Sadly Off The Record is becoming essential but also...
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Your example is inherently flawed in the sense that once again you arent taking into account that not everyone has perfect tracking, if after the hit all I can see are scratch marks going in 2 different directions and dont know which is which I have a 50% chance of chasing the right one.
You do realise you keep stacking more and more conditions onto this scenario, right? We're talking about a one-in-a-million type of scenario where all the stars align for a risky strategy that, if it doesn't pay off, practically guarantees the killer wins.
If i end up chasing the unhooker the person who tanked the hit will have to mend losing several seconds of potential progress and I dont actually lose anything because I am pressuring the other survivor towards getting a down, so in that situation I am actually gaining however many seconds of slowdown from the mend timer
Except you also lose time because you go into the on-hit cooldown while the survivor you are chasing makes distance, possibly reaching a new loop. Mending is quicker than recovering from Dying, and they can't recover from dying at all unless they use up another perk slot. DS punishes misuse significantly harder than OTR does.
If i end up chasing the bodyblocker, and get that down and then get hit with DS, I get punished and lose time, but i have no choice but to follow through because I have already commited time into that down and since I dont know where anyone is I have no real option but to continue on that person and because now I'm pissed off, because I really wasnt trying to tunnel, but got punished for it anyways, I am going to camp/tunnel that person to death.
Yes, this is the current situation, and why OTR is not fine. It works against non-tunnelling killers, unlike DS.
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The thing that you are calling a one in a million scenario, of losing the survivors after a hit and having to chose between two sets of scratch marks, that may be the case for you with your perfect tracking ability, I would say actually happens in about 1 in 5-10 matches.
DS and OTR both work against non tunnelling killers the only difference is when they work, which is a major difference. There is a major psychological difference in effect based on that principal, I am gonna use hockey as a reference, but I can probably convert it to any sport if thats not your thing.
The Game is tied In overtime and you get a penalty shot, you go in you deke the goalie, you think you have him beat and take the shot, but the goalie makes a crazy move and manages to make the save. This is OTR you didnt get the goal (the down) the game goes on.
Same situation but instead of the goalie making the save you get it past them, you get the goal, you celebrate, you won the game (chase), and the ref blows the whistle and goal doesnt count. This is DS you got the goal and it gets taken away from you.
There is a huge difference in how each situation is gonna affect you psychologically. There is a reason why you can go back for years of posts in the forum pre 6.1 where DS is complained about all the time, and yet very few post 6.1 complaining about OTR.
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The thing that you are calling a one in a million scenario, of losing the survivors after a hit and having to chose between two sets of scratch marks, that may be the case for you with your perfect tracking ability, I would say actually happens in about 1 in 5-10 matches.
You're not talking about losing a survivor, you're talking about losing a survivor, and another survivor with the exact same cosmetic set-up happening to be in that survivor's extraction route without you being able to see the survivor you were originally chasing, while the second survivor was pulled off the hook in the last 60 seconds and didn't do anything to progress the survivors' side of the game, and they're also on the same health state as the person you were chasing, and they have DS, and UB, and they haven't used the latter yet.
You are conjuring the most contrived scenario to try and proclaim DS to be a problem, ignoring that this is hard to pull off, not particularly rewarding for the survivors, and can easily go very, very wrong for them.
Same situation but instead of the goalie making the save you get it past them, you get the goal, you celebrate, you won the game (chase), and the ref blows the whistle and goal doesnt count. This is DS you got the goal and it gets taken away from you.
What you are missing is that the ref explicitly told you, five times, to wait for his signal before you can take the shot, and you took the shot immediately after he was done warning you. If you get upset that that goal gets disqualified, that's on you.
There is a huge difference in how each situation is gonna affect you psychologically. There is a reason why you can go back for years of posts in the forum pre 6.1 where DS is complained about all the time, and yet very few post 6.1 complaining about OTR.
Yeah, because for years, DS did not deactivate for conspic actions. Original DS didn't even require you to be unhooked. The DS that existed immediately before 6.1 had ONE complaint about it, which was that it felt unfair during EGC. And that was clipped off with 6.1.
It has nothing to do with any kind of 'psychological impact' of DS.
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Why should it be punished?
Why should the Killer be forced to ignore the weakest link or play sub-optimally? Survivors aren't forced to ignore a 90% gen if the Killer has 0 hooks after 2-3 Gens pop.
So why should the Killer be forced to ignore easy kills? I mean, other than 'something, something, Survivor fun'.
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It should definitely stay at 3 seconds. Having both current OTR and old DS would be awful. They’d use their OTR offensively and would still have protection if you decided to go after them again. No one likes when BT/OTR rob you out of hits.
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killer shouldnt be punished for 10 seconds because injured survivor runs back into the path a killer who wasnt even trying to go for them. DS is also used offensively, these absurd stun times would only encourage people to try and get hit and picked up which isnt tunneling then and yet the killer would still have to eat an absurd stun. No thank you.
Your not getting tunneled half the time anyways, your playing poorly.
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Okay your the one latching onto all these different conditions while I am trying to boil it down to its simplest form.
So one last time there are 2 ada's (I am using Ada because cosmetic options are limited and I tend to see alot of them in the basic outfit) in the match one on hook the other one is going for the unhook you hit them and they unhook both are injured and you cant tell which is which. This can also happen with 2 completely different survivors and a flashlight/flashbang blind so you cant see anything until after the unhook and can even still work if you look away to avoid the blind and the hook was in a tile that blocks line of sight.
So you are left with 2 sets of scratch marks heading in different directions and cant see the survivors so there is a 50/50 chance the scratch marks you choose to follow are the unhooker. My solution kicks in right here making it so there is only 1 set of scratch marks to follow and highlighting the unhooker meaning you chase the unhooker or hunt blindly and deafly for the person off the hook. This makes tunneling a concious decision that the killer is making and even if they see the survivor and decide to chase them, for 10 seconds they are faster than the killer and the killer loses even more time and ground. Plus it works even against most strong killers that can make up the ground because if they lose line of sight there is nothing to track and the survivor can still bring DS as a punishment for when the killer CHOOSES to tunnel.
Now back to without my suggestion and your basekit DS so we know 100% they have DS. There are essentially 4 different outcomes from the unhook, 2 if you know who's who, and 2 if you only have scratch marks to go off of and other factors that make it hard to tell them apart.
So lets start with the most basic one, Killer goes directly after the unhooked survivor intentionally gets the down eats the DS gets the down again and the hook and probably loses 2-3 gens for 1 hook state, I dont think anyone would disagree that this is fine there is no issue here this a textbook Ds being used for anti tunnel purposes.
There are 2 outcomes where you chase the unhooker either by choice or happenstance, depending on whether the survivor has DS. If they dont have DS they will go to heal or gen and getting your down and hook can actually occur while potentially losing 0-1 gens. If the survivor has DS 100% of the time they will more than likely follow the chase and after you down and pickup the unhooker they will interfere with you trying to get the hook sometimes not making a difference other times costing you the hook. If they cost you the hook you may slug them and still get the unhookerand get extra pressure or the unhooker may be gone you lose 2 gens and get 0 hook states or try to wait out the DS timer/eat the DS and get 1 hook state while they get progress towards the next set of gens. In this situation the killer is being punished even though they were actually avoiding tunneling.
The final outcome is you end up on the trail of the unhooked survivor by accident. Chase get the down slug them and probably lose 2- 3 gens and get 0 hook states or 1 if you eat the DS and carry through the hook regardless. In this situation your technically tunneling, even though that wasn't the Intent and get punished regardless.
Gen numbers stated are based on getting first hook before any gens are completed.
As to the penalty shot analogy that obviously missed its mark because if you touched the puck before the ref signalled with his whistle you would get stopped long before you skated down the ice to a postion where you would be shooting the puck. To be more specific with that analogy i was thinking more like you shoot the puck into the net and it hits a bar in the net whch is a goal, but the ref thinks it hit one of the outer bars and calls it not a goal, and Instant replay obviously not being available.
There were still plenty of complaints being made about Ds specifically because the conspicuous action change did nothing to any of the situations I outlined above. Those situations got even more common, because working on a gen would deactivate DS it was more commonly used to harass the killer so the 2 survivors not there could work on gens.
Again you are obviously a much better killer than me because these things werent an issue for you, but DS was the main reason I quit playing killer before Nemesis came out until just before the prestige update came out, and that was just to get as many bloodpoints as possible, and then only really started playing killer again after the perk rework.
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Because you are playing a game with others and everyone is entitled to play the game and have a good experience.
Just being bad at the game is no excuse to deny someone the ability to even play the game by constantly tunnelling them off hook and that should be punished harshly. Being bad at the game is no excuse for tunnelling off hook
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It depends, because sometimes you are only bad at the game because the survivors it throws at you are usually outside your skill level, scummy tactics are all you have to keep up. As an example right now for me the incentve is on 100% killer bonus and when i queue up I will probably have 8 of 10 games against survivors at a much higher skill level than me and if I get 3 or 4 sweaty matches in a row it can be hard to switch gears when I get a lower/even skilled team.
That isnt the case for everyone all the time obviously, but I know for me when matchmaking screws me over I have to do everything in my power to re-even the odds to make it a fair match.
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Sure, you obviously have to adjust your aggressiveness to each match and I do exactly this.
But what I am seeing is clearly not this, instead I see killers who just relentlessly pursue one person where anyone with a brain would drop chase... of course most times you will eventually catch any survivor as killer and once they do they hard camp that hook and then hard tunnel them off hook repeatedly until they are dead. It doesn't matter if that chase was stupidly long as their intention is to tunnel that person so hard they cannot play the game at all.
People seem to forget nobody is playing this game under duress and stupid comments like "why should I care about others fun?" show a supremely selfish and ignorant attitude towards other people, let alone a complete lack of any empathy. If you make the game miserable for others, they will not want to play normal matches with you and they will choose to DC or just exit on first hook.
This attitude also hurts the game in the bigger picture as when we allow normalising of ruining matches for others so they cant play (relentlessly tunnelling off hook), these people will eventually just leave DBD altogether as nobody wants to be subjected to this over and over.
Of course we can never compensate for the sociopaths in society who have zero empathy and just want to watch the world burn. But we sure can make sure if they choose to intentionally ruin the fun for others, they pay a massive price for it
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Oh, and if a Survivor runs at you with DS active, they are also forcing you to pick them up?
In regards of Map Pressure, it is the same if you slug them or hook them... 1 Survivor less on a Gen.
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but per the survivor rulebook we arent supposed to "slug" them.
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Today I played nearly all day as Lisa, Claire and Feng and every single match I was tunneled out at the start. I don't play toxic, or do anything mean. I was just in a Gen.
I use OTR and it didn't help at all. This is getting ridiculous for me and it makes me want to stop playing because being tunneled out of every match at the start is just cringe.
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This is exactly what happens to me in every. single. match.
I've had team mates try to save me, help, do what they can but killer ignores them for me from the start of the match. Again, I'm not toxic in any way, I don't get it.
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The people who get tunnelled out first every match must be really unlucky, or full of hyperbole.
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That everyone includes the Killer. Who, apparently, needs a laundry list of things they shouldn't do so 'everyone' has fun, no matter how hard it makes the game for them (and how multiple Survivors being the same or just plain bad luck on scratch marks/auras can lead you to the same person anyway).
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Yes and it feels horrible doesn't it?
This is why I absolutely refuse to do this to others - I know how it feels and it makes for miserable matches. My only exceptions are if someone wants to be toxic and tea bag me, spam vault to annoy me and generally be a jerk then I will do all I can to take them out fast.
Sadly with some people it doesn't matter if you are toxic or not, they will just subject you to a miserable experience because they can and this is what myself and many others want to see heavily penalised to the point it isn't worth doing.
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Sure, there are a ridiculous set of demands some survivors have (remember I play a lot of killer too) and their definitions of 'camping' and 'tunnelling' are patently absurd. Nobody rational is going to consider say an unlucky survivor who keeps running into you or their team mates hiding after unhook so you see nobody but the unhooked survivor as 'tunnelling' in the sense we mean.
Lets not play a semantics game, we all know exactly the tactics I am talking about here.
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Okay your the one latching onto all these different conditions while I am trying to boil it down to its simplest form.
That's the point. If you require this many conditions to set up the scenario you describe, it's not 'boiled down to its simplest form'.
This in contrast with 'Person who was unhooked in the last 60 seconds bodyblocks the killer', which is all that is required to use OTR offensively.
There were still plenty of complaints being made about Ds specifically because the conspicuous action change did nothing to any of the situations I outlined above.
No, there weren't. I was around during that time and a frequenter of the forums. Nobody complained about getting duplicate survivors mixed up and getting hit with DS as a result. The only complaint DS got was that it was unfair when applied during the dash for the exit, as it felt like a free escape and a denial of the killer's only option.
Those situations got even more common, because working on a gen would deactivate DS it was more commonly used to harass the killer so the 2 survivors not there could work on gens.
No, it wasn't. Because it's an incredibly ineffective strategy that wastes as much of the survivors' time, or more.
Why am I not surprised to see the 'I am bad, therefor it's okay for me to tunnel' argument coming from you?
It depends, because sometimes you are only bad at the game because the survivors it throws at you are usually outside your skill level, scummy tactics are all you have to keep up.
Did you perhaps consider that you are messing up your MMR rating by getting kills you aren't supposed to get by using blatantly overpowered tactics as crutches?
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"Did you perhaps consider that you are messing up your MMR rating by getting kills you aren't supposed to get by using blatantly overpowered tactics as crutches?"No, because when there is a large enough deficiency on either side it throws MMR out the window in favor of making matches happen which is often when playing killer fits my availability.
I know this because there is a major difference in matchmaking depending on when I play. I can play from 7pm to around 11pm my local time and I will have mostly fine matchmaking with no issues but later at night when the killer pool is smaller and there are more SWF running around, I rarely get properly matched to my skill. This is further evidenced in the fact that I can play a killer that I know has low MMR and get super strong opponents and then switch to a killer that I have higher MMR with and still get easier opponents.
Also killer strength and build arent factored into matchmaking, and since I Alternate killers from match to match (Excluding Nurse and Trickster because they are borderline Unplayable) , and half of my killers have no addons from prestiging them before the update to get more perks on my Killers, and I typically run builds I like instead of running 4 slowdown/regression perks every game because I find that boring, and I can only dodge a few lobbies before I get bored and just take a match I know is outside my MMR.
"No, there weren't. I was around during that time and a frequenter of the forums. Nobody complained about getting duplicate survivors mixed up and getting hit with DS as a result. The only complaint DS got was that it was unfair when applied during the dash for the exit, as it felt like a free escape and a denial of the killer's only option."Well thats a funny statement, proven almost completely wrong with a 5 min search of the forums between the conspicuous action change and 6.1 patch,. There are hundreds of posts of back and forth, survivors complaining about ds being too weak and not running it and more tunneling in matches with no Obsession, Killer complaints about exactly the kind of situations I describe in my post with bodyblocking and flashlight/pallet save immunity, locker ds, and yes ds in endgame which you pointed out and I didn't dispute
"This in contrast with 'Person who was unhooked in the last 60 seconds bodyblocks the killer', which is all that is required to use OTR offensively."You keep bringing up OTR for no reason and it is completely irrelevant to the actual point of the conversation which is your suggestion of basekit DS. OTR isnt and has never been an issue as far as I'm concerned which I've stated multiple times.
No, it wasn't. Because it's an incredibly ineffective strategy that wastes as much of the survivors' time, or more.It actually isnt, killers gain much less pressure from a Slug with DS than from a hook state, and thats not even counting if they also have unbreakable lowering the pressure even more. If survivors are able to deny 3 hook attempts Instead of having 2-3 survivors on death hook they maybe have 1 if they are lucky, but more than likely none and the chances of the killer winning that match drops significantly, especially because they can rotate and have 2 people pretty much always on gens.
"That's the point. If you require this many conditions to set up the scenario you describe, it's not 'boiled down to its simplest form'."Frankly since all you wanna do is cherry pick one statement and ignore the fact that I wrote up a whole section actually boiling it down to its simplest form, where I specifically put forth basic conditions to keep it seperate from other posts, on how DS can be used offensively in a multitude of ways that still work to this day and how much that can cost the killer, honestly I'm done with you.
I have acknowledged that your superior ability to play the game means you have a differerent experience than my low level skill set allows me to have, and as condescending as you are being, you cant invalidate my experience and that of others who have posted similar complaints in other discussions just because your better than me at a video game. Adieu et bonne nuit.
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Bad excuse. By that logic, I can tell people not to pick Widowmaker in Overwatch 2 because being sniped without being able to shoot back ruins my experience. Your excuse is 'something, something, what about my fun?'.
Your entitled to play the game within the rules of the game.
You're entitled to play a game without people cheating or insulting or threatening you.
You are Not entitled to tell your opponent they can't kill you because you don't want to lose yet.
You're not entitled to demand your opponent stop trying to win because losing makes you sad.
You are not entitled to play the game for an arbitrary length of time.
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See you can say that all you want but at the end of the day you are playing against other humans and if you don't consider how you interact with them, don't complain at all if they decide they do not want to stay in that match with you and you can't get a normal game.
I am not actually telling you how to play, what I am proposing is that people who do engage in very unfun tactics that ruin the game for others should suffer heavy penalties for engaging in those tactics. The game currently makes it far too easy for people to ruin matches for others and this needs to be changed.
Anyone who has been repeatedly tunnelled out of the game knows how much this ruins the experience, so if people are aware of the misery their tactics inflict on others and still do it, then the devs need to step in and create deterrents.
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'Unfun' is subjective. On top to that; no they should not be punished because they made you sad. To work back around to my Overwatch statement; That would be like me saying 'Anyone playing Widowmaker should be punished because sniping is an unfun tactic for me. I don't get to play if I'm sniped'.
You are, 100%, telling people how to play. You are saying Killers need to be punished or have their hands tied with mechanics that force them to play sub-optimally because you, personally, don't like tunneling. That is telling people they can't tunnel because of your subjective opinion. That is telling people how to play.
I mean, how DARE your opponent remove the weakest link to slow down gen speeds! Don't they know that Survivors don't like being removed from the game!? Why don't the devs just remove killing, because Survivors want to have FUN, and who cares if the Killer is not having fun by being forced to play catch-up the entire match because Survivors don't want to bumped out! Only Survivor fun matters!
If you can't accept your opponent trying to win within the rules of the game; Don't play PvP games. They're clearly not your cup of tea if you need to demand the devs invent punishments and rules to control how your opponent plays to make you happy. It's like saying 'People who play Eddie Gordo in Tekken are button mashers. This is not fun and is skillless. People who play Eddie Gordo should be blocked from playing ranked. I'm not trying to tell people how to play, but they are ruining the fun for others.'
News flash: Losing is not as fun as winning. Making punishments based on 'what about MY fun?' is nothing more than saying 'Make it easier for me to win/Make it harder for my opponent to win.'
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Except being tunnelled out of the game is objectively unfun, this isn't even a debate at this point.
The problem is the game makes this a viable tactic and those who lack skill or have no empathy for the other side can do this without any penalty. It really is as simple as that.
I play a lot of killer and I never tunnel or camp yet I still win 90% of my matches, so I don't buy these tales of woe from people who try to justify knowingly making the match miserable for others to suit themselves.
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No, it's not 'as simple as that' because you're ignoring that you're asking the Killer to be punished for playing optimally & trying to win. You're literally making the game harder for one side based on the whining of their opponents.
You're boiling it down to 'Survivors not having fun, so change it' while ignoring the Killer aspect and how the Killer is ALSO trying to win. The complaint is 'Survivor not having fun, so make the game harder for Killers. No one cares about their fun.'
I also don't care what you play or how. How you play has no bearing on how others play, and the game should not be balanced around how you play, or how you think every other Killer should play.
I will say it again, since people seem to ignore this: Saying "Punish Killers for the vague accusation of 'tunneling'." is nothing more than saying "Make it harder for Killers to win by imposing rules based on Survivor's subjective ideas of 'fun."
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Except you are conducting yourself in an unnecessary way that ruins the experience for your opponent.
The fact you would even attempt to argue that being tunnelled out of the game is not objectively unfun shows a bad faith argument. I mean, are you suggesting people subjectively enjoy being tunnelled out of the game lmao?!
The problem is people will conduct themselves in ways that ruin the experience for others and as killer you are in a unique position to do this where your opponent is powerless to do anything about it. This needs to be addressed and clearly there is a demand for more deterrents for tunnelling people out of the game.
You have a complete disregard for the other humans in the game you are playing. You can have no empathy but the game should not facilitate or even reward this. Period.
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Once again; you're ignoring everything to claim the ONLY reason people tunnel is to 'ruin fun' and call it 'unnecessary'.
Why is it people whining about tunneling cannot admit that the Killer is PLAYING TO WIN, just like Survivors? Oh, right; because it invalidates their entire 'Tunneling is unnecessary & only trolls do it' argument.
What you fail to realize, or ignore to make your own bad faith argument, is that Killers are ALSO human beings who want to have fun & want to win. But apparently Survivor fun comes first, so Killers should be forced to stop doing anything Survivors don't like (Like tunneling, slugging, and camping).
Why don't we take the logic one step further? Survivors don't like Doctor. Or Nurse. Or Legion. They also don't like NoED and other 'crutch' perks and Killers. So why not let Survivors pick who the Killer uses & what perks they use? I mean, since Survivor 'fun' is so paramount that Killers need player agency removed in-match by punishing them for trying to win...sorry, for 'tunneling'.
So why not just let Survivors pick who the Killer can USE, since they're already deciding they are the authority in what the Killer can DO?
Bet that would make all the Survivors happy. They'd finally have their 'fun'.
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Okay so you are not understanding and clearly come from a position of zero empathy for others.
To reiterate in my final response - as killer you are in a position you can deny your opponent the ability to play the game, this is not necessary as I win most of my matches not resorting to these tactics. You are excusing disregard for others as if you have no alternative but this is just excusing either a lack of skill, a lack of empathy, or both.
Survivors are defenceless against this, so the game should make it so tunnelling people out of the game is so detrimental it isn't worth doing.
You don't have to do this to win, you just choose to.
Anyway, you clearly do not understand this so there is little point replying further. However clearly the community has had enough and the declining survivor numbers in the queue suggest something drastically needs to change. So hopefully you will be forced to play in an empathetic way, even if you lack any empathy.
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Give killers a basekit mini BBQ that shows one survivor AND give them a speedboost as long as they move in the general direction of that survivor and aren't in any chase. The beauty of the old BBQ was that everyone had it equipped for the BP bonus and, as if by accident, the main portion of its effect showed killers all kinds of opportunities and thus peeled them away from the hook.
The speed boost would be needed to sweeten the deal of chasing after some survivor, and to give non-mobility M1 killers an opportunity to do so without shooting themselves in the foot.
In the same stroke, BHVR could do something to punish tunneling, like if you tunnel someone and try to hook them within 45s of them getting off the hook there is a 33% chance that The Entity itself sabotages a hook. Not totally invalidating it, but enough to make going for someone else the correct choice.
Of the carrot and the whip, the first one is the more effective one, and people will react much more favorable to it, while the whip will often make them stubbornly stay in their old ways, just to "stick it to them!".
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Okay so you are not understanding and clearly come from a position of zero empathy for others.Ad hominem. I understand fine. You just don't want to be forced to think about the Killer's fun. Your mindset is 'Survivor's first, and screw Killers'.
"as killer you are in a position you can deny your opponent the ability to play the game"That's how Killers win. By removing Survivors. If this is a shock 6+ years into the game; I worry about you.
"this is not necessary as I win most of my matches not resorting to these tactics."Good for you. You're not everyone.
Survivors are defenceless against this, so the game should make it so tunnelling people out of the game is so detrimental it isn't worth doing.Translation: Killers should have harder matches because Survivors don't like losing.
You don't have to do this to win, you just choose to.Survivors don't have to rush gens as fast as possible; They can find bones. Yet NoED is vilified for taking them off gens. WEIRD how the burden for Survivor fun is literally the Killer's responsibility no matter what.
however clearly the community has had enough and the declining survivor numbers in the queue suggest something drastically needs to changeAh yes, the old 'Survivors ain't happy, so the game is dying' doom-screaming. Weird how, when Killers claimed the game was dying because of DS and the like, they were called out.
But when SURVIVORS screech because Killers are just trying to win; it's proof the game is dying and Killers need to be punched in the mouth with balance changes that literally control how they can play to make Survivors happy.
Double standards.
So hopefully you will be forced to play in an empathetic way, even if you lack any empathy.More ad hominem responses. It's not that I lack empathy, it's that I don't expect my opponent to play badly to make me happy. Because I'm aware that I am not entitled to a certain amount of 'fun' before I lose.
You could say I'm empathizing with my opponents drive to win in a PvP game, so long as they are not cheating.
But, at the risk of you screaming even more about my 'lack of empathy'; MY OPPONENT IS NOT RESPONSIBLE FOR MY FUN.
- Killers don't need to ignore me if I'm the easy target.
- Survivors don't need to ignore gens if I don't have any kills.
But it's always 'Killers should be punished for tunneling' and never 'Survivors should be punished for rushing gens'. Which means it's a dishonest argument that is actually demanding Killers stop trying to win if it makes Survivors sad 😥.
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I...made an entire post, then edited it to fix some typos, and it disappeared?
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We believe it's due to disrespect
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Yeah I am all for ideas like this.
Contrary to how it may appear to some, I am not here to just 'stick it' to killers, I just want to see the game be less of a miserable experience than it is at present.
I think there needs to be a big deterrent to tunnelling people out of the game but I am totally for a carrot and stick approach.
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With all due respect, if it was in response to me I was not going to read it anyway. I think we know where the other stands so at this point it is probably better to just agree to disagree and leave it at that
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There was nothing disrespectful in it. I went over every point made without so much as a harsh word.
Edit: And the post is back. Guess I hit some sort of timer due to editing repeatedly to fix errors. My B.
Post edited by Stabby_Widdershins on0 -
While we would like something like this, we might want to add something that encourages safer saves or at least take agro for the unhooked. Most times when we tunnel, it's due to unhooking in my tr (or line of sight) then leaving them to our lack of mercy. True we CAN go for the unhooker who ran to super safe zone, but we want the easy prey who ran to the dead zone injured.
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I think most reasonable people will understand a killer having little option when someone unhooks in their TR then stealths away to leave the poor sod who just got unhooked to their fate.
But of course what we are seeing becoming very common is killers who will stay by the hook and go out of their way to target the person who just got off hook, even if there is an injured and viable target in the person who unhooked.
All that aside, I certainly don't want to see any solution that can be abused or used offensively as DS from 2 reworks back was
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We get that and something does need to address that (hopefully without being abused)
What I think we were trying to say is that there needs to also be a "carrot" (second me wants a "stick") for survivors to not put each other in these kinds of situations.
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This is also a problem that a lot of the playerbase fail to gasp: if you do an unsafe unhooking, then you need to stay and take off the heat of the unhooked survivor. If you just vault away and disappear, well, then I only have one target, ie the poor sod you just unhooked. Thats not tunneling, thats "having only one option"
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Tell that to everyone who calls us tunneler XD
But we corrected ourselves, we want a carrot stick for survivors as to get them to not be... stupid for lack of better terms.
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In the same stroke, BHVR could do something to punish tunneling, like if you tunnel someone and try to hook them within 45s of them getting off the hook there is a 33% chance that The Entity itself sabotages a hook. Not totally invalidating it, but enough to make going for someone else the correct choice.- And...SWFs would start bringing the same cosmetics in order to get free Sabos.
- And what happens if the Killer just happens to find the same Survivor? It happens to me ALLOT; I don't tunnel, but sometimes a Survivor just has bad luck. Should I be punished, again, for trying to win, just because I found the same guy?
Once again; Why should Killers be punished AT ALL for trying to win just because Survivors have this deep-seated need to control HOW Killers win?
I'll put it another way:
If Survivors are not punished for playing gens effectively; Why should Killers be punished for killing effectively?
You can't demand one side get a middle finger to their gameplay just because some people don't understand that, in a PvP game, one side winning means the other side loses.
All 'Punish camping' boils down to is 'Punish Killers for playing too well because Survivor fun is more important.'
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Lets put it this way. If efficient causes unfun for survivors, there's less prey. If there's less prey, then killers will either have to switch to survivor or have no prey. If they switch and become fed up with unfun efficient play, they bail and the cycle repeats until death of game. If there's no prey we assume you know what happens.
True people should understand that it's a PvP game and can't dictate the other side, but some things NEED to be addressed for the sake of health and fun of the game.
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Lets put it this way. If efficient causes unfun for survivors, there's less prey. If there's less prey, then killers will either have to switch to survivor or have no prey. If they switch and become fed up with unfun efficient play, they bail and the cycle repeats until death of game. If there's no prey we assume you know what happens.Let's put it this way; You start controlling how a Killer can win based on something subjective like 'fun', then there will be less Killers. If there's less Killers, then Survivors will either have to switch to Killer or have no matches. If they switch and become fed up with unfun, inefficient play, they bail and the cycle repeats until the death of the game. If there's no Killers, we assume you know what happens.
Works both ways. If Killers start losing because the game literally forces them to spread out kills while Survivors can genrush like cheetahs on crack, thereby preventing there from being ENOUGH TIME to 3-hook everyone (which, BTW, against a skilled Survivor team; It's literally impossible to 3 hook everyone & still get more than 1 or 2 kills), then they will stop playing because there's NO POINT in playing a game where they can't play their hardest, and then EDC is filled with insults because they lost.
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Yet which one is currently more prevalent? We have seen a total of 1 swat gen rush vs 1/2 the killers we've faced tunneling a poor fool despite trying to take agro (can't take agro better than literally standing in a doorway at lery's). In addition, you literally need a whole build on multiple survivors too gen rush while as killer to tunnel...you follow a single person till they die. No real necessary parts except being better than that specific survivor.
Both need addressed but you seem dead set on not seeing the survivor side.
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I see both sides, unlike people who's suggestions are 'Make the game FORCE the Killer to play badly' or 'Add something Survivors can abuse'.
Once more, I will ask: Why is it OK for Survivors to play optimally, but Killers playing optimally is a cardinal sin?
It's a double standard. Survivors are allowed to tryhard, but Killers tryharding is evil and 'unfun'.
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First playing "optimally" was never a sin, the effect it causes is.
Second when survivors kept try being try hards things did change. No more instant repair parts, no instant heals, true infinite loops gone (admittedly this might be for overall health but..). Unfun things changed. Just because it's back to the killers turn doesn't mean it's always at killer. At best it's just the most vocal.
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The problems is that that 'effect' is literally the Killer's win condition.
Survivors are complaining that the Killer's attempts to win should backseat to their 100% subjective and vague 'fun'. And it's been like this for more than 5 years:
- Tunneling? Unfun; fix it for 'the health of the game'.
- Slugging? Unfun; fix it for 'the health of the game'.
- Camping? Unfun; fix it for 'the health of the game'.
If Survivors had their way; Killers would never be able to win, because losing is 'unfun'.
As it is; I can't play a single match without Survivors putting me on blast for 'crutch perks' or 'tryhard tactics' because they genuinely believe their fun is more important than mine or my ability to try to win, and so they believe I was 'toxic first' just for winning in a way they don't approve of.
Survivors need to get it through their heads that BOTH SIDES are human beings. And if Survivors are not required to stop doing gens just because the Killer has 0 hooks/kills, then Killers are not required to stop going after the weakest link just because Survivors don't like being knocked out of the game.
I'm honestly sick of the double standard. If I kill to fast? Insults. Threats. I'm a 'tryhard'. This includes if I don't give hatch. Yes; I'm evil if I don't let someone go, because Survivors are so entitled that they believe they deserve a free escape for no reason other than 'Because I'm Survivor'.
But if Killers talk about genrush (To use the phrase. Real genrushing does not exist. It's just Survivors playing well), or not having any hooks or kills as 3 gens pop? 'Lol, noob KIller' 'git gud' and 'It's not our responsibility to give you kills'.
So how come it's the Killer's responsibility to make sure Survivors have fun, up to and including giving free hatch, but Survivors are not responsible for Killers having fun? 🤔
How come people think 'Take player agency away from Killers' or 'Add a mechanic Survivors can abuse' is valid for 'Survivor fun'? Can we demand Survivors be forced to fail skillchecks if they hit too many in a row? I mean, if Killers should be punished for 'tunneling' their objective (kills), then Survivors should be punished for 'tunneling' their objective (gens). Fair is fair.
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It's only good if you're good looper and palying agains't m1 killer. And in fact then you don't even need it so it's pretty useless. For casual players it does not do anything.
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Your going for generals when it's the specifics that matter.
Tunnel at the start and not letting up no matter what vs targeting that one when other appealing options are available (example of us in the doorway at lery's, hit us we're just as injured and you've already wasted time just trying to pass us)
Camping at endgame vs camping the first hook while 3+ gens need done. Pretty pointless and is unfun and won't get a "meaningful" victory (aka actually playing) and often won't get any victory except spiteful ones.
Slugging cause there's flashlights in the open vs hunting and slugging everyone for spite. One reasonable, one is just being a ####.
As for the things said at end game, ignore it. People do as people will (hence why we are still futiley trying to get a point across and may be deviating now that we're thinking about it) expecting anything is pointless. (Apologies if this is offensive but it sounds like your sick of the toxic community more than the topic)
No one is responsible for fun except the devs. Your free to keep being "efficient" but understand that it gonna cause what we said above, just as a toxic community will deter killers from playing. Playing well isn't bad but playing and ruining people's fun (which, on a game ment to be fun) is probably a no no.
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This was my suggestion with one small edit added that is lost in the early part of the thread.
A much more fair and balanced way to try and reduce tunnelling is to simply add more defensiveness to the basekit borrowed time.First off double the haste to 20% that gives you 0.2 m/s faster than a 4.6 killer that can be used to loop/get away.(Edit: After some further thought on this, the haste effect should scale with the number of gens left in the match.)5 gens 20% 4.8 m/s
4 gens 18% 4.72 m/s
3 gens 16% 4.67 m/s
2 gens 14% 4.57 m/s
1 gen 12% 4.48 m/s
0 gens 10% 4.4 m/s
This change gears it more towards tunneling in the early game.
Second for those 10 seconds, block aura reading of unhooked survivor, no blood or scratch marks, quick and quiet with no cooldown, 100% reduction in pain sounds and breathing. This litany of defensive boosts eliminates all but visual tracking of the unhooked survivors giving tons of options for breaking line of sight and losing the killer.Third and finally the killer gains killer instinct on the unhooking survivor and have all but the unhooked survivors aura shown for 5 seconds, incentivizing the unhooker and any other survivor as a target especially with the difficulty of tracking the unhooked survivor.I think this fits both the carrot and stick idea and wouldnt really be abuseable offensively in any real way like DS was.
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