 people to continue to have fun at all times will never happen.
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Actually that’s like saying you lost to a bad survivor because they had old DH.
It’s not so much the player is bad, as much as the player actively choosing the “easy” way. Because camping in the current state of the game is not balanced.
I’ll give you a more current example. I recently brought a key with blood amber + beads. Because I wanted to see what the fuzz was about. Allowed me to have wall-hacks on the killer’s every move. Was that tactical? Technically yes. Was it fun or fair for them? Personally I don’t think so, because it put me at an advantage. It didn’t make me think or mind-game the killer as much as basically just nullifying their mind-game, because it was that easy.
So again, it’s not so much about the actual “skill” of the player as much as the action that takes place being skillful.
Usually when I “lose” to a camper, I don’t equate that to someone who kept the pressure via chases and still 4k’d.
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That is true; it is very similar to saying you lost a game because of old DH. I didn't blame survivors for using pre 6.1 DH and I don't blame Killers for camping. I do think pre 6.1 DH was unhealthy for the game and camping is as currently unhealthy but it's not the players fault for using a flaw in game design. The onus is on BHVR to correct it; not the players.
In the meantime what you also said is true. There's a micro part of game play and a macro. Many people pay attention to the micro such as looping but don't acknowledge the macro such as picking the correct gens to do so they don't 3 gen or, as you said, bringing and using the key with the blood amber effectively.
Survivors using pre 6.1 DH were being smart in using a perk that overly enhanced their chances of winning due to an imbalance on the survivor side and Killers who camp are doing the same with camping due to an imbalance on the Killer side. To be honest, I'm also leaning to the opinion that current Eruption is as bad as pre 6.1 DH as well right now.
BHVR did quite rightfully in my opinion change DH to its current iteration and now I would like to see more anti-camping tools along with incentives to spread around hooks and make tunneling and camping the least effective options. In the meantime, and this is a reference to the OP and not you, there is no point in insulting people who are making use of something that increases their odds of winning as long as that something is part of intended game design.
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We shouldn't be concerned with non-high level. You simply don't balance for that. Y'all can't hide behind, "Solo/low MMR is weak" to cripple balancing forever.
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As always, it's nice to see someone complain about proxy camping (or the Killer just not immediately vacating the entire area--never mind that some Killers can get back to a hook if they see a rescue coming really damn fast and intervene) and then the dozen or so posts that go off about facecamping Bubba and the like.
"Running off to randomly start a new chase" is neither inherently better nor more skilled. The difference between the two types is A) the state of the match, and B) whether you have any idea where Survivors are going to be. No aura reading, no gens being done, and no sign of Survivors? It'd be an idiot who just ran totally away from the hook on the chance of getting someone.
Completely abandoning a hooked survivor with no reason to do so is a really dumb choice. Decision making matters.
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Remember: BHVR actively makes maps that make killers want to chase less. They intentionally put on every new map a loop or two that killer just can't afford to engage against a survivor with 2 brain cells if they don't have decent anti-loop. So every chase you take has a risk to be completely failed, and since we have boons, pressure you can get by wounding survivors is meaningless. Killers ara adapting to the game by taking less chases.
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Pretty sure predators in the wild won't just walk off from a carcass to let Hyenas and Jackals come to rob it.
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