Is my Knight play an outlier?
Most recent match summary
Map: Borgo (Shattered Square)
Results: 3K + 1 Hatch escape
Gens Left At Very End: 2
First Survivor Killed At: Hook Eight
Build: Discordance, Nowhere to Hide, Floods of Rage, Call of Brine
The reason I'm curious is because I see practically every Knight camp survivors or just 3 gen from the start and I don't. I don't think it's necessary, or at least I don't find it necessary to camp survivors, as the Knight to get effective results in regular play (I don't do tournaments so I'm not commenting on those) and that there are other other playstyles available.
I did record a video showing my most recent game. I was tired, clunky and Borgo is typically my worst map to play on as I've played it the least and I made mistakes but, as you can see in the video, I deliberately switched targets, gave the survivors time to reset and still got a 3K with the survivors struggling to get gens done with only one gen regression perk and 3 info perks.
I know the survivors aren't on the level of Hens but the worst you can say is that they were competent and I don't know what MMR I'm at of course but, from the amount of wins I've had, I'm at a decent level.
Is it a just this is my playstyle thing or why don't I see more Knights playing in a similar fashion to what I did? If you have any questions as to why I did what I did I'm more than happy to answer and please feel free to give your opinion on my question (but if you're going to comment on how I play Knight please watch the video at first at least and not just give an assumption). Also, I'm not a streamer or content creator so I apologize for the fact there's no editing, summaries or commentary in the video.
Comments
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No opinions? I said I don't think camping, tunneling or running more than one regression perk is 100% necessary for the Knight to have success in regular play and that other playstyles are possible and nobody has an opinion either agreeing, disagreeing or otherwise?
@StarLost I'm pinging you simply because you had a thread about how to use the Knight effectively so you may find this interesting because I think we both started Dbd at close to the same time. I'm not on my A-game, more like my C-game because I just took a break over the holidays and I was tired, but you might find the video a more interesting approach to playing Knight.
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You can't really get any decent data from a single game. Anyone can play any killer on any map with any build and -can- do well. It doesn't mean anything.
Sorry but this thread seems a little pointless.
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That Ash first chase was the most pathetic match I have seen in a while.
They don't even run from Nowhere to Hide. they just crouch behind things like beginners.
OK.
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Thanks for the input but I still disagree. The reason why I bring it up is this is representative of my Knight play from about two weeks after release to now. I can take a summary of all my games over the next month or two (and will if anyone indicates they're interested enough to read it) but, unless there's a drastic change, I don't see any reason why the next 100 games will be different from the previous 100 or so. I didn't even play that well that match in comparison to my good games. For that reason, I do think it means something.
To be honest, based off of my experiences as Killer, I agree with @ScottJund when he did a video stating that tunneling and camping is unnecessary in the current state of the game in regular matches (with the reservation a future change could change things).
I'm asking specifically about the Knight since, when playing solo queue, I haven't seen anyone play him other than camp, tunnel and/or 3 gen from the start with triple or quad regression perks. I don't think the Knight has to be played like that to win but there is obviously an overwhelming perception you have to do that as the Knight to win but I disagree.
It's not like other Killers where, yeah, I see tunnelers and campers but not everytime (as an example I see nicer Bubbas more often than facecamping Bubbas). I see camping and tunneling Knights virtually everytime. Is my experience atypical or is what I've seen normal for current Knight play as opposed to how I play Knight?
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Whether tunneling is required or not, it's the easiest way to gain control of the game as killer and is generally the most efficient way to win regardless of killer, regardless of perks, regardless of map, so it'll always be heavily used by the playerbase.
Knight currently is not a very strong killer, he's not the worst, but he's not very high up there, and his upcoming buffs wont change that. His kit does make him strong at defending an area, and with 3-gen builds as strong as they are thesedays, and with his kit not being -that- strong in chase, it's no surprise he's so commonly found 3-genning.
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And that's an example of regular play. After winning as many games as I have as Knight I should be at the softcap. I virtually always get games like this ergo unless the softcap is raised (which I don't want as I don't want insane queue times) it is not necessary to camp, tunnel or 3 gen from the start with multiple regression perks. I'm not going to get tournament level teams commonly in regular play.
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Your first paragraph I agree with. Strategically, and if you pick the weakest link as opposed to picking the strongest, it is 100% the most optimal way to maximize your chances. I understand that and don't care about being tunneled when I get tunneled.
My curiosity was why is it so incredibly common with Knight as opposed to other Killers. For example, Bubba's kit is good at camping but only a minority of the Bubbas I versus camp. Virtually every Knight 3 gens and/or tunnels and camps which is why I was asking if people have seen a variety of playstyles or if nearly every Knight does that and, if so, why? Your second paragraph holds part of the answer, in my opinion, but I see very little divergence in playstyles with Knight.
In your opinion, do you think the new buffs will change that?
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The new buffs for Knight will do little, they make longer patrols more viable but it'll usually still be better just to instantly drop a guard at a loop to force the survivor to leave it.
Regardless it will also do little to change the common perception that Knight is weak. Most people think Knight is a very weak killer, and whether that's true or not doesn't really matter. People believe that he's weak and people believe that you need to camp/tunnel/3-gen as a weak killer.
Bubba is not really considered weak, so I guess that might be why people are more likely to play 'properly' on him.
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That would make sense. I don't consider Knight weak but more of a macro strategy Killer. As you play Twins (I'm assuming) you know that if you can set up a slug or a survivor on hook, a survivor dealing with or healing from Victor, and someone dealing with Charlotte then keep on juggling that the pressure causes most survivors to fall apart.
I find that similar to the Knight and see how it surprises survivors. As an example, with the Ash who I thought was a decent survivor, at the beginning he did not expect me to plop a guard in mid-chase directly behind him from locating him via footsteps and sandwiching him between me and the guard in a lose lose scenario.
The multiple times I used the guards to tie up survivors was intentional as I was wearing down the survivors to disrupt their effectiveness and wear out their resources for a quick clean up at the end. I also used the guards to herd survivors to where I wanted but that also requires map knowledge and knowledge of loops. Also, in my opinion, pinpointing survivors by sound is an important skill for Knight gameplay.
If a survivor is in chase and/or injured from a guard, one is in chase with me, one on hook and one healing or rescuing nobody is on gens. Regardless of whether I win the chases at the beginning or not, I'll win the game if I can keep that pressure up.
If you focus on micro strategy then, yeah, I think Knight will feel weak since to use his power in chase outside of acting like Artist's weaker sibling effectively requires map knowledge and the ability to locate survivors by sound while the survivors are effectively invisible. I also think the Knight's potential is hindered severely if people focus on just chases instead of macro level disruption and harassment.
Anyway, thanks for giving your opinion. That does make sense that other Killers, such as Bubba, are used differently since they're perceived as strong while the Knight is perceived as too weak. I hope the buffs do something to alter that perception and make a non-boring playstyle more accessible and increase the current dismal level of popularity he seems to have.
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A long distance guard chase without you there to pressure the survivor will most of the time be a waste of time. You spend time creating the path and the moment the guard aggros the survivor they just run around a rock or something and collect the banner and you just wasted your power and are now a just 115% killer
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Did you watch the video?
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Not a bad game, but not exactly typical.
Why FOR out of interest? It seems a little redundant. I'd got Lethal Pursuer as that synergizes with NTH really well.
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Ok I watched your video and the survivors are continually getting hit by the carnifex and jailer even though you can literally out run them in a straight line like at 13:10 where you make a needlessely long trail for ash to leave the loop or get hit and he literally just outruns your guard by holding W in a straight line.
Every time you use you your power at a loop you make a super long path to "cut the survivor off" but like you spend so long doing it and the survivors know about it they just leave the loop when crapping out your guard instantly would have the same effect and even better since the survivors have less time to hold W to a different loop which the Borgo has a ton of.
The Leon is well a Leon. Ash literally can hear and see you plop down your power at the beginning second hit hit and doesnt leave the loop and hold W to the next one so he dies, but other than that, pretty competent. The Nea is pretty competent as well. And Meg got double hit which was nice.
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While we applaud you for not being stereotypical, a single match isn't enough data. That said, we agree that running full regression and camping a 3 gen isn't necessary for knight.
What we (two of us anyway) saw was 1 survivor being a anchor (either newer or not good. Ash ran back TOWARDS you for that first chase instead of any other direction) and leon prioritizing blinds and flashbangs (likely a swf but we dont know so cant say). The reason ash lived so long was because you deliberately switched targets. Meg was mostly competent while nea is in a similar boat (she was competent but kept getting stuck on things it seemed). Overall while you played very well, especially for coming back from a break, we dont think it would be a good idea to use this specific video as proof.
Props though for a stylish down on meg. That one was beautiful.
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Thanks for looking at that. I use FOR as I use the guards for harassment a lot and to use up their resources (medkits, etc). FoR is likely to activate at an inopportune time for the survivors and then I can see where they are and plan my next move accordingly. Getting survivors off gens is my priority as, if I can disrupt survivors from doing gens long enough, I will win. They'll get frustrated, panic, and make mistakes. Why chase a good looper at a strong tile if I catch them out of position? FoR helps me to accomplish that by letting me know the survivors positions and also if a good looper is in a vulnerable spot.
Nowhere to Hide is a better perk overall in my opinion but since I don't need the 2 extra seconds for LP on Nowhere To Hide I use FoR so I can some additional updates to change my strategy as needed. I generally main Artist and I do use LP there for the strong open with Face the Darkness for the extra time but I don't find Nowhere to Hide needs the extra time since the patrol radius with Map of the Realm is usually large enough to catch them.
Thanks for your input but I think there's a difference in how we're viewing it. While it might have been more efficient on a micro sense to just drop a guard and go my goal is not to win chases immediately but to wear the survivors down and disrupt their objective. Since I always use Dried Horsemeat and Map of the Realm except when experimenting I want the guards to chase the survivors. Every second in chase is a second that survivor is not doing something important regardless of whether it's me or a guard doing the chase. I could win a chase more easily but lose the game by not spreading enough pressure. Unless you have a specific example in mind I think I'm viewing the game more as time management as a strategy to win.
Thanks and you're correct; a single match is not enough data. I would go further and say that any set of matches from a single player is not enough to determine the long-term strength or weakness of a Killer. What I'm mainly asking is why does nobody else I've seen play like this along with the statement that we agree on that tunneling, camping and 3 or 4 regression perks are not necessary on Knight to do well. Unfortunately, Knight is also an outlier in that I haven't seen any other Knight player that hasn't tunneled, camped and/or 3 genned with multiple regressions from the start. I think that there are other playstyles viable for Knight in regular play but, unlike every other Killer, I don't see it when versusing Knight.
I'm not playing against top tier tournament death squads regularly but, with the soft cap being what it is, neither is anybody else in regular play. If anyone is interested in seeing what the data looks like over a set of games I could record the results on rank reset from Ash IV to Iri 1 and summarize it on a data sheet for people to look at similar to what I did with solo queue survivor. I'm not going to estimate my win rate, and I'm not trying to blow my own horn or anything, but I'm much better at Killer than I am at Survivor so it might be interesting to see. But it does take time so my only hesitation about doing it is I don't want to do it if it's not useful to anyone. If it is useful or interesting to anyone I'm happy to put it out there.
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Tunnelling, camping, running 3 to 4 slowdowns isn't necessary on most killers, but it gives an easier win, so why wouldn't they run/do it and get the mild dopamine hit from seeing that 4k screen?
"...if I can disrupt survivors from doing gens long enough, I will win." Its basically what all the other knights are doing to its logical conclusion. "If I can lock down this 3 gen, eventually the survivors will mess up and you win!"
I think winning chases immediately is a pretty good way of wearing the survivors down and disrupting gens. Why chase a good looper at a strong tile when you can plop down a guard, they have to hold W to the next loop or he gets hit by the guard or you and dies if there's no more interconnected loops. Forcing people to go for saves more and heal more often since they dont want to be caught edge map or just no other loops around is game delay in itself.
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It's clear you have a rather different view of the game than others. I don't mean that in a bad way at all by the way, but surprisingly-few killers pay any attention to the macro game. The vast, vast majority of killer players only focus on finding survivors quickly and ending chases quickly, which Knight is not very good at. Heck I mainly play killer that way.
I can understand he may be better when focusing more on a macro mindset, though I would still say he falls quite a bit behind someone like Artist who has complete map pressure and information from her power alone.
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It's more that...how would I explain it?
There is a certain style of play that you need to adopt against a strong, coordinated team (see: Community Cup). That style of play is overkill against solos or less strong teams.
However, there's zero way to know going in if you're up against some solo bunny rabbits or a SWF pack of velociraptors.
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Honestly, if that's all your asking then we think it's luck. We've (thankfully) only had 2 outa the 10 knights we've seen do the 3 gen camp (tunnelers would be about 6/10 if we remember right). Tunneling and camping at a 3gen is what most see as the easiest way to "win" so that what they do.
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I didn’t need to watch past the first chase with Ash. That’s a newbie team.
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You're still thinking micro as opposed to a macro strategy. If I have one person in chase I have one person occupied. More survivors occupied are better.
I'm suspecting your arguments are coming from me saying Killers don't need to camp or tunnel in regular play. As @StarLost mentioned it's overkill in most situations. I don't need to camp or tunnel and I don't like to camp or tunnel so I don't. You also said most Killers don't need to camp or tunnel; they want to. That's my secondary point. Personally, I don't care if people tunnel and camp; that's BHVR's job to fix and not the players but it's the player's choice and saying they need to in this meta isn't entirely accurate.
Thanks for the input; that was my main question. Maybe I'm just unlucky but every Knight I've run across other than me has done it. It could just be bad luck or a quirk of my server, time I play at, MMR or any combination of those. I was just curious as, for example, with Bubba, I see more friendly Bubbas than I see facecamping Bubbas but what you're experiencing with the Knight is similar to with other Killers so maybe it's just a quirk specific to me I see so many doing it.
Or, alternatively, the Ash was surprised and made a mistake like everyone does. Nobody's perfect but since you didn't watch the rest of the video you can't really comment on anything other than a very specific sequence and you can't really draw a conclusion from such a small sequence.
That's irrelevant in my opinion, however, as I win most of my games as Knight without camping, tunneling or 3 genning from the start with multiple regression perks. The match was literally a completely random sample where I just thought 'hey, I'll record my next match for this question' and did so. As such, it is representative of the type of totally random matches you get since the softcap is where it is.
If you're trying to dismiss it because you like to tunnel and camp (which I don't know if you do or not but when I say it's not needed most dismissals come from people who do tunnel and camp) the secondary point I made wasn't that you shouldn't; it's that you don't need to. I don't care if you tunnel, camp, meme in a snowman, farm, or two hook and let everyone go. It's your game and time; play it how you want. My point specific to the Knight was that you don't have to tunnel and camp or 3 gen from the start to be successful in regular games and I have no problem showing that in sequential matches. As I only experienced tunnelers and campers as opposed to a variety of playstyles like with other Killers I asked if I played very differently from most Knights.
Cool, thanks for the input. I can't get anybody I know irl to play DbD because of survivors bullying and gloating at new Killers (not all survivors of course but enough it was unpleasant enough to deter anyone I know from continuing) so the forum here is the only place for me to get opinions from.
I do agree as well that the Knight is better when he is played macro and that the Artist is much better than the Knight. The playstyle is different enough I can play him for variety but with the Artist, who I generally main, I've easily won against survivors I would describe as really good as opposed to just competent and that I think would have given me a very hard time on Knight. The Artist is definitely the stronger Killer. I would say Knight is maybe B+ but Artist is S tier.
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I watched a bit of the video, and I'm honestly confused at what the point of this thread is supposed to be. You played against four survivors that had absolutely no idea how to play against the killer (and it wouldn't be a stretch to infer from this that they're not very good at the game to begin with), got a good result while not using the killer optimally or with optimal perks, and think that this one game somehow constitutes enough data to condemn the rest of the player base.
To answer your inquiry, people use the knight to camp 3-gens because he has one of the strongest basekits to do so. He's a very strong camper overall, and tunneling is the optimal way to play the game currently (unfortunately), hence why so many killers are doing it. The result is that the average, sweaty Knight player that wants to win will likely proxy camp their first hook, while holding a 3-gen, and will try to tunnel out the person if they do get unhooked. It's not rocket science.
Sorry, I just don't see what the point of this thread is. If you're trying to incite discussion about the Knight, there was probably a better way to do so. If you're trying to somehow change everyone's opinions on the killer by using a cherrypicked game as data, then I don't know what to tell you.
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considering that majority of the comments say the team had no idea what they were doing, I do not retract my statement.
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The thread and my questions indicate that the main question of the thread was that I only experience Knights who tunnel, camp and/or 3 gen from the start and I play Knight very differently. As such, I asked if I (a) played Knight very differently and; (b) is what I experienced common to everyone else.
I'm unsure what your definition is of condemn but, to me, saying that, in regular games, you don't need to camp, tunnel or 3 gen from the start is not a condemnation but rather a statement of fact. If you disagree and feel that you need to tunnel, camp and 3 gen from the start with triple or quad regression perks with the Knight to win in regular matches please feel free to state that and why.
I'm also unsure what your definition of cherry picking is but I don't consider randomly picking a day to record a match and show it warts and all no matter what happens constitutes cherry picking.
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No problem, it was literally a random match from a day I randomly picked. I win nearly all of my Knight games so this is a representation of what you see in regular play and not tournament style play which I specifically said I wasn't referencing. If you feel they didn't know what to do that just strengthens my point that the softcap is low enough there's no need to tunnel and camp in regular matches; it's a choice and not a necessity. I think they were competent overall, not great but competent, but if the softcap is low enough survivors who don't know what to do are matched against more experienced Killers that just helps illustrate that tunneling and camping is not necessary in regular play. Tournament could be a totally different matter but I'm talking about regular matches, not tournaments.
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a) You are playing the Knight differently than the people who play him optimally, because the optimal way to play him is to use his power to shut down loops as quick as possible (like an Artist for dummies), secure quick hits, hook someone in a 3-gen, and camp them out - ideally to death.
b) Define "everyone else". If you're referring to the vast majority of the player base (who I assume plays at a level below the top levels), then you're probably not using the killer all that differently. If you're referring to the portion of the player base that plays the killer at the highest level, and HAS to use him optimally, then you are most definitely using him differently.
"In regular games" is an impertinent phrase. A regular game for you may be 4 players who play the game once a week and have no idea what they're doing. A regular game for someone else may be a sweaty swf that plays this game like a full-time job, brings map offerings and S tier items every game, and has perfect comms. There is no middle ground here. And you absolutely do need to camp/tunnel/3-gen from the start if you're playing at the highest level of play (or close to it), because survivors are simply too efficient, and to do otherwise would be to use the killer suboptimally which will likely lead to a loss. You may not enjoy the quad slowdown 3-gen camping strat (I don't either), but it's currently the optimal way to play this killer specifically, hence why so many people gravitate to it.
When I say you were cherrypicking, I didn't intend to infer that it was done with malice. I meant that it is cherrypicked by definition; as it is an extremely small sample size (one game) played against an evidently incompetent team. It wouldn't be all that different if I played a game against all bots, without using my power or any perks, go out of my way to 8-hook them, and try to convince people that this constitutes proof that camping/tunneling/perks/powers aren't necessary to 4k. It's not realistic, and it's not relevant to any tangible discussion.
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Thanks for explaining your definition of cherry picking as it sounded kind of like you were lumping me in with sporadic 99% kill rate, 80% solo escape rate claims that show up sporadically.
I don't think it is impertinent to describe the matches people encounter as regular games and I do think there is a wide and varying level of skill shown in there and not one extreme or other. The soft cap is low enough there are not any Killers who, outside of custom matches, etc, are facing top tournament level players on a regular basis. That is just not the reality of the game.
I don't think your explanation covers it though. Tunneling can, if you just pick the first survivor seen, cost you the game and there are a lot of people who play sub-optimally due to fun, they don't want to be really sweaty to the other side, etc. I didn't see that with my Knight experience which is why I asked. To be honest, with the softcap, playing optimally would be boring.
To be honest, and I'm not trying to blow my horn, I win definitely more than the kill rate BHVR is shooting for. I also, unless BMed, never tunnel or camp and both statements have been true for months on all Killers I wanted to play even semi-seriously (outside of using Frozen Ghostface to pop out of snowmen and things like that).
The high level MMR thing is, in my opinion, a myth. The soft cap is too low for anyone to run into tournament level teams where it might be necessary on a regular basis. I will of course add the caveat that I don't believe any single player, regardless of the number of games, can serve as definitive proof of anything as one person can't represent everybody but, for me at least, out of an average of 4 to 8 Killer games a day over months I have seen no need to consider tunneling and camping and was able to win a considerable majority of them with spreading out hooks. That's why I don't think it's necessary. Matchmaking does not have enough survivors of the skill level where one would have to to regularly encounter them.
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Considering how little we know about the MMR system and its low soft cap, I find that most people that try to argue that the fact that they're "above" it and therefore at the same level as everyone else to be vastly underestimating the skill level of higher level players, especially survivors. I don't pretend to know how the MMR system functions, all I know is that most of my games, especially on my most played killers, tend to be against extremely competent survivors more often than not, and it didn't use to be this way. This isn't evidence of anything, but to claim to understand the MMR system and its functionality entirely is absolutely fallacious unless you happen to have intimate information about its mechanics.
Casual players are, by definition, casual, and less likely to discuss or even delve too deeply into the game's mechanics. You'll find a lot less casual players, for example, on this forum, as the dedication required to discuss the game likely means that the person cares more than a casual player. Ergo, the experiences of a casual player are definitely not relevant in the discussion at hand.
Tunneling will cost you the game if you're a bad tunneler, it's that easy. If you try to tunnel a person that leads you on a 5-gen chase, you cost yourself the game - not the strategy. Tunneling is OBJECTIVELY the strongest strategy in the game currently, and it's the reason why you see it done so much at higher levels of play.
I also used to never tunnel or camp, and prided myself in it, then I won enough games that if I ever dare try to play without pressuring one or two people in specific, I'll lose all 5 gens by the time I have 4-5 hooks, especially when playing a B-tier or lower killer.
Your opinion is contrary to my own opinion and experiences, so I don't really care for it. Again, no one outside of the dev team really understands the inner workings of the MMR system and how much wiggle room it affords above the soft cap. However, I'd be willing to wager a good amount of the "sweaty" killers beside myself on this forum have similar experiences where they run into very competent swfs more often than not.
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That's fine; we can agree to disagree. I do run into very good SWFs and I still quite often win without camping or tunneling. Are there SWFs that would stomp me? Of course there are. However, I generally play later at night for three reasons; Killer incentives, a lower queue time and a higher chance to face SWFs which are more of a challenge than solos so I do run into quite a few SWFs.
Your experience can be different but we dont know a variety of factors: which of us is the more skilled player, whether our servers make a difference, whether the time of day makes a difference, the exact intricacies of the MMR system, etc. I find that a lot of people tend to point at whatever fault they can try to dig up to justify their own position such as when @BradQuackson posted his Nurse play and people said 'the survivors weren't very good' and ignored that his match was a random sample of his very long win streak and his point that he won virtually all of his matches was very legitimate.
The fact is that I don't camp or tunnel and I spread around hooks and I win most of my games. There are three possibilities I see; a) is that MMR point gain is completely borked and that's influencing my experience but, in which case, everyone should be experiencing that, b) that camping and tunneling is a choice but not a necessity in most matches, or c) your server just has a far higher proportion of very high survivors than mine.
Personally, I think it's b) and the majority of people who say it's necessary are just trying to justify their choice or have trapped themselves at a level where they need to because they haven't worked on their other game skills enough. I find that most people who get defensive over the statement that camping and tunneling is not necessary fall into one of those two categories.
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