DBD Map review : Make the broken maps Smaller
I understand that the devs want DBD to be a pretty game but this must not come at the cost of good gameplay.
There are far too many maps in DBD that are just so big that they are not fair for 90% of the killers. The formula is basically : If the map is big and the loops are very safe then the map is unfair.
Eyrie of crows is one of the primary offenders in part because it has a 3 gen that is too easy to break around the main building.
What do Dead Dog, Hawkins and Father Campbell's chapel all have in common?
1) They are small maps under 9000m².
2) They have mostly fair loops.
Compare these two maps of the same tileset. One is just huge at 11,000m². Both maps have similarly safe loops and a strong main building. the difference really comes down to how long it takes to walk around to find people and start chases. Disturbed ward is "fine" if you are playing Blight and Nurse who can zoom everywhere. On the other side of the spectrum killers like Hag and Huntress suffer on Disturbed ward. Father Campbell's Chapel is a fair map for M1 killers and Disturbed Ward is not. The difference essentially boils down to : size matters.
In case you are familiar this is one of the most fair maps the DBD team ever made:
It had a few strong god pallets. It had a variable layout of certain rooms that led to a high degree of RNG so you could not memorize the map. It also had mostly unsafe pallets that m1 killers could mindgame. Finally as I pointed out before it was smaller than 9000m².
This map is only fair because it has one of the strongest 3 or 4 gen spawns every single game. Guard that side and you win.
Does 9000m² mean a map is fair? No.
This map is under 9000m² but has 25 god pallets. That means up to 25 times the survivors can remove the killer's skillful ability to get them at pallets unless they are playing a killer like Nurse, Blight, Nemesis or Pyramid Head. Due to the layout of this map having closed sections before generators are completed - I would put it more in the "slightly problematic category".
I would like to nominate Coal Tower as an Honorable mention for : maps under 9000m² that favor survivors. While it is extremely small the pallet and vault density is too high. It is far too easy for skilled survivors to chain jungle gyms together most of the time. If the game had a weighted system for placing map elements (as Scott Jund suggested) Coal tower might be "ok". An example would be that this map would spawn hills between jungle gyms effectively creating dead zones instead of easy to chain loop zones that can lead to long chases.
One of these things is not like the other (be aware there is a fifth map that is 9984m²). In case it isn't obvious there is one fair corn map and that is Rancid Abattoir. What makes it fair compared to all the other corn maps? It's fair because it is small sized and the main building is not very easy to abuse (break one wall and the vault is unsafe). All of these maps have super safe tiles but one is small and the rest are huge.
Overall I do not like the idea of breakable walls but Abattoir is a perfect example of a balanced aspect of that mechanic.
There are five versions of this map and every one massively favors survivors. Why? The main building is a huge time waster and has several god pallets. But that's not all - every building on this map has very strong loops and at least one god pallet. My game always crashes when people try to use this map offering - maybe one day the devs can fix that.
This map suffers from the "shift+w" effect. It's just far too simple to run to the opposite side of the map if the killer is chasing you.
One end of this map is "short" in that it always has either a 3 or 4 gen setup in close proximity. If you hold that side and ignore the other side the map is extremely "easy". But the game might take 30-45 minutes if the basement is in the library.
Eyrie of crows pre-rework suffers from exactly the same problem. This map should probably have two versions with slightly different shapes. Both should be about 8500m². Large indoor maps with tons of places to hide, lots of god pallets and a long shift w runway = broken for m1 killers.
Why is this map broken?
1) main building can have 3 near infinite loop windows - the style of which were in fashion only in 2016. You can fix this by removing the back window vault relative to the front door (forever closed) and only allowing either the upstairs or downstairs window to be open.
2) the map is too big and there are too many safe loops per square foot. The corner with the Car park is insanely safe and has about 4 tiles linked to it. The jungle gym adjacent to the car park in that corner needs to be completely removed so that the only tile you can chain to that tile is another pallet - which becomes a dead zone when the pallet is used.
3) The Generators are in a "U" shape around the main building with none at the "top" of the map from this orientation. This means that overall there is rarely ever a possibility to "three gen". That's not fair to the killer unless we are giving killers deadlock base kit as long as they stay more than 16m away from a hooked survivor (unless another survivor is nearby).
Why is this map broken?
1) It's too big. Did we find the theme yet?
2) The loops are an unconventional design that make safe looping way too safe. Too many tiles in certain parts of the map can be chained together without dropping a pallet.
Comments
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Sure. Dead dawg being fair. Even Otz - killer main that definitely will not stand side to survivors will tell you dead dawg is very strong for killer
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Also your comments make very much not sense. The game usually ends up in killer's win. So no. you are totally misguided
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Seems about accurate to me. Most maps are way too large and with too many overly safe tiles (forced pallet break). Coal Tower is the ideal map size imo, mind you size, not design.
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Conclusion: when survivors escape (aka I didont git mah 4 kiwls) it is not fair. Not fair at all. Take note here, BHVR, if you're reading. Your game isn't fair. Do something!
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Play the weakest M1 killers across every map and think that through again.
Doctor and Nurse play fine on every map because they are so much better than every other killer. It's almost not even the same game by comparison.
Otz has a curios perspective. He has made the claim that "the game" map is "fine" because he played clown on that map and broke no pallets and won. Imagine if he played four people on that map knowing he was never allowed to break pallets. Do you think that would have gone the same way?
Coal Tower is good size because you inherently run into people doing gens during chases. This is one of the things that breaks larger maps because that stops happening and makes 4v1 more punishing.
The problem with the coal tower design is that you can have 3-4 loops chained super close and it can be way too easy to loop without actually using any resources for quite some time.
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I agree with basically everything you just said. I fully believe that imbalance in the game doesnt come so much from killer powers or survivor perks (bar a few exceptions for both of those), but the map design/size.
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DD saloon also has an incredibly one sided main building. The building is so strong that most killer can never even consider contesting the generator on the second floor of that building.
But let me guess you think that's fine?
We see the same problem with the Garden of Joy Map. We have exactly the same problem in the disturbed Ward map that can have 2 generators spawn in an incredibly strong main building.
Most people don't remember DBD when it was in this state:
This might not be the most fair example because : Spine Chill and resilience gave 15% vault speed and all vaults were always fast vaults.
The idea to take from this is that this style of window was deemed : unfair. And yet we have this window as a possibility in three places in one building on the Garden of Joy Map.
What you don't see in this video is that there was also an infinite loop upstairs. There is always one window closed upstairs on the Ironworks map because it used to be an infinite loop. Notice how slowly the wraith vaults? That was the old speed and it allowed for two adjacent windows to be an infinite loop with nothing else.
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There are 7 gens. Guaranteed 3gen near gallows. What does main's gen matter when killer can ignore it and ez win the game regardless? Also most killers have a way to combat main's infinite. It's actually very few killers that can't - only slow M1 killer that can't shoot or trap a spot (basically only onryo and Freddy, maybe demogorgon) - those have to ignore main. Everyone else have ways to combat it.
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-"What does main's gen matter when killer can ignore it and ez win the game regardless?"
Efficient survivors will always break the corner three gen first. And then you have nothing. Killing one survivor early is roughly equal to losing the only viable three gen on that map - unless you are Blight or Nurse in which case almost any three generators are always close enough for you to patrol.
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nah. There's possible 3gen at road opposite to water tower. Also there are no gens diagonally from water tower. That 3gen is just plain unfair, but all the gens are always close together. So it's not just break that 3gen (like on headonfield) and then you are OK
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efficient killers guard 3 gens. The only time killers were voluntary lose a 3 gen is when they can get a kill from losing a 3 gen. I think map size only an issue if the survivor is hold-w before chases because of the large map size. A map that makes me think its too big is Mother dwelling. that map is absolutely massive and if you ever had a chance to face SWF's that pick this map with 4 sprint bursts as an non-mobile killer, you will understand how painful it is to play this map in term of the shift-w that is possible on this map. Like with sprint burst, the killer can potentially spend like 30 seconds just trying to get into the chase on this map. Even if you successful beat the survivor at the loops, it takes so long to patrol generators and walk from one end of the map to another that is likely worst offender when it comes too big maps.
I think your post is complaining less about big maps and more about gen spread. Your essentially asking for every map to have unbeatable 3 gens so that you can turtle near endlessly. Personally, I think close gen spread are unhealthy for dbd because they take away the defining strength of survivors which is spreading out and pressuring places of the map. The game being played in a single area of the map makes the game feel less dynamic. At least in my opinion, its incredible boring. I heavily dislike this gameplay. 3 generator greatly dodge dbd map's design within loops. You see, you can have pretty unfair pallet loops everywhere and strong windows, but if the killer is 3 gen, they do not need to deal with the loop design in the map if they never walk to that side of the map. That is large reason why Gideon has high kill-rate. It is strong 3 gen map.. so despite the map having a lot of pallets, the gen spread is favorable that 3 gen is really effective. I think that is running theme with dev's kill-rate on the maps. The maps that have poor gen spread seem to have highest kill-rate while the maps with largest gen spread have highest escape rate. I would imagine that since Eyrie crows has poor gen spread, it likely has very high escape-rate as a result of high gen spread. Of course the loop strength has contributing factor to a map's escape rate but its not single biggest factor. I think gen spread is single biggest factor otherwise if loop strength was biggest factor, then a map like Gideon's would be among highest escape rate maps. Otz in his video describes this as indoor map syndrome but I think i think it is fair to say that indoor maps have worse gen spread which leads to higher average kill-rate on said maps. At least this is more interpretation.
In regards to map balance, I think map size is an ok spot(barring Mother dwelling). I think loop balance is more problematic on most maps then map size. Father chapel for example is one of few maps to have a remaining god window. In one of iterations(I think Otz labelled this as Red chapel) that window by the basement is awful. its just free time waste. Father chapel is also one few maps to be able to spawn a jungle gym window facing a shack window. that for m1 killers is like 2+ minute chase to take out 2 pallets. In general running problem with most killers is that fact that most killers fall into the pallet break simulator. They cannot really mindgame pallets that are dropped. As a result, they end up being forced to break pallets over trying to get hits at pallets because getting hits at pallets takes longer then breaking pallets. It creates lose/lose situation for the killer. If they break pallets, the killer breaks pallets so slowly that the survivor can nearly always get to next loop and chain into another pallet which then leads to more pallet breaking. If they do not break pallets, the jungle classical gym pallet and shack facing each other on father chapel are bloodlust 3 infinities so you cannot down the survivor. As a result, there is no good play for killer. Breaking the entire map full of safe pallets is not feasible and bloodlusting pallet is too time-consuming/ineffective. I think it would be better to shorten pallet side loops or perhaps make killer's able to lunge longer so there is less incentive to break pallets and more incentive to win pallets over breaking them. Make killers not rely on bloodlust/pallet breaking to win chases. This is why killer resort to 3 gen in the game. You do not need break entire map if you 3 gen the map and play specifically one side. No need to worry about loop balance when your not going to participate in 75% of the maps loops. Your opponent cannot loop if there is nothing to loop in the area(artificial dead-zone).
TL:DR map size is ok, map pallet safety loop balance is the issue in my opinion. please avoid balancing the game off 3 gens gameplay. It makes game less fun.
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-"I think your post is complaining less about big maps and more about gen spread."
Generator spread is a direct function of map size. If you can walk 15 seconds to the far generator vs 35 seconds - that's a huge difference.
But as I explained - small maps tend to have gens close together so that while chasing player one you often run into player two working on a generator. As map sizes go up this happens less often. The only way a 4v1 game is fair is if the killer gets multiple 2 for 1 chases OR the killer tunnels someone out.
Which one of those two is more fun?
While technically possible it doesn't always spawn that way. Furthermore
The smart survivors will always try to break the three gen first. Bad players decide to do the "safe and easy" gens first and then wonder why they lose.
-"Also most killers have a way to combat main's infinite."
Main building on DD isn't an infinite. It is an automatic time waster. Unlike Badham it is a much weaker time waster because it is defeated by breakable walls not god pallets.
I think you have some ideas about mid level play that just dont apply when you play against top tier players.
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Generator spread is a direct function of map size.
False. A map can be super big such as Azarov resting place(It takes like 30 second to go from one side to another) but have tight gen spread. i.e its very easy to 3 gen.
In general, the more rectangular the map, the bigger map will feel for the killer. The worse the gen spread is likely to be. Just look at old Eyrie crow shape. Its perfect rectangle. that is why the map looks big to you. In new shape, its square, so its more circular hence its smaller, as a result, the gen spread should be tighter. that is common theme with all ultra-survivor favoured maps. they're all all near perfectly shaped rectangles.
Look at Garden of joy, its near perfect rectangle. Disturbed ward. It is decently big square with rectangles sticking out which give it that rectangle big-size feel. Rotten fields, It has shape of rectangle. Look at Fractured cowshed, almost perfect rectangle. Are you starting to see pattern? These are some of the harder maps for killer.
As I said, I think your complaining about gen spread/shape over its size. You want maps to be more mini-squares so that it is easy to 3 gen kinda like Azarov's Resting Place. I think its sort of scapegoat to balancing loops/chase for killer. that is my opinion.
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And how long does it take to go from the back side of main to the generator in Shack? It's too far for any killer without mobility to defend. This map is over 11,000m². There is no way for most killers to play a "normal" game on this map.
You picked a map that is either : the killer holds a 3 gen and wins or survivors break the 3 gen and it's an easy escape. This map is broken for the majority of the killer roster because of how poorly that scenario plays out.
My friend calls the reverse of a three gen a "Y gen" (look at the shape and it's obvious). As a killer if the survivors "Y gen" you then you lose unless you've killed two of them.
-"Look at Garden of joy, its near perfect rectangle."
And? The generators are laid out in a "U" pattern. Overall combined with the broken main building and this map is nearly impossible unless the survivors are bad.
-"In general, the more rectangular the map, the bigger map will feel for the killer."
I don't think you realize you are contradicting yourself. Are you honestly trying to say it's easier to check most of the generators on Azarov's than it is on Coal Tower? That's not possible.
Gas Heaven is an unfair map because it requires the killer to go around the outside edges to check generators. Even though it is not quite as big as Azarov's it's actually much harder to win on this map unless you are a mobility killer. The patrol time gets much larger because you must make big right angle moves around the corners on a map that is not small.
One of the big points I am trying to make here is that maps should not be made in such a way that they are only fair for killers with high mobility.
Wreckers Yard is one of the most fair maps in the game. It's small and most of the generators are pretty close together around shack. The time to go around and check every generator is massively shorter than on Gas Heaven. One of the things that makes the map feel fair is because you never feel : I must hold exactly these three gens or I lose (because travel time would be way too long otherwise).
The crow map was broken because it had a 3 gen on one end and nothing else on the map was even remotely close to being defensible due to Shift+W tactics. Everyone knew this so they rushed one of the gens on main and then the killer lost.
I also am of the opinion that if a map forces a killer into three gen tactics to win then that map is also not fun/fair to the killer. Subsequently I do not think survivors enjoy maps when they are played "3 gen style".
This is an example of another map that feels "artificially" big. You either three gen on this map or the survivors walk all over you - unless you are playing a mobility killer.
That's messed up.
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I don't think you realize you are contradicting yourself. Are you honestly trying to say it's easier to check most of the generators on Azarov's than it is on Coal Tower? That's not possible.
no I am saying that maps that have wide generator spread are harder to win on as killer. Not necessarily that size equates to difficulty.
You either three gen on this map or the survivors walk all over you
that is sort of what my long post was about. I wish killer was less about 3 gen and more about actively aggressively chasing.
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"no I am saying that maps that have wide generator spread are harder to win on as killer."
So then would you agree it takes longer to patrol all five generators on coal tower than it does on Azarov's?
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Doctor and Nurse
Nurse ok, but Doctor? Really?
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It's not even true that DD's gen can't be contested. Nurse can blink up to it, Knight can pressure it with guards from below (they detect from below), projectile killers can damage survivors on it, Dredge can teleport up to it, Plague can puke on it with red puke. That's a lot of killers for an "uncontested" generator. The main in DD is also significantly weaker than a lot of other mains. It's strong but with 2-3 broken walls, it's much more manageable. It's a far cry from the infinites on Garden/Haddonfield/some iterations of Father Campbell.
Outside of that, DD is extremely small, has very condensed gens, a huge deadzone on 40% of the map (where gens spawn), and a lot of loops that can be made unsafe with breakable walls. It's one of the most killer sided maps in the game, unarguably.
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I meant Blight obviously. Not sure why I said doc.
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