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Fair hook camping/tunneling solution
So every surv hates getting facecamped or tunneled early game. It's not reportable but it's almost impossible to counter. And if you die early you get less than 9k bp and if you're okaying with a swf you have to wait a while to get back in to a game.
On the other side. If killer is getting stomped then sometimes it's the only way to get a single kill in a game. Or at least leads to a few hook trades more bp for killer AND survs.
So my suggestion is, keep the hooking mechanic normal unless killer stays within a certain range of the hook (say 24-32 metres) for more than 15 secs. If they stay withing that distance for that period of time. Have black fog cover the surv. And teleport them to a random hook at least 40m away from the killer and hide that hook's aura from the killer. This mechanic deactivates after the exit gates are powered.
It prevents face camping and tight proxy camping to get someone out early. While still allowing those plays to be used in EGCO if the killer has been struggling. And thematically it also makes sense. The Entity feeds off of the fear of the chase so repeated hooks are encouraged by her, plus the black fog is the Entity's way of transporting survivors in and around it's realm.
Comments
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So if the situation actually does call for camping, sucks to be you killer?
Also like just about any more interesting mechanic, all it takes is a Seal Team SWF Squad to make it a miserable experience
Also also, that range is insane but figuring out an ideal range would be damn near impossible. 24-36 meters on a map like The Game would be like half the damn map. But make it shorter like 12 meters where it wouldn't be a problem, all a proxy camping killer has to do is stand 13 meters away (something I see Camping Pyramid Head killers do all the time with the cages) and you haven't fixed anything.
To me, short of a complete overhaul on how the mechanics of the game works, camping (either face or proxy) isn't a strategy you're ever going to be able to remove from the game. By the very nature of how the killer gets their kills, camping is going to be a good strategy for killers and I've yet to hear a fix to this that doesn't have the problems I have listed above.
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First, 24-32 meters is HUGE distance, even bigger on small and 2 floor maps. That's not even camping at this point.
Second, like any mechanic that would punish killers for staying too long = it was tested long time ago and it didn't get pass because it was easy to be abused by Survivors.
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I’d like legitimate ways to make camping/tunneling way less viable. However, we can’t even enter that boat until we no longer have games where it’s required. The game needs to be better balanced in other words first.
Your idea would also be highly abusable.
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The only way to fix these tactics is to make the other ones viable.
That is, exactly the opposite of what has been done the last few months and what will be done in the next update.
Once you go against good teams, you have no choice to play efficiently, and since every other tool has been nerfed or made useless, well, what else can you do?
I've not played since the 1st of this month yet because of that very reason (I don't like to tunnel nor to be tunnelled).
If today I play (I'm having an overdose of what I'm playing right now), I'll probably tunnel from the start. (edit: just saying that makes me want to play something else ...)
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^ This.
I don’t like tunneling or being tunneled but the games poor balance forces you to when against high tier groups. They also keep nerfing even more all the alternative ways to win (gen slow down/slugging/split pressure)(buffing second chances) and further pushing killers to tunnel even more.
It feels like they keep forcing killers to play in an unfun way even when we don’t want to.
Tunneling isn’t the issue, the issue is all the other ways to win being made weaker and weaker and killers defaulting to the only option left. However instead of realizing this and improving those other options they just keep defaulting to seeing tunneling as the issue and continuing to nerf those other avenues, thus just making tunneling even worse.
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The only way to fix these tactics is to make the other ones viable.
Flatly untrue.
First of all, these tactics aren't always driven by viability. You and I and everyone else on these forums know damn well that it's not just viability that motivates these tactics. Killers will do it precisely because it sours the game for everyone else. That's not fixed by just buffing killers.
Secondly, who gauges how 'viable' these tactics are? The killer. Which means that yes, you could try to make the other tactics more viable, but the killer can just drop the bar and say 'No, still not viable enough' and go straight back to camping/tunnelling. This is actually a current issue too, where virtually any change the devs make will be followed up with an 'I'm gonna camp and tunnel now' thread.
Thirdly, the other tactics wouldn't just need to be 'viable', they'd need to outperform. And with tunnelling being objectively the best way to play, that would mean that the competing tactics would need to be buffed to incredibly oppressive levels.
The only way to fix these tactics is to target them with tailored nerfs until they're No Mither-tier.
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People doing things just because they're unfun for everyone else isn't a Killer exclusive problem, and it's not like tunnelling is the only unfun experience that overlaps with optimal gameplay.
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Oh, you won't hear me arguing that. I'm all for castrating bully squads and BNPs.
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Again it comes back to Maps and base Gen regression
How many Maps are truly balanced
How many Maps are Killer sided
How many Maps are Survivor sided
Now base Gen regression is so low that Killers need to run 3-4 Gen regression perks to try to counter Gen progression which is higher and perks and Toolboxes can make this higher
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I don't like being the one to give simple solutions to problems that seem complex but the problem with tunneling has a solution that is so obvious that it is not even fun speaking about it. Just increase gen time when there are 4 survivors alive and progressively increase repair speed the fewer survivors are in the game, kinda like an in-built Solo Survivor.
Tunneling is required and that's because of simple math. 4 survivors have more efficiency than 3, 3 have more than 2, and so on. The obvious solution is to balance that efficiency difference by making it similar no matter which stage of the game. In the best-case scenario, you can make killers rewarded for putting every survivor on the last hook before killing them. Without this change, I don't see the tunneling issue being resolved especially since nowadays there are so many anti-tunnel perks. Punishing killers for tunneling is not resolving the problem, but I am sure that rewarding them for not doing it will.
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I have suggested a rolling handicap for games. Like the idea.
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I don't see an issue with hook defense;
The survivor failed to hide and escape the killer in chase
The survivor is now an active objective for teammates = great bait to lure survivors
Saved or not, the killer is doing their sole objective, game counts kills not hooks or chases
Smart survivors can make saves solo or trade and Two survivors can almost guarantee the save unless major mistakes are made.
Any survivor that complains about being denied play; what were you doing the entire time prior to losing your first chase?
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Having their aura read by lethal pursuer probably. In all seriousness hook defence and hardcore tunneling/hook camping are 2 different things.
As killer I'll rotate back to hook and if I catch someone unhooking I'll usually go after them instead of the unhooked surv.
The issue is that a lot of killers will focus out one player exclusively. High mmr swfs can counter this sometimes but it is hard to do anything about. You can't say it's fair that a player gets 9k bp and dies in the first 5 mins of a match because they aren't amazing at running chase.
Lethal pursuer, you get caught early and lose first chase after a minute or so. Then once you're on hook that's it. A focused tunneler will either down anyone trying to save you or if they do manage to get you off hook then you instantly get a deep wound and then hey, you can't slip up or stop running. Or a smart killer will sinply count the time down and down you after BT ends.
Atm it's totally down to the killer, if they have a mind to focus one player out and have half a brain that player will have a short unpleasant game. Unless they are a chase god and or they have good teammates who are excellent at bodyblocking and flashbang plays.
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I'm the killer. My goal is to kill them all. Why should the order matter??
"There are 4 survivors. Why are you focusing on just 1?"
And there are 5 gens. Why are you focusing on just 1? Repair your gen to 33%, stop, and go find a new one, giving the killer a chance to regress that gen and have a chance to play the game. If you come back to the gen later, stop at 66% and go repair a new one.
Killers should shame survivors more often for tunneling gens. That, and camping gens. The survivors got Reassurance. The killers got Nowhere to Hide.
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66% Gen can be regressed to 0%.
What's option for 2 hooks survivor drop their hook count to 0? Since you making the comparison
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Git gud baby killer. ;)
I don’t tunnel. I don’t camp. I may run SH:PR but that’s about it. I lose, and I win more than I lose.
What makes killer enjoyable for me is this: I don’t go into the game NEEDING to win and with the expectation that I might lose.
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Doesn't work so well when survivors will proxy camp the hook with killer.
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Idc camping and tunneling as long my team sits on gens. At least i get chased all game, making it as hard for the killer.
Also i try to not take it personal, the killer just plays his objective as effective as possible. Which again is fine, when survs do the same with gens. Mostly i'm not mad with the killer, but with my mates.
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Injured survivors can be healed?
Hookstates are kinda more like finished gens, chase/injury/hooktime are repair progress.
But of course its asym and there arent direct equivalents.
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Yes I put it on the survivor. LP or not, the first survivor to be chased has the advantage of every loop being at full strength. Quite frankly this is the easiest chase of the match for survivors.
No survivors don't have to be great in chase, but if your not then avoid the killer with stealth and be a gen jocky. Not claiming stealth works in every situation, but not every killer is running a build to counter it.
I can't and don't see Lp as that much of an issue. Worst case for me is when the killer can close the distance before the aura wears off. Most of the time though I find there is a window between the aura and the killers arrival to take action.
Doesn't take a swf to make those saves, just survivors that understand the base conditions. Base bt and knowing how the killer functions can be more useful during a solo save then a swf just rushing the hook.
Dying in the first 5min, fine by me. Gens are fast enough that trades can get everyone to egc. Last to be hooked in endgame is almost a guaranteed escape thanks to base bt.
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Really can't agree, killer has the power in these situations. Can't expect everyone to be happy dying in the first mins, and stealth is useful IF you can get away from killer. Hard to play stealthy if you're tunneled straight off of hook leaving a blood trail, making pain grunts and in all likelyhood a deep wound for good measure.
Having all pallets on the map is a boon for survs who know how to run a good chase, a LOT of survs really don't. Even a good surv can slip up and get downed, latency around pallets etc. And if you lose that first chase and killer wants to tunnel? Game over.
If the killer puts their mind to seriously tunnel a player it's all but impossible for survs to stop them without throwing the game.
I wish there were an easy way to fix it, my suggestion definitely has it's flaws. Didn't consider map size. And I doubt bhvr will do anything major to stop tunneling anyway, they don't do many big updates that aren't new chapters. Just smaller tweaks and nerfs.
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They already gave one of the best survivor perks in the game base kit.
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Killer doesn't have the power, they have a choice and the devs have ensured that the weakest link is the right one. Spreading attention is a luxury for killer that are in control of the match. Given that is base now, getting away is easier and on the survivor as they now have to succeed at escaping their 2nd chase. Tunneling doesn't remove any chance to play, it places all of the chances in consecutive order.
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I don't have any suggestions for tunneling or camping because I have no idea how to fix it but I just want to put my two cents in for BHVR to see that this is a big issue lol.
I'm a surv main. I have close to 600 hours of playing dbd, I'm fairly new...?
Solo queue has definitely gotten better but still, survs are mostly braindead, they won't do generators, they'll hide in corners, lockers, etc. And the person who did the least manages to always get the hatch (b/c they hid the whole entire game).
Tunneling/Slugging/Camping is a huge issue and it's the reason why I play less dbd now, it's getting boring and it's not fun anymore.
I wish there was a sort of balance where both survs and killers feel good about playing what they choose to play. There should be a level of balance for both sides.
I wish gen rushing and gen regression perks didn't exist.
Although I'm def looking forward to that new perk blood rush, that is only going to encourage even more tunneling/camping.
I've seen and played with a lot of SKILLED killers who don't camp/tunnel and I have so much respect for them. I hope that bhvr does something to change things up a bit.
Please concentrate on fixing the game like making maps balanced, better perks for solo surv who play alone, FUN and UNIQUE perks, and the whole tunneling/camping issue, please!
Thanks!!!!!!!!!!
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I love this idea! I once suggested the idea where the killer cannot use the ability near the hook in a radius of 24-32 meters. But hell yeah, teleport is much better and it really solves the problem of facecamping.
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Saying the killer has the power or the choice is literally same thing. My point is it doesn't matter what the survivor does. It is down to the killer.
It's pretty simple. A tunneled survivor is at a huge disadvantage. And only extremely good chase runners have a chance to have a halfway decent game after taking a hook if killer decides to hard tunnel them.
Getting off your first hook with an instant deep wound puts you in a precarious situation. And 80-90% of survivors have little chance to survive that for long or escape unless killer decides to leave them alone.
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What the survivor does matters, not getting away due to skill is the same as a killer unable to get downs for the same reason. No doubt killers can create strongly favorable situations, but except for bubba, it's not a guarantee.
Again, survivors that know they are weak in chase should be focusing on stealth, cause it does work. Break Los and use misdirection, nobody needs to be a looping God to get away.
I really don't get the most survivors are bad standpoint. Your literally stating that it's not a matter of the games balance or mechanics but that the players themselves lack skill. I'd rather the devs focus on mechanical balance and not try to safety net bad players to higher levels.
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I'm saying the mechanics are such that the average survivor player isn't going to be able to survive being tunneled. Playing stealth is certainly viable. But you can't really switch to it after you realise you're being tunneled. Any killer with a brain can keep on you by following your scratch marks and pain grunts unless you run Off The Record. Duping and escaping the killer in the middle of a chase when you're already injured is incredibly difficult
By comparison killer is much easier to play. Comparing a killer being unable to get downs and a survivor being unable to escape a chase are two very different things. Running a chase requires much more skill. And escaping one relies, to a certain extent, on the killer being incompetent and/or not paying full attention.
But we're just talking in circles. We'll just have to agree to disagree.
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Some version of 'Dying Light' at base kit could incentivize hooking and would naturally create more time for chases.
Substantially increase points for hooking & add more hook-based tome content.
Nerfing all gen slow & speed elements could also help provide more time for chases.
With more time for chases to take place, more strict anti tunnel/camp/slug mechanics would be fine to introduce.
This might allow for a clearly desirable pathway for killers as well as boundaries against tunneling/camping/slugging that could lead to matches feeling more fair, not to mention, give us more opportunity to enjoy the most fun part of the game.
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I feel like people take "winning" way too seriously here
Yeah ofc you're going to get harder matches the more pubs you stomp, so why you complaining?
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