A simple and easy-to-implement way of reducing tunneling.
Over the past few months, a lot of people have been claiming that tunneling in DbD is out of control, some would even say that tunneling is necessary to win games at high-level. Whether you agree with this assessment or not, isn’t the point of this discussion. Personally, I am of the idea that people should play the game however they want, and in some cases tunneling someone out of the game may be the only way to turn a game around. Now that being said, I think we can all agree that being tunneled out in early game with no recourse It’s pretty ######### and contributes to a lot of the toxicity. Tunneling may be a valid strategy but right now, there is no risk for the killer to do so.
Considering that a) killer is the easiest it’s ever been and b) there should be a risk for the immense reward you get for tunneling someone out, I think the solution is actually pretty simple:
Make DS (the old one with five seconds of stun) base kit, but only after the second unhook.
Back when DS was a thing, the loss of momentum from being hit with DS would be enough to make killers think twice before going for the unhooked survivor right away. Smart killers would down the person and leave them on the ground, which would still cause another survivor to have to come pick them up. However, in some situations it would still be beneficial for the killer to go for the unhooked person if it meant taking them out of the game, just like nowadays, except with a much higher risk. Also, if you enjoy tunneling, you’re free to do so after their first hook. Survivors on death hook tend to play a lot safer in general anyway. And if you’re a survivor who tries to use DS offensively, well, you’re dead. Win-win.
Now of course, I understand that this would be a strong change, but I think it can be tweaked in a way that it isn’t super scuffed. As a killer who rarely tunnels I don’t feel that this would affect me much. Making it after second hook would also mean that this is more of a mid-late game mechanic, which would allow killers to still build pressure in early game. I’m not sure if this would be too much paired with base kit unbreakable. What do you guys think? Decisive strike would have to be reworked, but that’d be a lot easier than creating a new mechanic.
Comments
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Simply make it so you can never hook the same person twice unless they are the last person alive. Done.
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I think that's what they were going for with blood rush (lol lol) But fr- if that were the case what do you propose happens to DS? Would your basekit DS disable if hooks are spread out? Disables during EGC?
I agree with what's usually said on here, the only way to truly fix it is if killers are rewarded for hooks and not kills. Alternatively, just give me a BP compensation that scales with how hooks are spread and I'll never complain about getting tunneled again.
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No Thanks. I don't need no scuffed system preventing me from taking advantage of Survivor Mistakes.
I surely hope bHVR is wise enough to EVER indulge such ideas as they would only allow Survivors to do more things without the Killer having any impact on the game. Killers are a playable side, they are not cattle. We need to be able to make a choice and respond to what the Survivors do. Not have automatic systems in place that prevent us from responding.
How about Survivors don't unhook their team-mates next to the Killer.
How about Survivors actually try to escape from the Killer instead of trying to take a consequence free hit after being unhooked.
Survivors have so many options for tunnel retaliation when they are unhooked, but few want to use a Perk slot for it.
Its their choice, Their consequences. They just don't want to deal with it.
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Yeah, pretty much everything you said is wrong except for that the system would be scuffed.
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Haha yup. I wanted to mention it as it might be something they actually consider down the line. Knowing BHVR anyway. xD
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When you get unhooked in solo queue with no choice to stop it happening and then the killer hard tunnels you and your teammates don't take the hit 🥰🥰
Guess I just shouldn't have tried to take the BT hit.
Why punish one survivor for the mistakes of the other? There should be a system in play to punish the unhooker for a terrible unhook, instead of allowing the unhooker to get away scot free with their mistake at the expense of someone else who had no say in the matter.
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Or when the killer slaps the unhooker and then ignores them to go after you anyway.
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This doesn't really always boil down to survivor mistakes though. It's not like survivors always have a choice about unhooking next to the killer. If you're just carelessly farming your teammates/instantly saving behind the killer's back before they can walk away, then yeah that's poor survivor play, but if the killer is never leaving the hook then at some point you can't really blame survivors for trying to rescue near them anymore.
I'm not convinced that basekit DS is necessarily the best solution, but perks on both sides should be useful options that give you a better chance of victory, not requirements to counter a specific playstyle from your opponent. Camping and tunneling are too effective of strategies for how easy they are especially with certain killers, and it doesn't help that the best perk against tunneling was nerfed harder than it needed to be which mostly erased the deterrence factor it used to have.
Of course, that's not to say survivors never make bad plays in this regard. Do some survivors needlessly farm their teammates or make stupid plays after being unhooked? Absolutely. There's no denying that. But that doesn't mean all of them are and it's not always survivors making poor choices/stupid decisions that get them killed ALL the time.
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But how do you punish the unhooker? The only thing that sort of does that is Make Your Choice.
Giving more protection to the unhooked survivor doesn't punish the unhooker for doing something, no matter how many anti-tunnelling effects you stacked.
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Nice non-argument, I think you should ask bHVR to add more Killer bots so you can have the automatic experience you want.
Its not my problem that your teammates are making mistakes, I should not get punished for mistakes the other side does.
Guess I just shouldn't have tried to take the BT hit.
You made your choice. You got a free shield to escape and you use it to antagonize the Killer, and then you come complaining too? You should run away. Its not my problem if you want to do unsafe plays.
This doesn't really always boil down to survivor mistakes though. It's not like survivors always have a choice about unhooking next to the killer.
Wrong, its always a choice and it IS a Survivor Mistake. Ask your Team-mates to stop making bad mistakes. If the Killer is Face-camping. do gens. The reason Camping is effective is because nobody does Gens. Plus you can even bring Reassurance if you feel you need more time. There is no way this is a Killer problem.
Post edited by Emeal on8 -
just make mmr based on hooks. boom solved
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Well… if survivors didn’t hurt and troll themselves into misery, we could give them a secondary button that when pushed/held, the survivor on hook could grab and curl up (like trying to take yourself off of hook) but instead of attempting to jump off you would just be locking yourself in place.
If survivor see you are locked up then it would be pointless to try and save you so responsibly lock up if you are camped or if you see a bad play about to happen. Take the control out of the sandbaggers hands and stop blaming Killers for making the most beneficial option in a 4v1 situation~
Edit: Boom Solved
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The replacement for ds is otr. On nightlight.gg it shows otr being ran 10% of the time and the stats for 6.1 changes had ds at 50%. So players are complaining about tunneling being stronger while not running the perk that is designed for that purpose. It's pretty glaring that otr is not a sufficient perk at punishing tunneling. The solution to this is make otr actually punish tunneling and see where that goes.
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just replace all the hooks on the map with party tables!!
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I'm not sure simply punishing the killer for tunneling is the right move. If I were to start a match as killer, get an early hook and 2 gens are still gone after 60 seconds even a 10 seconds DS wouldn't stop me from tunneling that poor soul's ass. Yeah, it's risky but it might be the only shot I have at winning this game. No matter how much you punish tunneling, with the killer feeling like they have no other way to compete they'll still do it.
I believe making hook spreading more attractive might help with that. Right now there is no reward whatsoever for hooking multiple people. Quite the opposite actually with perks like Deliverance and soon Blood Rush as well as DH and medkits. The killer can prevent all of these things from coming back to bite them later by tunneling one survivor.
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Maybe if it only applied to the first survivor hooked.
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Then we will see 4 hooks 4K bubba stay at low MMR to play against potato teams.
And Killers like me aim for 8 hooks then let people escape to play against Ayrun squad.
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Sounds good on paper but I think that could be abused.
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This is exactly where I’m getting at. If killers want to tunnel, the point is not to make it impossible to do so, but to make it a last resort tactic. So yeah you’d be able to do it if you have to, but the trade off would be eating the DS and potentially lose your momentum. It may work in some scenarios, but right now it’s too easy for killers to get free kills by simply tunneling someone out with no risk, which is why it’s so prevalent these days. Face camping for example, you can still do it but most people won’t because it’s not beneficial to do so except in very specific circumstances. I believe tunneling should be the same way.
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I mostly agree. Though I think it's very dependent on the player, if they think tunneling is necessary. Some people will deem tunneling necessary right off the bat, while others will only do it, if they absolutely need to. On top of that, the earlier a killer begins to tunnel the more likely they will recover from eating a DS. If it's already a last resort (at like 2 gens with both to be completed soon and little to no pressure) eating a DS is very risky and can easily stop what little momentum the killer had. Tunneling right off the bat however will still be a rather safe move still. If you get someone out quick enough, the other survivors are pretty much screwed no matter if they were hooked before or how many resources there still are. This could then lead to some more people tunneling at 5 gens when they really wouldn't need to. That's also kind of the point I tried to make by listing these different perks. They hit harder, if the killer doesn't tunnel. So, why even risk it and then getting screwed by DS when you can't afford it?
Camping always had a reputation as being quite risky while tunneling was regarded as a safer way to play the game as killer. A buff to DS likely will not change that.
This is why I think it should be more rewarding to spread hooks and simultaneously riskier to tunnel. If spreading hooks had the potential to work better than tunneling more people would do it.
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It is a very good thing you are not in charge of balance.
I also enjoy the insinuation that I'm a Survivor main. Very amusing.
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"You made your choice. You got a free shield to escape and you use it to antagonize the Killer, and then you come complaining too? You should run away. Its not my problem if you want to do unsafe plays."
That's the point. I didn't. I held W in the opposite direction and still got tunneled.
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Even something as simple as the ability to reject being unhooked if the killer is within a 32m/40m range would do it.
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if the killer camps, it would only count as 1 hook out of 12, instead of 1 out of 4 kills there fore that killers mmr is lowered.
idk how to fix tunneling, cant really fix that, if the killer wants you dead then they can
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That's because OTR, the alleged new anti-tunnel perk, is, itself, hard-countered by tunnelling. If you get slapped during the basekit BT, OTR gets disabled.
The move from DS to OTR was an absolutely terrible one, as it's worse on both sides. OTR is significantly weaker against both tunnelling and camping, but it's better at punishing killers who do not use those methods. It's a double whammy of failure.
My suggestion: A survivor that's pulled off the hook gets 60 seconds of 'Desperation', which removes collision with the killer. Desperation is immediately removed upon performing a conspicuous action. If a survivor is picked up by the killer while they have Desperation, they stun the killer for 3 seconds, and Desperation is removed.
Then: DS increases the duration of the stun from 3 to 6 seconds.
OTR: Reworked. Now, instead of granting endurance, it instead removes scratch marks, grunts of pain, pools of blood, and blocks aura reading. Total information black-out.
That way, there's innate anti-tunnel, it can't be used offensively, DS goes back to being useful, and OTR gets to be a higher risk, higher reward anti-tunnel perk.
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Nah, its a good thing YOU are not in charge on balance..
Oh I was not insinuating that, Its clearly possible you like to play Killer like a Robot.
Untrue! you told us in your comment:
Guess I just shouldn't have tried to take the BT hit.
That IS an unsafe play. Sorry if you don't like that actions get you killed, but that's the way DbD is.
Post edited by Emeal on0 -
While this is an interesting idea, I don’t think adding more protection to the unhooked survivor is the right way to go about it.
If a killer wants to tunnel you, they’re going to tunnel you no matter how many lives you have. All this change would do is make the unhooked survivor abuse their protection more, like they do with base kit BT already.
The best option is to give the killer reason to actually go for someone else. If they somehow make it so going for the unhooked survivor is more rewarding, then killers will be less likely to go for the tunnel. And it makes using BT defensively a good strat as even though you are probably going to lose another hook state, you’ve denied the killer their “reward” for not tunneling, a sort of risk reward type play for both sides.
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So you want to buff surviors by giving them one of the strongest perk that has been abused for so many years ? Survivors have enough things that need slight nerfs such as DH, COH. You should understand why very few people are playing killer ( it is much much harder )
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That IS an unsafe play. Sorry if you don't like that actions get you killed, but that's the way DbD is.
Read his entire post, it's blatantly obvious he's being sarcastic.
Pre 6.1 DS was the most healthy perk the game's ever had, dude. Just because you can't stop yourself from faceplanting into it doesn't mean the perk is a problem.
Post edited by EQWashu on3 -
Read his entire post, it's blatantly obvious he's being sarcastic.
It does not matter if their response was or not. I have met Survivors who think like that so its well deserved a response anyway.
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That's what we in the industry call "sarcasm", a very common trait amongst people.
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Its so hard these days to differentiate a troll, from an bad faith actor, from someone who is badly informed, but the solution is to treat them the same. That being consider what they say and respond to it no matter what your bias about the person is, it does not matter what the intention of the interlocutor is to me.
Post edited by Emeal on3 -
You need to keep it simple on changing it. The base for otr is fine but it needs fixing, so the solution to that is to fix the cracks in the foundation and not remove the entire thing and pour a new one. The base bt should be cut in half for the endurance and double the speed boost you get; this would be a 5s bt with 20% speed boost for 10s. Then let otr work like mettle of man ( stacks with endurance) and remove the IW from it.
The IW on otr is terrible game design because you tell the killer you have the perk. This also means that since you are telling the killer you have it that you also say when you don't. This was also problem when they changed ds from god mode to an anti-tunnel perk and players stopped using it. If there was no obsession in the game the killer knew there wasn't ds in play and would tunnel everyone.
The last thing I would do is make otr deactivate when fully healed. This is another precaution so players don't take this anti-tunnel perk and offensively use it to punish killers that are not tunneling.
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Indeed, I turn off my brain when I play Killer and I still win 95% of my games.
It's why I've started dabbling in comp
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I don't know you @GoodBoyKaru, nor have I claimed to know you. I don't know what point you are making by bringing attention to my Personal Twitter Account here on the forum. But is it really necessary to bring up here to any point of argument??
I was not specifically talking about you and I did edit my original post to make it more clear that my approach is in general.
I was not trying to make a personal attack against you and I am sorry if you thought so. Not my intention. If that is why you bring up stuff that happens on other accounts.
Regardless like I tried to explain in the edited post above, I does not really face cause I bet someone will be serious about it even tho the person I talked to was not. So its worth talking about it even so.
Update: Seems their Comment got removed.
Post edited by Emeal on2 -
Agreed.
As the game is currently constructed, tunneling will always be an option for Killers.
Perhaps instead of attempting to punish Killers for tunneling, it might be more effective to incentivize Killers to NOT tunnel.
For example, (basekit effect) after a Killer first hooks a Survivor, if the next Survivor hooked is a different one, the gen with the most progress is blocked for 10, 15, 20 seconds, or something like that. This effect lasts as long as a survivor isn't hooked twice in a row.
If the Killer hooks the same Survivor twice in a row, this effect is deactivated for the remainder of the trial.
(Grim Embrace, in its current state, is a poorly constructed perk; it should probably be reworked altogether into something different.)
Perhaps add basekit 5-second DS.
Re-add BBQ & Chili bloodpoint multiplier. (I understand that items in the bloodweb are cheaper, but there are only upsides to keeping the multiplier.) It was perfectly designed to incentivize Killers to NOT tunnel. The Killer could see his next potential target across the map and potentially gain more bloodpoints by hooking a different Survivor. Plus, there was the satisfaction of seeing a stack for each unique survivor hooked.
In similar fashion,
Re-buff Pop Goes the Weasel to 25% of total gen progression (instead of current progression). It was perfectly designed to incentivize Killers to NOT camp. The Killer could do substantial targeted gen regression, but only by leaving the hook to kick the gen.
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Agreed.
As the game is currently constructed, tunneling will always be an option for Killers.
Perhaps instead of attempting to punish Killers for tunneling, it might be more effective to incentivize Killers to NOT tunnel.
For example, (basekit effect) after a Killer first hooks a Survivor, if the next Survivor hooked is a different one, the gen with the most progress is blocked for 10, 15, 20 seconds, or something like that.
If the Killer hooks the same Survivor twice in a row, this effect is deactivated for the remainder of the trial.
(Grim Embrace exists, but, in it's current state, it's poorly constructed. It should probably be reworked into something completely different.)
Perhaps add basekit 5-second DS.
Re-add BBQ & Chili bloodpoint multiplier. (I understand that items in the bloodweb are cheaper, but there are only upsides to keeping the multiplier.) It was perfectly designed to incentivize Killers to NOT tunnel. The Killer could see his next potential target across the map and potentially gain more bloodpoints by hooking a different Survivor. Plus, there was the satisfaction of seeing a stack for each unique survivor hooked.
In similar fashion,
Re-buff Pop Goes the Weasel to 25% of total gen progression (instead of current progression). It was perfectly designed to incentivize Killers to NOT camp. The Killer could do substantial targeted gen regression, but only by leaving the hook to kick the gen.
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I agree with all of this except the part about BBQ. The BP economy in this game is already.... Pretty awful.
Maybe it's just me but I don't like the idea of everyone running the strongest items, addons and offerings all the time. And we already have that. Bringing back the bonus BP BBQ used to have would only make that worse. Apart from that, what do I do with so many BP? I can unlock perks quicker and grind prestige but in the end the only thing I gain is a pretty number and stacks of thousands of addons I will never be able to use.
Instead, I would like to see more perks (BBQ included) getting stronger the more unique hooks the killer has. You could add an additional lingering effect of 1 second per survivor hooked to BBQ or something similar.
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With all due respect I do not think this is good for the games health. Penalizing killers for tunneling even more will not stop them. Giving survivors more freebies for making mistakes will not help the situation either.
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And then hardcore tunnelers will end up against bad survivors and they'll get even more wins. Plus it means people new to the game will just get put against tunnelers nearly every game.
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I would never hook anyone then lol, kill everyone but according because done without hooks then i am very bad killer. free to kill newbies
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The idea is not to eliminate tunneling. But killers should not be able to get away with taking someone out of the game early for free. If you want to tunnel go ahead, but knowing you’ll get hit with DS will force you to decide whether securing the kill is worth the extra time it takes to focus on the survivor that just got unhooked. How’s that bad for the game? It literally only affects tunnelers. Survivors who perform a conspicuous action immediately would lose the effect. Why is it a freebie for me as a survivor to have a recourse against being taken out of the game immediately after an unhook?
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Can hardly call it a freebie when it costs a hook state to use.
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6.1.0 - we are nerfing meta on both sides, oh except BT it's actually getting a buff and going base kit.
Survivors : "also buff ds and make it basekit too pls. Killers got .2 seconds off gen kick time!!"
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I say let the killer tunnel, BUT, penalize them heavily. I know they get a small loss to BP progress if they are in vicinity of an unhooking, but I think it should be much worse. Really stick it to them, have it grow like bloodlust. If you stick around the hook, you start to lose more and more BPs.
But if you dont like that idea, have killers get negative bloodlust for being in range of a hooked survivor. Might get abused, but so does everything eventually.
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Tunneling only works because you let it work. I'd bet most of the people complaining about tunneling also run dead hard. Surprise! Dead hard is countered by tunneling. Once i know a survivor has dead hard, i'll do my best to hit them just as they get unhooked to put them into deep wounds, then tunnel them. That way i only have to deal with 1 health state rather than letting them heal up and then a future chase being 3 health states.
If you don't want to get tunneled, run OTR and sprint burst. It means the killer can't really hit you after you get unhooked before you get somewhere safe, and OTR gives you a second health state for 90 seconds. And if the killer doesn't hit you until that 90 seconds up, then you definitely won the chase anyway.
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Keep it on. Next year we'll have 3 surv second chance perks as basekit. 10 secs. BT, Unbreakable beeing worked on, asked for DS and hey - solo players need even more help, let's give them basekit Kindred on top. So each surv will be able to run 8 perks in total, not even counting medkits and toolboxes. That will definitly stop killers from tunneling. Because the reason they do it isn't it's needed and their objective, it's always personal and to easy to do. /s
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1. Increase hook stage timers by 10-15 seconds.
This should have been done when gens were increased to 90 seconds. Does nothing but hurt killers that camp early game. If survivors are crouching around observing the hook, the killer can still justifiably patrol and lose nothing. If Bubba face camps someone, the survivors stand a much better chance of finishing the gens before the first death.
2. Buff / rework killer perks to reward spreading hooks.
Grim Embrace: increase it from 45 to 60 seconds, allow it to trigger again at 8 hooks if all survivors are still alive. Deactivates if you hook the same survivor twice in a row. Shows all survivor auras instead of just the obsession.
3. Buff / rework survivor anti-camp and anti-tunnel perks
DS: bring it back to 5 seconds
OTR: like someone suggested elsewhere, remove the Endurance part, but block injured cries, scratch marks, blood pools, and aura reading.
Camaraderie: let it trigger automatically or keep the teammate trigger stipulation but let it work on both hook states.
Reassurance: increase the range just enough that it can be triggered from above the basement. Right now if a killer is camping the basement stairs, there's no way to activate it.
4. Nerf / rework survivor perks that severely limit spreading pressure.
CoH would be a big one here. I'm not really sure how to fix it without making it useless unless they rework the boon mechanic entirely.
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