This won't be last nerf for the Nurse
I still think she is the very best killer in the game, nothing comes close to her. Like SupaAlf still gonna win 500+ games in a row with 3K-4K against top tier squads on comms (the only time he lost when played in tournament rules which restricted his playstyle)
So it's only matter of time before she will be redesigned, and her power taken away
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Biggest complain people have, is that they can´t run her in circles like other killers. If they take that away from her, then shes a completely different killer.
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It's good and much needed changes. The best changes are the nerf to her range addons and making her blink attacks special attacks. The special attack change heavily nerfs a playstyle with certain perks but at the same time, Nurses can just use 4 slowdown perks and probably do just as good overall regardless. Still a good change though!
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I guarantee it wont be the last nerf as this wont change much for the actual good players who don't rely on broken addons and OP perk builds over raw skill.
However I do agree with others that we will likely see the crutch players switch to full slowdown builds instead so that inevitable Eruption nerf is going to be more urgent than ever
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Honestly, I don't think so. The changes to her attack type means that most of her strongest builds are gone, ditto her addons.
Actual good players...ugh.
Okay, so. Part of being an 'actually good player' is knowing how to build right. Being a good player doesn't mean you run meme builds.
Go and watch the community cup - some of the best players in the world, with some of the strongest builds in the world. Killers ran Eruption and anything else nasty they could, slugged, camped, tunneled their hearts out.
Survivor squads had heavy restrictions on what they could bring.
Killers still had a rough time.
If they're going to nerf Eruption, they are going to have to rework it so that it stays viable when facing strong SWFs. But let's be honest here - whatever the killer meta is, it's going to get QQ'd about until it gets nerfed. Because when someone loses, it's way easier to say 'oh the killer did/used x and if they hadn't I'd have won' than 'oh, if we hadn't make x mistakes we would have won'.
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You are talking about tournaments, not the average solo queue or even SWF casual that makes up the majority of the player base @StarLost and balancing the game for the top 0.01% of players is the fastest way to kill it.
If you are actually trying excuse Eruption as it is, with all due respect I feel justified to dismiss your opinion outright as Eruption is objectively completely and utterly broken. Apologies in advance if that is not what you are implying here
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Killer also couldn't use the best addons...
So I don't think that tournaments about real game balance, its an environment which don't exist in real games
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I just wish they understand that the chance they play against the sweat 4men SWF is lower than a mid MMR survivor play against a god Nurse.
Bring in sweat 4men SWF as the reason why Devs should buff Killer so they can win against those SWF effortless. Is the same as me asking Devs to remove blink from Nurse so I can beat SupaAlf. Which both are stupid.
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I'm saying that Eruption isn't the automatic win people are claiming it is, with the CC being the best example I can easily refer people to.
I'm probably a mid MMR killer (maybe mid-high on Hag, Ghosty, Artist and a few others) and I face sweaty SWFs sometimes. Because 'sweaty' is relative.
I mean, lets look at 3 memorable matches from the Christmas event.
Ghostface game on The Game (offering) - ran into a 4man running 'destroy all the gens' builds. Simply couldn't kill them fast enough, and Surge didn't cut it. Game was done in...about 5 minutes, with another two where I tried to defend the gates. Had I been running a stronger build, I might have had time to make something happen.
Demo game on Garden of Joy (offering) - ran into a 3man of comp players. Similar Hyperfocus/Fogwise/BNP/PTS build. Absolutely destroyed me, partially because I went in with a flan/give everyone a chance to get BP/fun build (it was Christmas Eve). They heavily abused the pseudo-infinite in the main structure and were BM as all hell in postgame.
Plague game on Eyrie - another 4man, similar builds. About 6 minutes in, all the gens were done - they didn't even bother to cleanse or do Plaything totems (I was running Penti) and barely even tried to loop me. Just two-to-a-gen, always on, and by the time I hooked someone a gen had popped. Once again, BM.
Tell me - with the possibility of running into this sort of team, why shouldn't killers bring their strongest options?
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Because Eruption cause 27sec Gen lost against SWF with a big setup will not help to win.
Where Solo it can apply 120sec Gen lost surely the most powerful Slowdown perk ever exist.
After all, its still just of 4 slowdown perk.
If you compare to Grim Embrace where requires 4 hooks to lock all Gens for 40sec. Even if buff the perk to require 1 hook to block 40sec, it still far weaker than Eruption where the possibly to remove 120sec Gen multiple times.
Eruption should be changed to close the gap between Swf & Solo. Blocking 25sec (will cause 34sec Gen lost instead of 40sec because the 6sec regression removed) is still powerful, while it both effect Solo & swf equally.
Killers who defense Eruption because its really weak against Swf isnt the reason, the true reason behind is to bully Solo.
Tell me - with the possibility of running into this sort of team, why shouldn't killers bring their strongest options?
You're asking survivors to run meta. Why should I use meme build when I may play against 4 slowdown tunnelers? The answer is accepting that I should have 40% escape rate, then die and drop MMR. Do you accept your 60% kill rate? Or 90% kill rate to play against survivors who have 90% escape rate?
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balancing the game for the top 0.01% of players is the fastest way to kill it.
Why though? Every single competitive pvp game is balanced around to top ranks. Not the bronze players.
So why would that kill the game?
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Eh...
I'd say that if GE worked on one hook, it would be far, far stronger than Eruption.
The key word is 'potential'. Eruption is a win-more perk. If you're struggling to get regular downs, it's useless. Which is why I don't run it - it tends to turn games I was already going to win into stomps, but seldom turns around games against tough SWFs.
Also - what the hell?
No.
No no no no no.
You don't get to claim that killers run Eruption because they want to stomp solos - that's basically inferring that all killer players are malicious jerks who are just out to spoil the game for others.
Hell, I play both roles and it's substantially more likely that a winning survivor team is going to be BM than the killer - if anything, killers are expected to be merciful to the last survivor (I can't remember the last time a survivor gave me a mercy kill) and get called names if they aren't.
Killers run strong perks because if they don't run strong perks, and get thrown up against a strong opponent they lose.
Regarding your response to me directly...huh?
- I didn't ask survivors to run meta. I'm trying to explain why killers run meta.
- Survivors have far, far more reliable perks than killers do. Honestly, outside of info perks (which get redundant if you bring too many) and regression, what universally good perks do killers have?
- How are you facing 4 killers?
- That 60% kill rate stat is deeply flawed. I think I explained this in another thread, but let me do a cliffnotes version: SWF has a 15% higher escape rate than solos do. Add on...let's be conservative and say 5% on top of that from solo queue suicides/AFKs (maybe a third of my games have a quitter), and that 60% becomes 40%.
- Again, killers do not have the option not to play against SWF. Survivors have the option to play as a SWF at any time. BHVR have emphatically said that they'll never balance SWF differently, or give SWFs a higher MMR. So the only option is to balance around SWF.
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DBD is a casual party game and an asymmetrical one at that. It can never be truly balance by its inherent nature and DBD does not have a largely competitive player base as you would have in say COD or PUBG or whatever.
Its a casual game with a mostly casual low skill player base and the majority of that player base are unskilled survivors.
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Kind of disagree, if you check some of the strongest Nurse players like SupaAlf, you'll find most of them run Starstruck + Range + Recharge, all of which are nerfed.
Nurse isn't really fond of kicking gens due to her slow movespeed, but maybe you're right. I hope we'll get an Eruption change soon.
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Yeah but SupaAlf was doing that specifically for a win streak and even he acknowledged it was a broken combo carrying him. Not that Alf isn't a top tier Nurse player as clearly he is but he piled on the OP BS to ensure his winstreak wasn't at risk.
I have already seen Nurses running double recharge/range builds with Eruption lol... sure good Nurses don't kick gens or break pallets for that matter and likely still wont
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This is wrong. Casuals make up the majority in every game. Those games still balance around the highest level of play. It’s only here on the DBD forum that performing mental gymnastics to say that casuals should be the point of balance is accepted. Aside from that, you seem to be saying that because comp SWF is a small percentage of games, that it is acceptable for the killer to get destroyed by those teams. This is also wrong. The killer should never feel like a match is impossible to win. If they do, the game isn’t worth playing.
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No, I did not say anything of the sort - so what I seem to be saying to you is not what I am saying.
I don't think any Nurse main with some skill feels like a match is impossible to win, if they do they are not very good with Nurse. I have been on the PTB too and Nurse is still fine
DBD may be a PVP game but it is not inherently a true 'competitive' game and can never be by the very nature of asymmetrical games.
It has nothing to do with mental gymnastics, it is just a fact that the majority of the DBD player base are unskilled survivors and if you balance for the top minority the unskilled causal majority will not play as the game will be completely inaccessible to them.
You are mistaking this as me saying this as my personal preference; the fact is BHVR have to balance the game this way or the game will die. You don't market and balance for the top 0.1% - this is just plain bad business and BHVR will never do this. Not accepting this fact will set you up for a lot of disappointment
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No other game balances that away, including games that have sold far better than DBD. You have no evidence other than repeating the echo chamber on this forum.
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Out of those games, which of those is like dbd? (An asymmetrical 1 v 4{sorta} )
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Dude, I would personally like it to be balanced around higher level play but I know this should not and will not happen if the game is to survive. It has to be accessible to the majority and BHVR know this and it has nothing to do with any echo chamber
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So bringing up a streamer then denying Comp.... seems counterintuitive
Good Killer players will find what's good for Nurse... it's not hard
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I agree I believe Nurse is going to see more nerfs but at least not in the near future, theyll collect data but we already know whats going to happen, after all Nurse without perks is the second strongest Killer in the game, first being Nurse with perks.
Getting rid of Starstruck on her isnt going to fix the problem she ignores everything with a very short CD.
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Then why is no one playing it casually? Like really, most people play like their life depends on it. I don´t know about your definition of casual, but thats not my definition of casual.
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Pretty much all asym games have attempted to balance for casuals, and they all are dead or low activity. Dbd is number 1 because of the licenses. Game balance doesn’t deter the vast majority.
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VHS balanced for tournament play it killed the game.
Sprit Detective/Soul Dossier balanced for top tier play 1 ghost vs 5 SWF on comms at top level, died, and dying.
HSHS balanced around SWF, survivors stopped playing now, game shutting down.
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VHS was having much deeper problems than balancing for competitive play. They were hacked numerous times. The other ones I am not as familiar with. Either way, most asyms are small, indie games. Those type of games don’t always last. I sincerely doubt it’s due to balancing issues.
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Well for Propnight you have a case, they nerfed the killers, and made survivors extremely overpowered so killers quit
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Then which asym game? Piruluk at least gave a list of dbd styled games but we have yet to see your example of one that is balanced around high lvl play and done better.
While we're against to much hand holding, dbd needs to mostly be balanced around casual play as that's what the majority of players are, not swat swfs or the perfect play killers. If they make changes that turn away casuals then the game bleeds out.
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The thing that makes her OP aren't her Addons nor M1-special effects from perks. The thing that makes her OP is the fact that she can totally ignore pallets, windows, walls and even switch between floors. BHVR is trying to fix the wrong problem. She needs a complete change/rework of her base power.
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That didn't last long.
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And to add to that, the hand holding is for survivors only. Why the killer community should sweat and play like people with 5000 hours when survivors get a lot of free info patch after patch and by just pressing E in the right moment they can restart a chase? Or by just pre dropping pallet after pallet 3 gens are done because of poor map balance?
Killers shoudn't be balanced around top players because survivors aren't balanced around top survivor at all. Simple as that, and as you say the casual players are the life of this game, upset them to the point of no return and the future of the game won't be bright.
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The other guy pointed it out, but I will be more specific: how do you not see the contradiction in what you just said? You say that neither side should be balanced around top-level play, yet you fully support nerfing Nurse, whose kill rate is insignificant. She wasn't even top 5 according to the top MMR stats- she clearly is not a problem statistically. Yet because apparently .001% of Nurse players are unstoppable, she needs to be nerfed into the ground. I wish more people would acknowledge this complete double standard.
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Eh...VHS died the same death most MMOs did. World of Warcraft just has the establishment and years upon years of content and refinement.
Now, there may be a Final Fantasy-esque dark horse in the making (honestly, Evil Dead at a conceptual level is pretty damn close) but I'm dubious.
APvP is a niche.
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Source?
Let's just clarify here, I believe this is anecdotal on both sides of the argument as neither can definitively prove either side.
However I suspect most people who play DBD don't spend much time on the forums talking about DBD as they simply don't care that much beyond maybe coming in for a rant about something every so often.
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I think i joked about it lasting 2days, it seems i was right.
Nerf nurse threads, roll out! lol
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The community is heavily survivor biased.
- Solo swf gap ( difference is player mentality and software outside the game) : "buff solo to the level of swf."
- Killer tier gap (mechanucally better characters are better than weaker ones, duh): "nerf the top killers."
- " Average survivor is a potato and even most swf are bad" vs "the average nurse is marth level". No one cares for the badplayers playing nurse lol.
- How about focusingobjectives down as a strategy? "Tunnel bad, genrush doesnt exist and if it did its not tunneling"
Of course good/sifficiently prepared players can pull off strategies better than bad player or people who forgot to bring a tool. ("Its not genrushing if i dont bring bnp")
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Source: no one who plays sweaty is playing casually.
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This will get ignored on the basis that "everyone isn't a pro player."
The fact still remains survivors control the game... Period.
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You dont market, but you DEFINITELY balance.
Source: Every single competitive game ever.
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You can never truly balance an asymmetrical game by its inherent nature, you can only mitigate the imbalances and in this case they mostly do it with perks (which is not ideal).
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Can you imagine in any ######### multiplayer game, you're trying to do your objective as quickly, efficiently and effectively as possible, and you're getting ######### from the enemy team? LOL
I can just see it in a game like Dota, "dude you just killed me 5 times in a row, can you stop please?" Or, "dude you just destroyed 3 of our towers, stop "tunneling" our towers!"
Post edited by Rizzo on1 -
First where did we say we support anything other than balancing around casuals?
Second stats effectively mean nill as they're affected by SO many variables. For those stats to be something more tangible for anything other than curiosity, more details are needed.
Third, those nurses that are "unstoppable" still effectively ARE, they just won't be able to use certain perks as effectively. Those nurses are unstoppable cause they are GOOD.
Fourth, we joined Abit before doc came out. Survivors had TONS more broken things to play with which could make killer miserable such as instant heals, instant REPAIR, infinites, the oft complained dh, the list is long and most of it is gone now. Both sides (eventually) get their due.
Fifth, you still didn't give an example (admittedly this is just us being a beep)
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Sorry for bringing up such a minor point but I wanted to bring up something from VHS as I was in the closed beta there both before and after the hacks.
The hacks did very little to hurt VHS. It still came out with over 6,000 players playing at the same time (so probably over 10,000 or 20,000 players as a base) even with no advertising and lost over 95% of the players in a short time frame. It lost them due to balancing for the top. One of the main issues the game has is that Monster is weak and there are situations a Monster can be put in with a coordinated group where there is literally no counterplay. When it was pointed out that new players to Monster would not continue in the role if Monster remained as unengaging and weak as it is the devs and Teen mains pointed to the top Monster players who did really well, said that showed the role was fine, and ignored all the advice to the contrary.
With the Monster role being how it was that led to a lack of Monster players which then increased queue times to unbearable amounts which caused all but the most die-hard players to stop playing, etc until the game it got into the state it was in.
I know the devs had advance notice this was coming as when I was in the closed beta I accurately predicted and told the devs that the situation VHS is in now would happen if Monster was balanced around only top tier players and I wasn't the only person saying this.
The hacks didn't help and there was a lack of advertising (but the lack of advertising may be a good thing if the problems with VHS get ironed out as, once the game is long term sustainable, as new players are easier to retain than ones who already tried but disliked it) but those were, from my experience and time involved in the game, lesser factors. The playerbase numbers upon Early Access were pretty healthy.
The root cause why it hasn't been successful was because Monster was balanced for the top and being a new Monster player was too unforgiving, harsh and unfun. Most new players, after pointing this out, would receive torrents of 'just get gud' posts instead of their concerns being heard and understandably wouldn't stick around on the off chance that they might have fun later. There have been minor improvements since but still not anything that would make it new player friendly enough in my opinion to retain new Monster player. However, the hacks didn't really hurt the playerbase at all; there was no discernible difference in the playerbase because of the hacks and VHS had, upon Early Access release, a decent sized playerbase.
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You can argue up and down about the stats and things that go into it, but the bottom line is that Nurse doesn’t affect the majority. As a Nurse main, you are objectively wrong about her being the same. Check any of the streaks or high level Nurses on YT; they all use the recharge and/or range addons. Now, no matter how good you are with Nurse, it will take significantly longer to catch up and down. Good teams will have more than enough time to finish the gens.
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Did we say same? No. Do we believe that she affected the majority? Also no, but apparently she effected ENOUGH to call everything to attention and that's what happened.
We also said those who are good with her will still be good with her. Needing an add on to be good seems Abit conditional for being called good. Willing to bet if we look for this so called "high lvl nurse play" we're going to find some mix of the following for a lot of it:
Survivors being stomped due to being potatoes, the nurse in question using the add ons or perks or both as a major crutch, the nurse in question doing the usual "hard tunnel and camp cause it's the only way to win" strat.
While yes it will take longer to go place to place without those add ons, she GOES THROUGH OBSTACLES. Certain maps like the game she's still faster than anyone while she loses Abit of time on other maps. That's a map issue.
And (I'm being asked to type this again) you still need that example.
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Was the monster really that weak? We wanted to try VHS but no one else wanted to so we never really saw it.
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The monster was incredibly weak.
The Teens could easily gang up on it once they created weapons and, since EVERY weapon caused the Monster to lose 90% movement speed; it was virtually impossible for a Monster to run away once a Teen attacked it.
Once Teens had weapons, they would find the most open areas of every map and wait there, so Monsters HAD to come at them through long sightlines with little cover. That's right; THE MONESTER was forced to be scared of the Teens. And had 0 power to attack any of them at range.
While teens had firebombs, swords that shot beams, slingshots, and ranged weapons.
Playing Monster sucked in VHS. Once the Teens had weapons, the Monster was very much the victim. And the devs refused to hear it.
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That's incredibly sad...
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I'll agree with @Stabby_Widdershins and go a little bit more into detail into what was said. Yes, Monster is weak in VHS and there is no realistic counterplay in a lot of situations. If Teens group up in a wide open space, as an example, one of the Monsters (WART) literally has no way to get them as the weapons will slow WART, break the armor, and then Banish WART. There is also a Rift mechanism which has a good purpose but essentially puts the Monster into a no win situation if the Teens, who have voice comms in game, coordinate and use it to ambush the Monster
The tracking is also horrible for new players as it is nearly entirely audio based. I'm able to use it but that's only because I played a lot of Spirit but without MDR so I'm used to hearing for footsteps. Beginning me in DbD who had to learn how to use scratch marks or anyone with an auditory impairment would be completely lost. Also, as soon as you hit a Teen you look up so you lose sight of the Teen.
Monster sounds like a backfiring dump truck with no stealth options while Teens can commonly solo you just by being silent and waiting for you to walk by. Any weapon hits that aren't one shots, which just banish you outright, slow you down enough that with multiple weapons even if you catch a Teen out of position the Teen by briefly firing, taking two steps back, repeating they can turn a hit the Monster should have had into a loss for the Monster.
These are some of the major issues that remain. It was worse than what I described for Monster before but when any issues were brought up people would point at Dowsey when he played it or TricksterShadow's performance and say but see! Pointing out that the average video game user wasn't going to spend the hours necessary to be as good as Dowsey or TricksterShadow at a video game but would just play something else was not accepted by the majority of the community or the dev team because, hey, the very top players can do well so everything is okay.
The game does have a lot of potential and I still play it occasionally and provide feedback but it does need major changes for it to catch on. If you want to try it out feel free but as the only regular players left are either the diehard Monster players who are amazingly good or really good Teens but with at least the chance of getting a newer type Teen in the group so don't be surprised if you get stomped non-stop. It can be really stressful too. As an example, during pre 6.1 DH and just recently released CoH I would log in as a Killer on DbD (and mainly Clown) to destress from playing Monster in VHS. I'm hoping major changes come soon as it does have a lot of potential to be a really good game but Monster has to be fixed before it has real growth potential. The attitude seems to have shifted to trying out new things for Monster because the reality is kind of bleak for player retention so that might prompt some changes of substance.
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3 examples of awful games for you... out of how many other games that were the total opposite to this? Need context.
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Not one single statistic released in the past 3 years backs up claims that survivors on the whole have ever had it easier (i.e. escapes outnumbering kills).
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