Make Self-Care and Hex: Ruin Built in Perks!
Perks that we always use.
Some perks among the sea of perks are so vital that not running them is almost a nice gesture to the opposing faction. These are perks that we see al least 1 of in literally every single game and in most cases 4 times perk game when it comes to survivors.
For the killers it's even more simple: They just run that perk.
So if we notice that through a perk we've created something that is so important that it simply limits build variety, why would not build it inside of the basic kit of the killer and survivors?
Let's make a trade!
What perks are we trading?
Self-Care and Hex:Ruin. These are the perks that are like the brothers of crucial perks, similar to how NOED and Decisive Strike are brothers of the most hated perks.
We want to have self-healing BUILT INTO the basic survivor kit and we want a slightly altered version of HEX: Ruin built inside of the killer's kit, to avoid the possible presence of having too many hex perks.
Self-Care
So what does it mean for the teachable perk of Claudette self-care? Something here has to be changed right? What will happen to the reworked perk of claudette is the following; The perk self-care, from being the absolute meta perk, becomes a non-meta perk that is decent.
NEW SELF-CARE:
Your healing Item Efficiency is increased by a 100%
The new self-care would be a great addition for people running med-kits or who run a Pharmacy build. Self-care is no longer a perk that you'll see every game and is not only used in builds where it's appropriate and I personally would be looking forward to using the: Pharmacy, Self-care,Botany Knowledge and Ace In The Hole build!
Hex: Ruin
Unlike self-care we cannot simply give this perk to the killers for free for 1 reason: Hex: Ruin is a hex perk and with an extra perk slot, a killer would be able to run 6 hex totems at once!
Hex Ruin + Haunted Grounds = 3 and would still have 3 perk slots for Hex perks!
Since we are building Hex: Ruin into the base-kit of the killer, let's also fix the perk and target some key issues that arose from it.
the FREE Hex: Ruin will no longer be a hex. Instead, it lasts for X amount of failed skill-checks for each individual survivor, with X being experimental, starting at 10 for each individual survivor.
So if you fail 10 Ruin skill-checks then you'll no longer be affected by it, where as your teammates could still be.
Normally, Hex: Ruin is would be a perk that predominantly punished bad players, as bad players wouldn't be able to tank through the hex skill-checks. This created a reverse affect of what should've happened: For high end players hex: ruin wasn't really a problem, but for low-end players it could literally lose them the game.
By the time Hex: Ruin was found, high-end survivors would've at best failed 1 or 2 hex: ruin skill checks, but with the new system, they'll just be affected later on by the failed skill-checks they still have to tank through.
It's also a slight nerf to tunneling, as the person who has been hooked will likely still get Hex skill-checks where as fresh people don't.
with the new Free Ruin being finished, what will happen to the teachable Hex: Ruin?
NEW HEX: RUIN:
Skill-checks will randomly appear across the screen. (exactly the same as Doctor's)
Similar to how certain perks give the exposed status effect and killers can gain those effects through their abilities, Doctor will now get this effect free through his ability where as other killers can get it through the Hex perk.
A lot of people will be excited about trying this Hex: Ruin build on many different killers!
It also works decent against decisive strike!
Can't wait to try out: Hex: Lullaby, Hex: Ruin, Hex: Thrill of the Hunt, Unnerving Presence!
Your try
Now I invite you to realise the build-burden that has been lifted off of you! There are no longer "Required Perks" that limit your build variability by 1! You truly have 4 slots now, not just 3!
Leave your new builds in the comment down below, taking that these changes go into effect!
Let me know if you would like to see this change!
Comments
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Nice idea, but I am afraid you didn't understand what these perks really do:
Self-Care enables you to heal yourself. Why is that so strong and got nerfed?
Because you no longer relies on other to heal you. They can work on gens, totems, distract the killer. Not half of your team loses time to find each other and heal. Faster healing won't compensate for being able to work on 4 things simultaneously.
Hex: Ruin is taken to increase the action window of a killer and slow down the gen progression. You either have to power through or waste time to look for the totem and cleanse it (usually behind the gen or you spawn next to it). Your Ruin removes every counterplay from the survivors, random skill checks penalize new players and buff veterans. I read nothing from only increase the progression on a great skill check, so the game will be faster on higher level. And it will be an indirect Nerf to Freddy.
btw there are only 5 dull totems on the map.
DS =\= NOED they are no brothers they are different as day and night!
DS can nullify and reset a chase and by doing so lose you the game how the dead-efficency-spiral works.
NOED is a fun perk AFTER the game to get a scary factor and end up wih 1-2 kills or a 4k with over altruistic survivors.
The power of self-care is, that you and your team don't need to waste time looking for each other and heal each other. You can even heal during a chase and snap yourself out of Freddie's Dreamworld.
Hex: Ruin is there to slow down the game. But increased gentimers are no fun and on higher level you don't even care. It is an annoyance yes that can easily be cleansed by doing one totem.
It even can help you to locate other gens and survivors and lure the killer to you.
As a beginner you don't understand what's going on, then you get better and just find it annoying and in the end you are asking yourself, why is it even in the game?5 -
Lol what a joke xD
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You're missing the entire problem. These are bandaid fixes for the actual problems and instead of fixing those problems, you're just wanting the bandaids to be permanent.
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@Blueberry said:
You're missing the entire problem. These are bandaid fixes for the actual problems and instead of fixing those problems, you're just wanting the bandaids to be permanent.I don't miss the entire problem.
Fixing what you think is the problem would cause hex: ruin to become a problem and fixing the problem for survivors is exactly giving self-care to the survivors.
If you put more effort in defining what you "believe" to be the problem then I'll take my time showing why you are wrong.
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I'm the same opinion since 2 years. Then it was a build in BS but killer got that +/- . Now it's ruin.
People say those mechanics are overpowered. Nah they're not. You can balance the game around those perks. Decisive Strike today is not that strong what it was a year ago. But they didnt changed the perk ^^
they didnt nerfed DS but balanced the game around this perk.
So an integrated selfcare would be like a build in kindred. progress^^ and you start balancing the game around it.
but our devs have to do other things before that. a bit more balance, a serious endgame and a completely new ranking system AND dedicated serversand THEN build in perks
so maybe dez 19 or 201 -
Self-Care
Nice idea, but I am afraid you didn't understand what these perks really do:
Self-Care enables you to heal yourself. Why is that so strong and got nerfed? Because you no longer relies on other to heal you. They can work on gens, totems, distract the killer. Not half of your team loses time to find each other and heal. Faster healing won't compensate for being able to work on 4 things simultaneously.I understand what these perks really do. Let me explains what self-care(or the lack of it) really does:
The lack of Self-Care and reliance on needing others to heal you is an anti-lower survivor count mechanic. It makes healing harder for lower-survivor counts due to- Needing someone else to heal you, which requires someone to have available time to know your location decreases as people die. This makes people more dependant on the initial push.
- Healing by definition becomes less profitable for lower survivor count teams as it extra borrowed time in % with generator efficiency drops tremenduously for every death survivor.
- Requiring someone else's location is an SWF rewarding mechanic.
So not only is the lack of self-care:
- Pro SWF
- Anti-low survivor count teams
- Making the Initial Push problem worse
- Making healing nearly impossible at 2 or 1 surviving survivors
This is literally the opposite of what we want to see in this game. If everyone would run self-care in their basic kit than that would remain to keep healing balanced, due to perks that help you heal others give superior healing speeds to people (We'll make it), where as Selfcare would only limit the time to need to find someone else, which is obsolete at hooks and which isn't even beneficial when you don't know where they are.
Hex: Ruin
Hex: Ruin is taken to increase the action window of a killer and slow down the gen progression. You either have to power through or waste time to look for the totem and cleanse it (usually behind the gen or you spawn next to it). Your Ruin removes every counterplay from the survivors, random skill checks penalize new players and buff veterans. I read nothing from only increase the progression on a great skill check, so the game will be faster on higher level. And it will be an indirect Nerf to Freddy.
- SWF's are the most likely people to dismantle ruin and waste the lowest amount of time searching it.
- Higher tier players disable Ruin the fastest after that
- Lower tier players disable or never get to disable the hex ruin perk, which they will encounter in nearly every single of their games.
The new Hex Ruin allows you to delay the regression of the Ruin Skillcheck. Only if a high tier player is able to hit no less than 10 Perfect Skill-checks will the new ruin predominantly target lower tier players, but lower tier players who fail a lot of skill-checks will also be the quickest to no longer having to endure the effects.
Your Ruin removes every counterplay from the survivors
What you call counter play is nothing more than bad totem spawns and this too is an issue, because this basically wastes a perk or let's it have more effect on the game than it should be (and depending on maps like the swamp would incredibly increase it's power).
Or in other words: your definition of counter-play basically is the problem itself and creates very inconsistent scenario's.Other mentions
DS =\= NOED they are no brothers they are different as day and night!
They are brothers of being the most hated perks. I don't get what you're getting at? Let's take a poll and ask survivors their most hated perk? Well, that will be NOED. Let's ask the same to killers and they'll say Decisive...
Or can you name a different most hated perk?
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Blueberry said:
You're missing the entire problem. These are bandaid fixes for the actual problems and instead of fixing those problems, you're just wanting the bandaids to be permanent.I don't miss the entire problem.
Fixing what you think is the problem would cause hex: ruin to become a problem and fixing the problem for survivors is exactly giving self-care to the survivors.
If you put more effort in defining what you "believe" to be the problem then I'll take my time showing why you are wrong.
"Fixing what you think is the problem would cause hex: ruin to become a problem and fixing the problem for survivors is exactly giving self-care to the survivors."
No, no it wouldn't in both cases.
Ruin is a bandaid for slowing down matches since they are too fast currently and it still fails at that objective, it's just the best we have. It is also quite ineffective at high ranks, so making this passive is simply harming low ranks even more.
Not only is time an issue for killers currently, but by making Self Care a passive for all you're taking even more time away from the killers as hits become even less meaningful. This also gives survivors an extra perk slot in a game where they are already quite over performing from where they should be.
The real problem is not that those perks are required per say. The problem is that the game is balanced poorly to where they feel that needed. The solution is not making them base, the solution is removing the need for them. You did miss the problem.
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Hell no to the default Hex: Ruin. That is an awful idea. There are better ways to fix the early survivor snowball than that.
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It's weird to see someone put so much effort into such a bad idea.3
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Maybe not just one specific perk but all characters could have their one teachable perk as default. Wouldn’t it be more meaningful to play with that character.0
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That trade off is no where near equal.
SC is much more powerful than Ruin.
I play a lot of killer without Ruin, but I never play survivor without SC.0 -
The new effect for hex ruin shouldn't be something that is already in game. Better would be to make it so that skillcheck needless go the other way around and faster.
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To make things clear: Here are a few things you can disagree on:
1. You believe that crucial perks should require 1 perk slot, limiting you to 3.
2. You believe that my current suggestion wouldn't balance the power that 1 gains from it, where as the other gains less from it.
3. Hex: Ruin specific, which has less to do with my post and more with hex: ruin is that it's stronger against weaker players.Ruin is a bandaid for slowing down matches since they are too fast currently and it still fails at that objective, it's just the best we have. It is also quite ineffective at high ranks, so making this passive is simply harming low ranks even more.
So this is disagreeing with 3, which has more to do with hex ruin. Since this disagreement is targeted at the perk itself, then propose whatever changes you'd like to see to it. That would carry over it the Installed version of hex ruin with X amount of skill-checks.
Not only is time an issue for killers currently, but by making Self Care a passive for all you're taking even more time away from the killers as hits become even less meaningful. This also gives survivors an extra perk slot in a game where they are already quite over performing from where they should be.
It only does 1 here not both. Either you already run self-care and your hits are already "meaningless" (cough, they buy you 32 seconds of time minimally), or you get an extra perk slot. Don't pretend that you get both.
The real problem is not that those perks are required per say. The problem is that the game is balanced poorly to where they feel that needed. The solution is not making them base, the solution is removing the need for them. You did miss the problem.
To clarify; "The problem is that the game is balanced poorly to where they feel that needed". You think this is what I'm "missing"?
Now let me clarify the problem that you are missing:
(Instead of typing it out again, Try the link below:
Solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem. Solving the game's Biggest IssueThe problem of why this game CANNOT be properly balanced is exactly due to the type of game-play mechanics and dependancy that you propose.
Instead of steering the game away from being completely dependant on the "Initial Push Outcome" + adding infinitely more tools for balance, you instead solely focus on marrying the Initial push and only get as far as: "Should we increase it or should we decrease it?".
As @Incarnate pointed out, not being able to self-heal and recover from the dying state add to the problems caused by the Initial Push.
Through your parameters of balance, balance isn't possible. That is what you don't understand.
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@Dreamnomad said:
Hell no to the default Hex: Ruin. That is an awful idea. There are better ways to fix the early survivor snowball than that.There you have the anti-snow ball.
But we're not covering anti-snowball here. We are promoting build variety via a fair trade-off between the 2 most essential perks.
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@antgnstea said:
Maybe not just one specific perk but all characters could have their one teachable perk as default. Wouldn’t it be more meaningful to play with that character.this would cause the overboom of claudette, since she has one of the strongest onces, although character specific attributes inherently wouldn't be a problem.
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@Kebek said:
The new effect for hex ruin shouldn't be something that is already in game. Better would be to make it so that skillcheck needless go the other way around and faster.The direction thing is interesting, but this would be very similar to Hex: Lullaby, also currently in the game, when it comes to the skill-check speed.
If you'd want to try to do the different skill-check direction approach, it may need a secondary effect, not speed, to drive it more apart from Lullaby yet justifiable as a hex perk.
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@brokedownpalace said:
It's weird to see someone put so much effort into such a bad idea.The idea of keeping things the way they are is a lot worse, thus this is why economist teach you to add a second question when asking if something is good/bad:
"relative to what?"
and I'd take build variety over restricted 3 perk slots.
Preferably self-care is given to survivors > Hex: Ruin is nerfed but stays a perk > Killers gain different mechanics through which they can slow down steam-rolling survivors. But that's a lot to wish for.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Dreamnomad said:
Hell no to the default Hex: Ruin. That is an awful idea. There are better ways to fix the early survivor snowball than that.There you have the anti-snow ball.
But we're not covering anti-snowball here. We are promoting build variety via a fair trade-off between the 2 most essential perks.
You really need to work on using less words to say what needs to be said. The game shouldn't be so complicated that it takes reading a manuscript to understand. It should also be intuitive. Your ideas are the opposite of that. A new player wouldn't understand why skill checks are different or why gens progress at different rates at different times. Simplify things.
For instance, there is a 25% penalty to generator repairs during the first 2 1/2 minutes of the game or until the first generator is finished. First generator finished gives a 1000 bloodpoint bonus to the survivor(s) that completed the generator. Simple. Survivors get more bloodpoints, killer gets a slower early game. Everyone's happy. End game once only 2 or fewer survivors are remaining they get a 25% increase to generator repair. Helps offset the early game penalty and makes the 2 survivor game more viable for survivors.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Kebek said:
The new effect for hex ruin shouldn't be something that is already in game. Better would be to make it so that skillcheck needless go the other way around and faster.The direction thing is interesting, but this would be very similar to Hex: Lullaby, also currently in the game, when it comes to the skill-check speed.
If you'd want to try to do the different skill-check direction approach, it may need a secondary effect, not speed, to drive it more apart from Lullaby yet justifiable as a hex perk.
It feels to me that your new hex ruin is really underpowered. Like how many survivors actually have real problem with doc's skill checks. I'd say that your new hex ruin would never be used by anyone above rank 10.
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Open for suggestions (:
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@BlueberryTo make things clear: Here are a few things you can disagree on:
1. You believe that crucial perks should require 1 perk slot, limiting you to 3.
2. You believe that my current suggestion wouldn't balance the power that 1 gains from it, where as the other gains less from it.
3. Hex: Ruin specific, which has less to do with my post and more with hex: ruin is that it's stronger against weaker players.Ruin is a bandaid for slowing down matches since they are too fast currently and it still fails at that objective, it's just the best we have. It is also quite ineffective at high ranks, so making this passive is simply harming low ranks even more.
So this is disagreeing with 3, which has more to do with hex ruin. Since this disagreement is targeted at the perk itself, then propose whatever changes you'd like to see to it. That would carry over it the Installed version of hex ruin with X amount of skill-checks.
Not only is time an issue for killers currently, but by making Self Care a passive for all you're taking even more time away from the killers as hits become even less meaningful. This also gives survivors an extra perk slot in a game where they are already quite over performing from where they should be.
It only does 1 here not both. Either you already run self-care and your hits are already "meaningless" (cough, they buy you 32 seconds of time minimally), or you get an extra perk slot. Don't pretend that you get both.
The real problem is not that those perks are required per say. The problem is that the game is balanced poorly to where they feel that needed. The solution is not making them base, the solution is removing the need for them. You did miss the problem.
To clarify; "The problem is that the game is balanced poorly to where they feel that needed". You think this is what I'm "missing"?
Now let me clarify the problem that you are missing:
(Instead of typing it out again, Try the link below:
Solution to the Death-Efficiency Problem. Solving the game's Biggest IssueThe problem of why this game CANNOT be properly balanced is exactly due to the type of game-play mechanics and dependancy that you propose.
Instead of steering the game away from being completely dependant on the "Initial Push Outcome" + adding infinitely more tools for balance, you instead solely focus on marrying the Initial push and only get as far as: "Should we increase it or should we decrease it?".
As @Incarnate pointed out, not being able to self-heal and recover from the dying state add to the problems caused by the Initial Push.
Through your parameters of balance, balance isn't possible. That is what you don't understand.
"To make things clear: Here are a few things you can disagree on:"
I disagree with both 1 and 2, not 3."Since this disagreement is targeted at the perk itself, then propose whatever changes you'd like to see to it."
I'm not the one making a thread with proposed changes. I'm simply explaining why your idea isn't a good one. Ruin isn't the issue, the game just needs better balancing."It only does 1 here not both. Either you already run self-care and your hits are already "meaningless" (cough, they buy you 32 seconds of time minimally), or you get an extra perk slot. Don't pretend that you get both."
You're missing the point. You may be gaining 32 seconds from healing but next time you see them you're needing 2 hits instead of 1 or alternate scenario with all the extra time they would've wasted finding someone else to heal them. It isn't that 32 seconds is meaningless, it's that the alternive is MUCH better than 32 seconds."To clarify; "The problem is that the game is balanced poorly to where they feel that needed". You think this is what I'm "missing"?"
Yes, as your entire plan isn't around fixing the games poor balance which is the true issue."The problem of why this game CANNOT be properly balanced is exactly due to the type of game-play mechanics and dependancy that you propose."
I havn't proposed anything and the game CAN be balanced properly quite easily."you instead solely focus on marrying the Initial push and only get as far as: "Should we increase it or should we decrease it?"."
Incorrect, this isn't what I am pushing for whatsoever. You've missed entirely and went on with faulty assumptions."Through your parameters of balance, balance isn't possible. That is what you don't understand."
I find this quite comical as you don't even know what my parameters for balance are, I havn't even told you. You're ego is glowing.Your solutions show a lack of understanding.
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The game shouldn't be so complicated that it takes reading a manuscript to understand. It should also be intuitive. Your ideas are the opposite of that.
When it comes to In-built ruin being unintuitive, I agree. The idea of the built-in ruin is also no the most thought out idea and I only gave it as an example to illustrate where we want to be going with this, which is opening up more perk slots.
With ""ideas" I presume you only mean 1 idea, which is the build in hex ruin.However your idea isn't intuitive either and opens up a lot of space for abuse because it's time-based, which SWF's can use as a hiding period to optimise their chance at winning competitively.
As for:
You really need to work on using less words to say what needs to be said. The game shouldn't be so complicated that it takes reading a manuscript to understand.
Since this manuscript covered the whole main issue of the game and not an isolated subject, yes, it should be that long.
Secondly, there's a Table of Contents (see chapter 1). You don't need to read chapter 4 or even chapter 3, maybe not even chapter 2 to understand it.
Chapter 1 is mainly filled with a part about stages, at that point it's just a normally sized post.That's the beauty of a Table of Contents. It's meant to be used.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@KebekOpen for suggestions (:
indeed
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I find this quite comical as you don't even know what my parameters for balance are, I havn't even told you. You're ego is glowing.
Then formulate them and I'll show you that I am right about them. You don't need to get into vaguery or talk about ego. Everything can be illustrated.
- I will show you how your idea of balance revolves around the initial push.
- I will show how you celebrate mechanics that make the initial push worse
- I will show that I can determine based on the fact alone of you not wanting self-care in the basic kit of survivors that I know exactly what you do not understand about game-balance in the type of game DBD is.
Your solutions show a lack of understanding.
The self-care solution shows the opposite.
The Hex Ruin solution is basically a place-holder for making this perk-trading work.But the premise of this post is sound.
Now would you be so kind and show me the "parameters of balance" that I don't know of yet that you have?
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@Wolf74 said:
That trade off is no where near equal.
SC is much more powerful than Ruin.
I play a lot of killer without Ruin, but I never play survivor without SC.The problem with making this Intergrated version of Hex: Ruin too strong is that Hex Ruin is already a partly flawed way of tackling the core issues of the game.
To reach the perfect balance between this trade-off together with finalised game balance would be buffing the killers through different means.
Though with this trade-off, killers already get an extra tool to defend them against being pallet looped, survivors only get it after they've been hit.
It's a healthy trade-off in as much that in order for survivors to use their new power, they need to be hit and left alone, where-as killers get their buff from this game the moment the match starts.Think about it (:
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Wolf74 said:
That trade off is no where near equal.
SC is much more powerful than Ruin.
I play a lot of killer without Ruin, but I never play survivor without SC.The problem with making this Intergrated version of Hex: Ruin too strong is that Hex Ruin is already a partly flawed way of tackling the core issues of the game.
To reach the perfect balance between this trade-off together with finalised game balance would be buffing the killers through different means.
Though with this trade-off, killers already get an extra tool to defend them against being pallet looped, survivors only get it after they've been hit.
It's a healthy trade-off in as much that in order for survivors to use their new power, they need to be hit and left alone, where-as killers get their buff from this game the moment the match starts.Think about it (:
I thought about it and guess what?
Self Care is waaaay to powerful to begin with.
Being self sufficient in a horror survival game should be worth spending a perk on instead of being a build in thing.1 -
@Wolf74
Isn't strength completely relative?
Couldn't we balance the game in the favour of the killer in such a way to where we'd all agree building all the perks into the survivors kit?Being self-sufficient in a horror game looks very healthy to me. Most people in a horror movie appear to be.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34870/solution-to-the-death-efficiency-problem-solving-the-games-biggest-issue#latest
Chapter 3 Section 1Whatever tool a survivor would have; all of it could be balanced out and it could improve the game.
I've personally never had a problem playing against self-care.
I've only had a problem against pallets.
If nobody had Self-Care, that would only increase the strength of SWF's.
For every hit you get off against survivors you buy yourself a minimum of 32 seconds and as pallets disappear, the differences between a healed and not-healed survivor shrink.0 -
Cant be worse than what we have now. Ruin is a ######### joke of a perk.
Literally always spawns right next to the survivor spawn point. I start my frst chase and bam they see it like 20 seconds into the game.
It really takes the piss.0 -
@The_Crusader said:
Cant be worse than what we have now. Ruin is a [BAD WORD] joke of a perk.Literally always spawns right next to the survivor spawn point. I start my frst chase and bam they see it like 20 seconds into the game.
It really takes the piss.
Do you mean that the built-in Ruin is bad? Because that one does not "spawn" in the first place.
The new replacement of the original Hex Ruin in the form of a perk doesn't have to be strong. It might as well be surveillance.0 -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@Wolf74
Isn't strength completely relative?
Couldn't we balance the game in the favour of the killer in such a way to where we'd all agree building all the perks into the survivors kit?Being self-sufficient in a horror game looks very healthy to me. Most people in a horror movie appear to be.
https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/34870/solution-to-the-death-efficiency-problem-solving-the-games-biggest-issue#latest
Chapter 3 Section 1Whatever tool a survivor would have; all of it could be balanced out and it could improve the game.
I've personally never had a problem playing against self-care.
I've only had a problem against pallets.
If nobody had Self-Care, that would only increase the strength of SWF's.
For every hit you get off against survivors you buy yourself a minimum of 32 seconds and as pallets disappear, the differences between a healed and not-healed survivor shrink.Sorry, in general I agree on a lot of your points throughout all the stuff you post, but -I have a pretty strong opinion on Self Care.
Self Care is the main source of unbalance in this game.1 -
Why do you think that?
Curious, because my opinion is the opposite. (I could elaborate later)
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I mean the current ruin is bad. It's an absolute joke. It almost always spawns right next to the survivors.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:@The_Crusader said:
Cant be worse than what we have now. Ruin is a [BAD WORD] joke of a perk.Literally always spawns right next to the survivor spawn point. I start my frst chase and bam they see it like 20 seconds into the game.
It really takes the piss.
Do you mean that the built-in Ruin is bad? Because that one does not "spawn" in the first place.
The new replacement of the original Hex Ruin in the form of a perk doesn't have to be strong. It might as well be surveillance.0 -
Making Self-Care a base mechanic only makes hits even more irrelevant than they already are and makes the healing problem worse.
Right now, there are few drawbacks for getting hit during a trial. The biggest (and only) drawbacks are the noise you make, the blood trail, and the fact that an additional hit will put you in the dying state. This can all be reversed as long as you're healed, and you can always be healed an unlimited number of times. To emphasize: the penalties for being hit (i.e.: losing a chase) can be reversed an unlimited number of times without any drawback to the Survivor who was hit. Making Self-Care a base mechanic without first changing healing so that hits actually matter would make the game much more unbalanced.1 -
Oops, I totally agree with that.
The totem Spawn issue remains unresolved despite the varying amounts of post covering the issue.
True Talent recently stated that it's just not fun without Hex Ruin because of how fast the gens go, so despite the flaws we are forced to use it.
I hope that when the Devs have some more time on their hands and commit to a 5 year plan, that they'll start tackling these type of issues that have previously gone ignored.
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@Orion said:
Making Self-Care a base mechanic only makes hits even more irrelevant than they already are and makes the healing problem worse.
Right now, there are few drawbacks for getting hit during a trial. The biggest (and only) drawbacks are the noise you make, the blood trail, and the fact that an additional hit will put you in the dying state. This can all be reversed as long as you're healed, and you can always be healed an unlimited number of times. To emphasize: the penalties for being hit (i.e.: losing a chase) can be reversed an unlimited number of times. Making Self-Care a base mechanic without first changing healing so that hits actually matter would make the game much more unbalanced.SC should have a limited number of uses.
And injuries should take longer and longer to heal the more hits someone recieved during the whole trial (something like "scar token" with every hit).1 -
@Wolf74 said:
@Orion said:
Making Self-Care a base mechanic only makes hits even more irrelevant than they already are and makes the healing problem worse.
Right now, there are few drawbacks for getting hit during a trial. The biggest (and only) drawbacks are the noise you make, the blood trail, and the fact that an additional hit will put you in the dying state. This can all be reversed as long as you're healed, and you can always be healed an unlimited number of times. To emphasize: the penalties for being hit (i.e.: losing a chase) can be reversed an unlimited number of times. Making Self-Care a base mechanic without first changing healing so that hits actually matter would make the game much more unbalanced.SC should have a limited number of uses.
And injuries should take longer and longer to heal the more hits someone recieved during the whole trial (something like "scar token" with every hit).I proposed something similar, but different. Every hit after the first time a Survivor gets healed any number of health states makes them Broken for a set amount of time, increasing with every additional hit. This would force them to improve their stealth game, maybe change up the stale meta for once (Iron Will would probably be tossed in there), and make them actually avoid getting hit.
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No thanks.
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Why do you consider survivors being able to heal themselves up a problem?
Hits aren't valueless. They are worth 32 seconds minimally for ever hit.The value of seconds are varying and depend on how many survivors are alive/have available time.
Healing becomes worse already as more people die.When more people are alive, the likely hood that you are going to get healed is also a lot bigger, meaning that the inability to heal yourself causes you to be more dependent on your teammates, which worsens the problem of tunneling and importance of the 1st kill. It also punishes low survivor counts and adds to the "Hopeless effect" that low-survivor count teams experience.
Self-care is their saviour tool making the game's mechanics less discriminatory towards low-survivor count teams.
If you'd go with the punishment for being hit mechanic, then you'd add to the "surrender effect", because during the 4 man, survivors will be least effected by it where as healing gets worse as time progresses... and healing already naturally gets worse as people die!
All of this scales into making it even more vital for the first survivors to loop the killer a lot, as late-game mechanics are even more biased to destroying their low-survivor count teams.
We should be doing the opposite;
We should harm this initial state in which survivors aren't hurt and release stress from lower survivor counts so that their whole team is less dependant on the 4 mans initial push.maybe change up the stale meta for once
I completely agree that that would be good! The problem is that this wouldn't change up the meta. It would make the meta even more revolving around the 4 man alive push for finishing all gens and we'll see even more tournaments that either end up with a 4 man escape (or 3 if they decide to leave the last one) or a spiral into a 4k.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_MaXa8LRyg&t=303s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnLB_lCoNgE&t=1s
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1LP4XlpBTEIt seems very unintuitive to give survivors the strongest perk for free, but once you understand how certain game mechanics that are supposed to "debuff" survivors, all that it ends up doing is screwing up lower survivor count teams > buffing survivors in their base state and creating the repetitive patterns that you see in the video's linked above.
That would also be the effect of having this:
the penalties for being hit (i.e.: losing a chase) can be reversed an unlimited number of times without any drawback to the Survivor who was hit.
These solutions seem innocent, but add to the undeniable effects that we see from tournament after tournament.
(I randomly selected the 3,4,5 in that one. I think number 2 is an example of both teams getting the better solution, but all with all, there is no in between)0 -
@Boss said:
No thanks.Have fun with 5 years and 3 perks.
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And i see you're already having fun exaggarating.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Why do you consider survivors being able to heal themselves up a problem?
Hits aren't valueless. They are worth 32 seconds minimally for ever hit.I'm just gonna focus on this laughably wrong point.
Hits are worth 32 seconds at best. An M1 Killer (i.e.: the majority of the Killers) also needs about that much to get the hit in the first place, meaning they've gained zero seconds on the first hit. In the mean time, Survivors have gained up to 96 seconds (3*32 being the ideal scenario where each of them is working on a generator).
Hits are worthless when they don't buy you time and any progress gained from them can be reverted an infinite number of times without any drawbacks.1 -
Think again. There's nothing laughably wrong about it.
Taking that survivors want to heal before working on gens, there are 400 seconds (5 * 80)
If you hit them they will have 32 seconds less to work on generators.Survivors have gained up to 96 seconds
Now you're just confirming my point? That healing becomes worse as people die:
(The amount of seconds that you need to be alive after being hit during a chase to make it worth it for having healed yourself.)
4 survivors alive: 10.7 seconds
3 survivors alive: 16 seconds
2 survivors alive: 32 secondsThey do buy you time as you said yourself. They buy you 32 seconds before the 400 is completed. But they do not REGRESS the total progression of the survivors, which is a completely different thing.
Your comment didn't contradict anything I said, so it's hard to see how anything could be laughably wrong about it.
EDIT:
Your desire is basically to increase the window of seconds that you buy by hitting a survivor when there are 4 alive. But your suggestion only makes the current
4 survivors alive: 10.7 seconds
3 survivors alive: 16 seconds
2 survivors alive: 32 seconds
worse.If you'd go through with such a change, than the survivors would no longer be able to book any progression through healing, thus they'd avoid doing it. Now they are bleeding (and without Iron Will) making lots of noice. Was this supposed to help their stealth-game? Now they have blood piles creating a path behind them?
That'd be the death of late-game lightweight as well, and a disproportional buff to in-building maps where blood is very visible.Do you see it now? All the suggested changes against the self-care centered approach make things worse.
1. They increase SWF's imbalance against Solo's
2. They punish Late-Game survivors
3. They even more so ruin stealthThe issue is not healing. Issue is the lack of other proactive ways through which a killer can disproportionally target 4 man-alive survivor teams without disproportionally hurting lower ones.
Healing is part of the solution.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@OrionThink again. There's nothing laughably wrong about it.
Taking that survivors want to heal before working on gens, there are 400 seconds (5 * 80)
If you hit them they will have 32 seconds less to work on generators.Survivors have gained up to 96 seconds
Now you're just confirming my point? That healing becomes worse as people die:
(The amount of seconds that you need to be alive after being hit during a chase to make it worth it for having healed yourself.)
4 survivors alive: 10.7 seconds
3 survivors alive: 16 seconds
2 survivors alive: 32 secondsThey do buy you time as you said yourself. They buy you 32 seconds before the 400 is completed. But they do not REGRESS the total progression of the survivors, which is a completely different thing.
Your comment didn't contradict anything I said, so it's hard to see how anything could be laughably wrong about it.
EDIT:
Your desire is basically to increase the window of seconds that you buy by hitting a survivor when there are 4 alive. But your suggestion only makes the current
4 survivors alive: 10.7 seconds
3 survivors alive: 16 seconds
2 survivors alive: 32 seconds
even worse.It's not 400 seconds. 3 Survivors on 3 generators and then 2 Survivors on 2 generators means it will take a grand total of 160 seconds to repair all five generators. 80 seconds for the first 3, an additional 80 for the other 2. That's the ideal scenario.
400 seconds would mean that only one generator is being worked on at any given time, and only by one Survivor, which has never been the case in all of DbD's history.0 -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@cymerSelf-Care
Nice idea, but I am afraid you didn't understand what these perks really do:
Self-Care enables you to heal yourself. Why is that so strong and got nerfed? Because you no longer relies on other to heal you. They can work on gens, totems, distract the killer. Not half of your team loses time to find each other and heal. Faster healing won't compensate for being able to work on 4 things simultaneously.I understand what these perks really do. Let me explains what self-care(or the lack of it) really does:
The lack of Self-Care and reliance on needing others to heal you is an anti-lower survivor count mechanic. It makes healing harder for lower-survivor counts due to- Needing someone else to heal you, which requires someone to have available time to know your location decreases as people die. This makes people more dependant on the initial push.
- Healing by definition becomes less profitable for lower survivor count teams as it extra borrowed time in % with generator efficiency drops tremenduously for every death survivor.
- Requiring someone else's location is an SWF rewarding mechanic.
So not only is the lack of self-care:
- Pro SWF
- Anti-low survivor count teams
- Making the Initial Push problem worse
- Making healing nearly impossible at 2 or 1 surviving survivors
This is literally the opposite of what we want to see in this game. If everyone would run self-care in their basic kit than that would remain to keep healing balanced, due to perks that help you heal others give superior healing speeds to people (We'll make it), where as Selfcare would only limit the time to need to find someone else, which is obsolete at hooks and which isn't even beneficial when you don't know where they are.
Hex: Ruin
Hex: Ruin is taken to increase the action window of a killer and slow down the gen progression. You either have to power through or waste time to look for the totem and cleanse it (usually behind the gen or you spawn next to it). Your Ruin removes every counterplay from the survivors, random skill checks penalize new players and buff veterans. I read nothing from only increase the progression on a great skill check, so the game will be faster on higher level. And it will be an indirect Nerf to Freddy.
- SWF's are the most likely people to dismantle ruin and waste the lowest amount of time searching it.
- Higher tier players disable Ruin the fastest after that
- Lower tier players disable or never get to disable the hex ruin perk, which they will encounter in nearly every single of their games.
The new Hex Ruin allows you to delay the regression of the Ruin Skillcheck. Only if a high tier player is able to hit no less than 10 Perfect Skill-checks will the new ruin predominantly target lower tier players, but lower tier players who fail a lot of skill-checks will also be the quickest to no longer having to endure the effects.
Your Ruin removes every counterplay from the survivors
What you call counter play is nothing more than bad totem spawns and this too is an issue, because this basically wastes a perk or let's it have more effect on the game than it should be (and depending on maps like the swamp would incredibly increase it's power).
Or in other words: your definition of counter-play basically is the problem itself and creates very inconsistent scenario's.Other mentions
DS =\= NOED they are no brothers they are different as day and night!
They are brothers of being the most hated perks. I don't get what you're getting at? Let's take a poll and ask survivors their most hated perk? Well, that will be NOED. Let's ask the same to killers and they'll say Decisive...
Or can you name a different most hated perk?
i hate self care as a killer. i dont think it should be built in like the maker of the discussion thinks.
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It's not 400 seconds. 3 Survivors on 3 generators and then 2 Survivors on 2 generators means it will take a grand total of 160 seconds to repair all five generators. 80 seconds for the first 3, an additional 80 for the other 2. That's the ideal scenario.
400 seconds would mean that only one generator is being worked on at any given time, and only by one Survivor, which has never been the case in all of DbD's history.Oops I used to total timer instead of the shared timer. Not that it changes the point.
EDIT: wait, I did not screw up at all there. It is 400 seconds, whether it's divided over other players or not. The 400 seconds represents more accurately how much progression is being slowed down with a 32 second worth hit. That is 32 seconds that could've been reduced from the 400.
The number is correct, and on top of that, you didn't address the point.
Post edited by AlwaysInAGoodShape on0 -
And would you also not if this would provide us with the means to balance the game more properly and have less extreme scenario's as always come about in tournaments?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_MaXa8LRyg&t=433shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnLB_lCoNgE&t=2shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1LP4XlpBTESince this change doesn't really affect self-care in your games, it might be the wrong view to look even at the self-care component, since (nearly) everyone is running it. The only different thing would be that someone would have a different perk, while you also have a different perk, perhaps 4 anti-loop tools?
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I've been trying out myers and pig tonight. 7 games. In 6 of them the survivors spawned tight in the same area as the totem.AlwaysInAGoodShape said:Oops, I totally agree with that.
The totem Spawn issue remains unresolved despite the varying amounts of post covering the issue.
True Talent recently stated that it's just not fun without Hex Ruin because of how fast the gens go, so despite the flaws we are forced to use it.
I hope that when the Devs have some more time on their hands and commit to a 5 year plan, that they'll start tackling these type of issues that have previously gone ignored.
So as soon as I began my first chase they would run right past it. ######### ridiculous.
Best game was the last one. I put the game map on to get a good hiding spot for once. Chase a guy and he runs down this back corner where ruin is.
10 seconds later I see his mate go running straigjt down to that area and start cleansing the totem.
Takes the ######### piss. Yet these devs are content to keep lying to everyone about how swf is perfectly balanced.0 -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@XxAtomicAlfiexXAnd would you also not if this would provide us with the means to balance the game more properly and have less extreme scenario's as always come about in tournaments?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=N_MaXa8LRyg&t=433shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MnLB_lCoNgE&t=2shttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=H1LP4XlpBTESince this change doesn't really affect self-care in your games, it might be the wrong view to look even at the self-care component, since (nearly) everyone is running it. The only different thing would be that someone would have a different perk, while you also have a different perk, perhaps 4 anti-loop tools?
self care is just a perk that annoys me. on killer its delaying the inevitable (self care doesnt effect the amount of kills i get that much) and as a survivor i dont use it (my friends love it btw) because i use bond (with every other dwight perk) to find people easier and am probably swf. its just something that is more of an annoyance or a waste of a perk slot. just bring a medkit there usually on the blood web and they heal faster.
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We do have increasingly better imagined tools through which we can close the gap between SWF's and survivors and use that as a better measurement for balancing the game, but this requires us to tackle the communication gap.
The community seems to be split on that one too:
Public Poll: ALL SEEING VS BLINDNESSEither certain parts of the community don't see the issue with this gap or really do not like the direction SWF gameplay has taken itself (whether balanced or not)
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@Orion said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Why do you consider survivors being able to heal themselves up a problem?
Hits aren't valueless. They are worth 32 seconds minimally for ever hit.I'm just gonna focus on this laughably wrong point.
Hits are worth 32 seconds at best. An M1 Killer (i.e.: the majority of the Killers) also needs about that much to get the hit in the first place, meaning they've gained zero seconds on the first hit. In the mean time, Survivors have gained up to 96 seconds (3*32 being the ideal scenario where each of them is working on a generator).
Hits are worthless when they don't buy you time and any progress gained from them can be reverted an infinite number of times without any drawbacks.I share Orions point on this.
And because Self Care is so powerful any debate about putting something like this in a survivors "basekit" for free is pointless.
There is a reason why 84% of all survivor use it, because it IS that good.
Self Care is also the crucial component in gen rush, because gen rush works best if the survivor spread out.
That way the killer can only put pressure on one survivor at a time and no one is "wasting time" searching for teammates to get healed and everyone just runs to some area that is either void of gens or full of looping spots and the killer basically has to drop the chase to keep the "map pressure". That way gives a "free heal".
We all know from experience that each hit takes about 30-40 seconds, because that is what we experience when 3 gens get done on the 1st hook.1
