Make Self-Care and Hex: Ruin Built in Perks!
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Hits are worthless when they don't buy you time and any progress gained from them can be reverted an infinite number of times without any drawbacks.
Isn't this exactly how it should be?
Imagine being hit, being able to escape and still losing to it based on that fact. Why bother escaping form the killer at all?Of course you'd still try, but now you're punished for playing well.
A hit should be a killers gate-way to downing a survivor. If a killer fails to do so, then that survivor shouldn't be punished for that disproportionally and (together with an earlier mentioned suggestion) even further cripple late-game mechanics.If we'd remove self-care for a moment, then you'd see the consequences:
Healing at 2 or 1 might already be impossible, meaning that at this point of the game, there's no more point in playing. You already have everything against you, either that or you're steamrolling the killer to the point the killer feels bullied.
This creates both sides of the extreme.
As you see, all of this results from the community being unable to see the underlying effects of all the changes they propose:
They don't advocate for balance, they advocate to make low-survivor teams weaker while barely touching 4 survivor teams, meaning that the ENTIRE GAME becomes dependent on securing the first kill.
As linked in the 3 video's shown, or basically any game you can find about DBD, you will see the same happening.That way the killer can only put pressure on one survivor at a time and no one is "wasting time" searching for teammates to get healed and everyone just runs to some area that is either void of gens or full of looping spots and the killer basically has to drop the chase to keep the "map pressure". That way gives a "free heal".
Are you really sure this is an issue with healing? I'd invite you to think again. The problem that we see here is caused by the Death-Efficiency curve, which in short means that early game-stall mechanics are futile, where as late-game mechanics are drowningly strong.
The problem of Gen-rushing is caused by this same Death-Efficiency problem.Healing is only related in as so far it's something that allows survivors to do something slightly faster, but being able to do things faster is still not the problem.
That would otherwise make everything part of the problem: Toolboxes, generator-efficiency increasing perks, exhaustion perks, yadda yadda.As obvious as Toolboxes appear to be part of the Gen-Rushing problem, they really aren't. Neither is healing or any of such nature.
The only thing that Self-care does is lessen the Genrushing problem, not insofar that it would nerf survivors in their current state, but because it strengthens the power of lower-survivor count teams versus high surivivor count teams, which allows us for better tools for balance.
If low-survivor count teams cannot survive, than that means that all balance changes must revolve around the initial push, meaning that we MUST assume 4 players alive for the match to realistically progress.
It's this design philosophy that causes Gen-Rushing and as contradictory as that might sound, making self-care part of the base kit is1 step in the direction of solving the genrushing problem, which is another child of the death-efficiency problem.1 -
It's nice to dream, but I don't think any perk should be base except maybe Kindred0
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@HuN7r3sS said:
It's nice to dream, but I don't think any perk should be base except maybe KindredWe already have quite some perks that are part of the base kit right?
Perk 1: Your ability to heal teammates
Perk 2: Gain a notification when a generator is finished and locate the exit gates.
Perk 3: Gain a notification when a survivor is hit, hooked or died.
Perk 4: Your ability to vault windows
Perk 5: Your ability to throw pallets
Perk 6: Your ability to recover independently to 95% when in the Dying State
Perk 7: The ability to get off a hook with 3*4% chanceWithout free perks the game would be pretty #########.
The only difference is that they gave these perks to us for free from the start.0 -
Are you saying that game mechanics are perks? Like is hitting a perk, and carrying? These are just the mechanics that the game functions on, not perksAlwaysInAGoodShape said:@HuN7r3sS said:
It's nice to dream, but I don't think any perk should be base except maybe KindredWe already have quite some perks that are part of the base kit right?
Perk 1: Your ability to heal teammates
Perk 2: Gain a notification when a generator is finished and locate the exit gates.
Perk 3: Gain a notification when a survivor is hit, hooked or died.
Perk 4: Your ability to vault windows
Perk 5: Your ability to throw pallets
Perk 6: Your ability to recover independently to 95% when in the Dying State
Perk 7: The ability to get off a hook with 3*4% chanceWithout free perks the game would be pretty #########.
The only difference is that they gave these perks to us for free from the start.2 -
Are you saying that game mechanics are perks? Like is hitting a perk, and carrying? These are just the mechanics that the game functions on, not perks
And if Self-Care was introduced in the base kit of the survivors you would say the same about self-care.
Or taking this, this is what our conversation would've looked like:
Me: You should be able to heal your teammates without a perk.
You: Survivors shouldn't have those perks for free! THAT'S What med kits are for!Us currently:
Me: You should be able to heal yourself without a perk.
You: Survivors shouldn't have those perks for free! THAT'S what healing your teammate is for!0 -
@AlwaysInAGoodShape Pretty much, and you get points for doing so. Borrowed Time/Deep Wound isn't even base and survivors still farm each other off the hooks0
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self-care should be removed, the only way to heal yourself should be with a medkit or by allies
the ruin maybe is ok as it is or maybe needs a buff like 2 totems to be destroyed
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@HuN7r3sS said:
@AlwaysInAGoodShape Pretty much, and you get points for doing so. Borrowed Time/Deep Wound isn't even base and survivors still farm each other off the hooksThe only thing that makes you differentiate between a perk and a (fundamental) game-mechanic is how crucial you believe it is, which is subjective.
When I introduce the concept of making self-care base-game I get all types of complaints about how this would increase gen-rushing problems or make survivors OP and hitting unrewarding, yet I've never seen them attacking the idea of removing teammate based healing, which would "solve" what they believe to be their problem, but they don't consider that because it really isn't the problem.
This is what we can effectively call "Base-Game Bias".
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@BACKSTABBER said:
self-care should be removed, the only way to heal yourself should be with a medkit or by alliesthe ruin maybe is ok as it is or maybe needs a buff like 2 totems to be destroyed
Why not remove being healed by allies as well?
After all, doesn't that negate much of the damage a hit of a killer would do, making their hits less meaningful or completely negligible? Didn't that create the infinite healing problem that we(not me) tried to solve?
Med-Kits would be the solution. So why stop at self-care?
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
@BACKSTABBER said:
self-care should be removed, the only way to heal yourself should be with a medkit or by alliesthe ruin maybe is ok as it is or maybe needs a buff like 2 totems to be destroyed
Why not remove being healed by allies as well?
After all, doesn't that negate much of the damage a hit of a killer would do, making their hits less meaningful or completely negligible? Didn't that create the infinite healing problem that we(not me) tried to solve?
Med-Kits would be the solution. So why stop at self-care?
Hits are not irrelevant because Survivors can heal. Hits are irrelevant because healing effectively removes every penalty you incurred from getting hit, and you can do so an unlimited number of times. There is no penalty for losing chases over and over again on the Survivor side like there is on the Killer side.
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Hits are not irrelevant because Survivors can heal. Hits are irrelevant because healing effectively removes every penalty you incurred from getting hit, and you can do so an unlimited number of times. There is no penalty for losing chases over and over again on the Survivor side like there is on the Killer side.
So your solution is to bully low-survivor count teams, requiring 4 man teams to be buffed worsening the gen-rushing problem?
EDIT: Hit's are your tool to down a survivor. It's just that you believe it should be used for different things. There is no need for hits to be more than just that: hits.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Hits are not irrelevant because Survivors can heal. Hits are irrelevant because healing effectively removes every penalty you incurred from getting hit, and you can do so an unlimited number of times. There is no penalty for losing chases over and over again on the Survivor side like there is on the Killer side.
So your solution is to bully low-survivor count teams, requiring 4 man teams to be buffed worsening the gen-rushing problem?
EDIT: Hit's are your tool to down a survivor. It's just that you believe it should be used for different things. There is no need for hits to be more than just that: hits.
No, my solution is to actually punish Survivors who can't win chases. I want Survivors to want to avoid getting hit because hits are a threat instead of a short-term inconvenience.
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No, my solution is to actually punish Survivors who can't win chases. I want Survivors to want to avoid getting hit because hits are a threat instead of a short-term inconvenience.
Survivors who can't win chases aren't really bothered by your approach. Either by the time your effect starts to become burdensome they already rushed out of the gates with all, or if your effect becomes burden-some then some people already have died and the survivors that now deal with your effect already are in the worst possible spot.
Because there is now a tool that makes a survivor's life harder when they get hit, the game balances around that:
- You buffed solo-loopers that loop for the longest amount of time (with a gen-rush)
- You nerf more interactive gameplay and punish the noobies.
Guess where those type of design decisions take us.
Making the game better would be to make healing easier for lower-count survivors and harder for higher count survivors. No the opposite way around.
We've done the opposite for years and nobody is happy with the course of that.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Survivors who can't win chases aren't really bothered by your approach. Either by the time your effect starts to become burdensome they already rushed out of the gates with all, or if your effect becomes burden-some then some people already have died and the survivors that now deal with your effect already are in the worst possible spot.Because there is now a tool that makes a survivor's life harder when they get hit, the game balances around that:
- You buffed solo-loopers that loop for the longest amount of time (with a gen-rush)
- You nerf more interactive gameplay and punish the noobies.
Guess where those type of design decisions take us.
Making the game better would be to make healing easier for lower-count survivors and harder for higher count survivors. No the opposite way around.
We've done the opposite for years and nobody is happy with the course of that.
So you're saying this change won't affect Survivors who can't win chases (i.e.: newbies), but you also say that's a bad thing. Make up your mind, dude.
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So you're saying this change won't affect Survivors who can't win chases (i.e.: newbies), but you also say that's a bad thing. Make up your mind, dude.
What I say is that this would punish low survivor count teams predominantly, just like every terrible balance proposal ever posted of this forum.
And that if you even believe that healing is the underlying issue here, you should at least try something that screws every survivor count category over equally, let alone curved reversely.
It's very easy to detect a terrible balance idea in the game DBD is, because they always follow one rule:
They celebrate the initial push and punish the late-game disproportionally.Your idea jumps right into that.
To make some progression here:
Let me ask you, why do you think self-care-healing is a problem?There is no penalty for losing chases over and over again on the Survivor side like there is on the Killer side.
Well, you haven't lost yet have you?
Survivors have gained up to 96 seconds (3*32 being the ideal scenario where each of them is working on a generator).
Hits are worthless when they don't buy you time and any progress gained from them can be reverted an infinite number of times without any drawbacks.So the survivors can still progress the game after being hit and managing to escape. Why is this a problem?
The biggest (and only) drawbacks are the noise you make, the blood trail, and the fact that an additional hit will put you in the dying state. This can all be reversed as long as you're healed, and you can always be healed an unlimited number of times.
So there is a penalty. You are now ready to be downed.
But you could get out of it an infinite amount of times. Well, why is this a problem?Hits are not irrelevant because Survivors can heal. Hits are irrelevant because healing effectively removes every penalty you incurred from getting hit, and you can do so an unlimited number of times. There is no penalty for losing chases over and over again on the Survivor side like there is on the Killer side.
So healing-speed is too short? But there's still the infinite heal with teammate healing and they can be just as effective, even worse so with SWF.
There is no penalty? We already know the penalty. Losing the chase? The survivor hasn't lost yet.So what really is the problem?
That the killer can't down people?
That the killer doesn't have the time to down people?
That the killer should be able to win the match through just smacking them and letting them escape?
That the survivors can keep up the game after repeatedly winning against the killer?
Are we talking about something win-rate related or is it just your ideological stance on what you think hitting should be?
What really is the problem?
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@BACKSTABBER said:
self-care should be removed, the only way to heal yourself should be with a medkit or by alliesthe ruin maybe is ok as it is or maybe needs a buff like 2 totems to be destroyed
Yes since Franklins doesn't exist to remove said med kits and 4 solo players would be required to run bond and or Pharmacy. Your solo teammates are potatoes well sucks to be you in need of heals, someone wants to troll you for w/e reason well you're screwed.
Ruin 2 totems would be difficult to implement since if you cleanse the false one what are the effects and would it count as a NOED totem. Does cleansing it have any benefit to either side or will it simply act as a placebo for killers?
Since if you have either a fake one and real one or 2 totems once it's destroyed you're still sol and then the complaints will just come right back from killers. You'd basically have taken your placebo and discovered it was just that a placebo that you yourselves created.
It won't change the core issue of Ruin which is it's either cleansed really quick or it never gets touched and the good survivors just power through it.
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Yes since Franklins doesn't exist to remove said med kits and 4 solo players would be required to run bond and or Pharmacy. Your solo teammates are potatoes well sucks to be you in need of heals, someone wants to troll you for w/e reason well you're screwed.
Exactly. It would be an unhealthy form of dependancy that disproportionally rewards SWF's against Solo's.
It won't change the core issue of Ruin which is it's either cleansed really quick or it never gets touched and the good survivors just power through it.
The age old question of inconsistency and rank-differences.
I tried to tackle both with the in-built version of Ruin, with the inconsistency factor being targeted predominantly.
And the rank-differences partly as good players will have the 10 skill-checks last through their game.What do you think of it balance wise?
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I think this is a good idea and I don't really understand why you've received such a strong backlash.
The idea that SC is an unbalanced perk is crazy to me since it's horrendously inefficient compared to other healing options in the game, especially in the sloppy butcher meta. I don't even run it anymore but it makes no sense to me that a survivor can heal someone else, but not themselves.
Ruin is a complete gamble and the source of a lot of frustration. I've been in matches where I spawn next to it, roll my eyes and debate leaving it for a while to avoid a killer dc or facecamp. Your rework would help slow the game down without the terrible RNG, and the team could focus on interesting and fun killer abilities rather than game-slowing annoyances like the legion.
I'd describe the current state of both of these perks as frustrating but necessary as a patch over lacking game mechanics.
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@powerbats said:
@BACKSTABBER said:
self-care should be removed, the only way to heal yourself should be with a medkit or by alliesthe ruin maybe is ok as it is or maybe needs a buff like 2 totems to be destroyed
Yes since Franklins doesn't exist to remove said med kits and 4 solo players would be required to run bond and or Pharmacy. Your solo teammates are potatoes well sucks to be you in need of heals, someone wants to troll you for w/e reason well you're screwed.
Ruin 2 totems would be difficult to implement since if you cleanse the false one what are the effects and would it count as a NOED totem. Does cleansing it have any benefit to either side or will it simply act as a placebo for killers?
Since if you have either a fake one and real one or 2 totems once it's destroyed you're still sol and then the complaints will just come right back from killers. You'd basically have taken your placebo and discovered it was just that a placebo that you yourselves created.
It won't change the core issue of Ruin which is it's either cleansed really quick or it never gets touched and the good survivors just power through it.
FD is supposed to be the top-level perk from the Cannibal, so a powerful one that already received a nerf with special actions like chainsaw not taking effect.
Self-healing is by far the most OP skill, you want facts? +70% always equip it, so remove/rework it, we talk about balancing game, removing redundancies like using a perk all the time
Game would be more thriller if you couldn't self-heal, and yes, I only play NM
regarding ruin, not that many people use it, I dont, since it is demotivating listening to the thunder, so keep it as it is
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Self-healing is by far the most OP skill, you want facts? +70% always equip it, so remove/rework it, we talk about balancing game, removing redundancies like using a perk all the time
If you believe the perk is OP, then maybe you should consider not making it a perk?
If it is the perk then it's hard to balance around it, since balance would require making self-care mandatory or overpowered.If it's part of the base-kit, then the killer side doesn't have to be balanced around that same powerpoint in perks.
With the base strength of survivors increased (mainly later into the game as more people die), you'll be able to buff killers (as with my hex: ruin suggestion or other versions) to making them stronger against every state of survivors.Thus rewarding mechanics such as a built-in self-care allowing for better late games allows us to nerf the problematic stages of the game.
Power is relative, but how this power is distributed throughout the game is not, and this is what causes all the issues.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
Healing is only related in as so far it's something that allows survivors to do something slightly faster, but being able to do things faster is still not the problem.
That would otherwise make everything part of the problem: Toolboxes, generator-efficiency increasing perks, exhaustion perks, yadda yadda.
As obvious as Toolboxes appear to be part of the Gen-Rushing problem, they really aren't. Neither is healing or any of such nature.
The only thing that Self-care does is lessen the Genrushing problem, not insofar that it would nerf survivors in their current state, but because it strengthens the power of lower-survivor count teams versus high surivivor count teams, which allows us for better tools for balance.Self Care is a major component of gen rush, because it enables the team to spread out and everybody can do gen on his own, without the need to have mates near by to get healed.
And especially when only few gens are available every survivor can just run to some place with no gens left and force the killer to drop the chase to "pressure the map/gens" and get a free heal.1 -
I searched up the first DBD Gen-rush video I could find (with the youtube last month filter on) and i really don't see how Self-Care helped them here.
Through rethoric it may sound convincing but in practice it's not:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2m5f4UeV2wSelf-care gets stronger as people die and during a gen-rush, people generally don't. That is why Self-Care is such a genius perk and part of the solution of fixing this game; because we need to revert the mechanics that punish the lower survivor count and punish the opposite instead.
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@AlwaysInAGoodShape said:
I searched up the first DBD Gen-rush video I could find (with the youtube last month filter on) and i really don't see how Self-Care helped them here.
Through rethoric it may sound convincing but in practice it's not:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P2m5f4UeV2wSelf-care gets stronger as people die and during a gen-rush, people generally don't. That is why Self-Care is such a genius perk and part of the solution of fixing this game; because we need to revert the mechanics that punish the lower survivor count and punish the opposite instead.
Please explain where my point it wrong.
Gen rush is about spreading out and being self sufficient.0 -
I agree with the OP in terms if being more easy to get to grips with for new players. Its an important topic of quality of life which needs to come at some point in a similar form in my opinion.
Forget hex ruin, thats a whole killer perk slot which can easily be dealt with.
I think if self care was made accessible to everyone as a shared perk rather than having to get the teachable. That would be a great quality of life change making it so you aren't grinding claudette or saving med kits as you first start playing.
Your figures for your new self care re work are really wonky in my opinion. I say give claudette a new perk and let self care be a shared perk available in all bloodwebs.0 -
If Ruin were to be built in, it should be for X skill checks, not X FAILED skill checks. A mechanic should never punish you more for succeeding and reward performing poorly.
Hex skill checks already slow the game by preventing the additional progress. It should not be a tactical benefit to trigger the gen stall 10 times just to get regular skill checks.
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Example new perk for claudette:
Tranquility - Your knowledge of medicine and illicit high class substances enable you to remain in a meditative state to be one with nature.
When you are in the killers terror radius for 45 seconds gain the ability to lie on the ground for a maximum of 15/20/30 seconds.
Whilst lying down you must complete a series of skill checks 5 seconds apart. Each getting slightly more difficult.
The option to lie down is available when you hold the action whilst crouched.
You are instantly revealed to the killer for 10 seconds upon a failed skill check and you become moriable once this ability is used. Also removes the(survivor) ability to hear the killers terror radius anymore.
Idk kinda got bored typing and when off a tangent a little.0 -
@AshleyWB said:
I think if self care was made accessible to everyone as a shared perk rather than having to get the teachable. That would be a great quality of life change making it so you aren't grinding claudette or saving med kits as you first start playing.
It's always funny when survivor call something a "quality of life change".
Just getting the most used and most powerful perk in the game as a general perk instead of a teachable is a "quality of life change".
Can you really post that with a serious face?0 -
Please explain where my point it wrong.
Gen rush is about spreading out and being self sufficient.Your point is wrong on the following:
A gen-Rush, as explicitly seen in the video doesn't really require that much healing. You get hit, you get downed. During this rush 1 person will probably be hooked at 3-2 generators. If they are unhooked, they are either directly healed by their ally or decide to run away (split). They can work on a generator while injured and after there are only 2-1 gens left to do there's no more need for splitting.
So during the Gen-Rush, self-care was in its weakest state in comparison with team-heal as teammates were most available to you as there were 3 others.
Self-Care would start to take on a more important role as people started to die. Even though a heal will accomplish less, you still win a lot more time in comparison to searching for a teammate as there are now fewer on the map if at all.
So for point 2: during the Gen-Rush, self-care has the smallest difference between a normal heal during this stage of the game.SWF communcation already provides the tools to use the normal heal as efficient as self-care would be. The lack of self-care only widens this gap.
A gen-rush requires you to be a lot less self-sufficient as late-game scenario's require you to be. During the late-game, you can barely rely on a normal heal as at 2 survivors there might literally be nobody else who isn't being chased by a killer, let alone being able to find you.
Self-Sufficiency is a late-game pro, not an early game one.In the example I gave you:
The guy even ran self-care but never bothered using it. That's how irrelevant self-care is to gen-rushing. What is vital to gen rushing is pallets, and as we see he used those a lot.
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@Wolf74 I'm both a survivor and killer. When I introduce new players into dbd i get sick and tired of having to hold their hand. They should have the means to be independant and not have too many more barriers in place. And yes I think it is a great QoL change to be made. Now isn't the time however there will be a time for this.
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