General Discussions
General Discussions
Prove thyself value
Do people actually now how much prove thyself actually helps in doing a gen? Is Prove really the probem or just BNPs?
In case someone doesn't know, prove thyself makes a gen faster by:
- 2 People: 7 seconds
- 3 People: 10 seconds
- 4 People: 12 seconds
I mean there are simple ways to nerf the perk, you can make the boost only be 15%, instead of increasing with the number of people, or the boost only affect the survivor with prove equipped.
I just wonder if Prove is really the problem, or is just super used because its the most simple and effective do gens faster perk, since the others are more specific.
Comments
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Prove is not a problem.
Without Prove, survivors are less efficient when they're several on the same gen. They would get more value splitting up.
Prove essentially just removes the efficiency loss of groups. They'd get just as much value splitting up. In fact, they'd put more pressure on the killer advancing on several gens.
Gens progression is not going faster than it would be without Prove if people were splitting up, they just have more checkpoints as you can't regress a gen that's already at 100.
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Honestly, i think the same. But every single time i see people wanting this meta of Eruption, COB ad overcharged to be looked at, you get the response that prove is the culprit.
I don't like gen perks for either side, i know they must exist. But it's just frustrating to constantly see this two dumb builds fighting for supremacy.
Honestly they can both be nerfed to the ground, stally infinite games of regression or a 3 min game with no interactions. They both suck.
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Prove isn't as big of a time save as people think but it's still a good perk, and it's still pretty consistent. Plus sure, if two survivors start near the same gen they could split up, but that does also waste time for one of them to travel across the map and find another gen to start, instead of just doing the one they're right next to.
Also most people run Prove because it gives you a bunch more BP. Maximising Objective points, especially now with the cap raised to 10k, can be pretty hard without it, but Prove Thyself helpls hugely.
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Prove thyself only earns you like 6 second extra if you are doing gens as 2 survivor.
It only really shines when there are 3 or 4 survivors because the bonus gets bigger every time.
but since this happens rarely and most of the gens are either done solo or duo you dont need to worry that much
and it gives you bonus blood points which is nice and doesnt affect the killer
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I wish they'd increase the base BP gains of doing gens and remove Proves BP bonus so I could unequip it. But I can't give the free BP up.
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Here's the thing alone Prove Thyself isn't a big problem...it's it's synergy with the other Gen speed perks, tool boxes and BNPs. So just like the Regression Meta has such good synergy with each perk in it's roster so does the Gen Speed Meta.
So it's just not one perk that's the issue but multiple things that make the issues we have on both sides.
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Prove Thyself is not even that good as a Perk. Most people use it for the BPs anyway, if there would be no BP-Bonus, the number of Prove Thyself-Users would drop a lot.
And it does not even matter if you use Toolboxes or not. With or without Toolbox, it is always better to split up without Prove Thyself than doing the same Gen with Prove Thyself. Having a Toolbox with or without BNP does not change that.
But I am also very sure that some people just dont understand what the Perk actually does and only see "Muh, Gens faster?!"...
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I think Prove Thyself should stack with itself.
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The bonus isn't actually getting bigger, it's merely matching in turn the penalty you get for stacking survivors.
Each additional survivor on a gen decreases your repair speed by 15%.
Prove thyself increases your repair speed by 15% for each additional survivor.
In theory, they cancel out, but in practice, because maths, Prove Thyself doesn't quite make up for the penalty, and so multiple survivors with Prove Thyself is still less efficient than each of those survivors working a single gen by themselves. This is telegraphed by the fact that the repair gauge is still Red with Prove Thyself. If it was cancelling it out it would be White, and if it was increasing your efficiency it would be Yellow.
Prove Thyself is a hindrance early in the game. You're not gaining any efficiency over splitting up, and having multiple survivors in the same spot when the killer is patrolling is good for the killer and bad for survivors. It's a gamble, and you have to hope that you finish the gen before the killer finds you or it's all wasted. I can't count how many times I've had 4 stack on a gen with Prove, get the gen to 90%, then the killer comes and chases us all off, leading to that gen regressing back to zero.
Prove Thyself really only benefits survivors when they're down to the last 1 or 2 gens and they have to work at beating out the killers patrols/pressure. And yet in the most dire situations, survivors still get better results when splitting up and each doing a different generator, so that the killer is forced to pressure multiple objectives.
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It could be an alternative way of working if Prove Thyself:
- Only gave a maximum of +15%
- Stacked with the effect from other survivors.
This way, any more than 1 additional survivor and it would require all participating survivors to run the perk, instead of just one.
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Prove Thyself alone is only problematic because it reduces the time a killer has in the game, which is already limited. It allows survivors to do a gen incredibly fast by just grouping up. Sure, if the survivors were all spread out across the map they still could progress just as fast (in theory) but that also increases the chances of the killer finding them. Then there is also the early and late game. With Prove Thyself you can more often than not finish the first gen before the killer even has a chance to get there. The same applies to the last gen, if the killer doesn't have enough slowdown to stop that.
The real problem comes from Prove Thyself stacking with other things like toolboxes, Hyperfocus + Stakeout etc. This just gets ridiculous.
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You are kinda wrong, early game Prove is bad, it's not as efficient as Splitting up, and if the killer finds the grouped up survivors the killer has pressure on multiple survivors instead of just one.
Prove is only good when there only 2 or 1 gens left, since its the most effective way survivors have to break any gens that are too close.
Also again, both sides are bad, extending the game is as bad as rushing it. While both styles of perks should exist because they are necessary both styles shouldn't be this prominent as they are now.
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Prove thyself used incorrectly is less efficient than just splitting up on gens.
For numbers, 2 survivors working on a gen with PT take 46.04 seconds, so if they stick together then 2 gens takes 92.08 seconds (ignoring travel time). If they just split up and did two different gens separately, then those same 2 gens complete in 90 seconds. This doesn't even consider the fact that, together they can both be chased off the gen, but apart, the killer can only pressure one at a time.
Other perks/items don't make prove more efficient, they only modify these base timings of the gen, so the inefficiency of using prove incorrectly never fully goes away. If you hit 6 Hyperfocus skill checks, you're still better off doing so alone.
So as long as there's more than one gen available, survivors are *slower* working together on gens. The savings comes for survivors at one gen remaining. The only possible exception is if all survivors spawn together and can finish the first gen before the killer interrupts them, which is a huge gamble early game. In most situations, using PT at the wrong time is *buying* the killer both time and possible pressure.
The problem with PT combined with other things is only the 'other things'. Is BNP too much? Probably. I'd rather see it become a 'use above 50% progress and the gen locks in, cannot regress below 50%.' Hyperfocus is generally fine, but shouldn't work with toolboxes, similar to autodidact and med kits. I also think toolboxes should have double or even triple the charges, but provide no more than 10% repair speed regardless of add-ons.
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I generally agree with everything you said, the only one idk is the toolbox change.
I personally think BNP is the problem, i just love the idea of locking a gen to 50% progress, i think it would be healthier
Also those toolboxes were a thing in the past, thats how they used to work before they changed them.
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Let's do a little thought experiment. Let's say there was a perk that allowed a survivor to instantly put 30s of progress into a gen but only if they didn't perform any healing actions, work on a gen or were in chase. That perk would be completely useless then, right? It doesn't improve your efficiency but it will keep you locked in a place for a shorter amount of time, decreasing the potential time the killer has to put pressure on you. There comes the issue with Prove Thyself. It allows survivors to speed up a gen and therefore be free to go after achieving something the killer cannot take away. This also why camping is a viable strategy and doesn't equate to a loss when done correctly. You may not progress faster overall but you achieve something irreversible that will put you in a better spot.
DBD is pretty much a time management simulator for both sides. Meaning you don't need to make every action faster but just reach the next checkpoint in a more efficient manner. This is exactly what Prove Thyself does. A gen the killer could otherwise defend and contest will be done before they can even reach it.
I 100% agree that Prove Thyself when used incorrect will not be a big help. But it makes every second the killer loses for traversing the map, not being in chase, not effectively progressing their own objective hurt much more.
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I mean, I posted numbers and evidence that PT isn't as 'crazy omg #########' overpowered as some people seem to believe, and also agree and posted constructive feedback about changes for both Hyperfocus and BNP. But the problem isn't PT.
I see what you're saying about smaller time on a gen, but time is the killer's primary resource. The primary resource of survivors is the players, since they have the numbers advantage, and grouping up for early gens is simply giving up that advantage when it's the strongest. That's why eliminating a survivor is so strong for killer, and wasting the killer's time via chase, perks, saves, distraction, etc. is so strong for survivors.
The most 'gen efficient' teams always spread out. Always. Even (especially) in the competitive scene, (where players love to point and shout that 'camping/tunneling is the only way to win') survivors are spread out on gens to maximize efficiency. Locking in a gen is good, but pressuring multiple gens is better. And that principle can still be true with only 3 gens left on the map, when PT is arguably the strongest. (And for the record, being down to one gen left is also when Hyperfocus, BNP, and your "thought experiment magical perk" are also strongest, especially in a 3-gen scenario).
Prove Thyself is a placebo that killers claim is losing them games, when in actuality it really isn't. The reality is that most killers are bad at applying map pressure for various reasons. Some maps are too big, there are too many resources for survivors on this map, these survivors are annoying, and some killers don't even try beyond equipping meta perks. (These reasons should sound very familiar.) In fact, killers who camp and tunnel at 5 gens are generally so fixated on the idea that "3 survivors is a nearly guaranteed win" that they don't even consider that doing so expends their time with relatively minimal impact on gen progress elsewhere. Instead they throw up their hands in disgust over "genrushing", as if the survivors are supposed to stand afk until the killer is ready to deal with them.
Camping/tunneling strats are maximum pressure on one or two survivors, and minimum pressure on the other two. The two left completely alone are best off "just doing gens" separately until the last one, regardless of perks or items.
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