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are any of the maps in this game actually balanced for killer players?
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Groaning doesn't have many good three gens spots at all? The gen spread is awful, there's gens guaranteed to spawn in four different corners.
What do you mean 3-gen or gtfo is broke?
Lery's is one of the best Killer maps for non-mobility Killers imo. It's got 3 or 4 strong pallets, RNG dependent vaults and a whole lot of LoS blockers.
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2.) I'd say there are way more unsafe pallets on Haddonfield than safe one's.
3.) There are no infinites.
4.) There are no infinites.
5.) The map also tends to load up one side with gens and few pallets, so just avoid the middle.
5.1) Ironworks main building isn't really that strong. Maybe if they have CoH, but the map itself has tiles fairly spaced out with some dead zones mixed in.
7.) The Game has a lot of pallets but the fact that it's a TINY map with bad LoS and bad gen spread closes the gap imo.
9.) There are a fair amount of pallets, but most are unsafe and easy to mindgame. It's also indoors with limited LoS, Survivors often don't know exactly where you are.
11.) Midwich has some absolutely awful pallets. There's maybe TWO safe pallets on that entire map.
14.) RPD is a miserable experience but it's incredibly easy to three gen and some of the pallets are ######### awful.
18.) There are still no infinites.
I'm glad that we've covered that you think every map in the game is Survivor-sided lol
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-"Lery's is one of the best Killer maps for non-mobility Killers"
The library is insanely strong. There is only a strong 3 gen guaranteed on one end of the map. There are so many things about this map that suck. This map has a ton of vaults that lead to more vualts/pallets.
You can hide literally anywhere and you can't see startled birds from 50m away. This is most definitely not a killer map.
-"What do you mean 3-gen or gtfo is broke?"
I enjoy playing Nemesis. if I play suffocation pit I claim one end of the map and that's my side. They cant touch the 4 gen on that side. if they do I hurt them. Eventually all the pallets are gone and someone goes down. Then I camp them to death. This is very boring but it is how you win 90% of your games on this map.
The same strategy is the only way to win on Azerov's and RPD. You use attrition to remove pallets and don't commit to any chases unless someone is out of position and you can down them quickly.
Maps that are fair like : wrecker's yard and Abattoir are small so you can make a 3 gen with most of the generator options.
-"Groaning doesn't have many good three gens spots at all? The gen spread is awful"
The last time I played this map it was a 10 second walk to go from gen A to B to C. I could see gens C and A from generator B.
You haven't learned where to hold the right gens on this map yet.
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The Library has a single pallet that can be easily forced out. The window isn't strong either.
Oh, I see. You agree that those maps a fairly Killer-sided as there's not much Survivors can do against a war of attrition when gens are split unfairly by RNG. Gotcha.
These are the gen spawn locations that I remember on Groaning Storehouse. Many of these cannot spawn all at once. A gen is guaranteed in the following sections: 7 or 6 and 3 or 4. There will usually be one in 11 as well.
That's THREE corners opposite of each other. Trust me, I know my gen spawns. Are you sure you're thinking of the right map?
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No he is right, Growning storehouse is balanced by its 3 gens. The 3 gen is not impossible break because one of generator spawns near shack which is strong loop. Shack in this map can often be instant-win button for killer in terms of camping if the basement spawns there. very strong for killer such as Hag basement.
The 3 gen combination is 8, 7, 6 or 5 and 5,2,3,4. Growning storehouse is survivor sided map however it has poor gen distribution for survivor meaning that killer can balance the map by 3 gen similar to maps like Azeroth resting place. The upper 3 gen(5,2,3,4) is pretty scary though because it is easy to create giant dead-zone and easy hook camps if the killer hooks the survivor on hook 4.
If your facing Top-level SWF team, the generator to push are gen 6 and gen 4 at the start of the match. You always prioritize these gens regardless your spawn position as survivor. If the killer has good macro play, they will immediately attempt to interrupt you from doing these gens right at the start of the match. A really strong play for survivor to stealth/hide at the start of the match when doing these gens to waste the killer time at the of the match. Gen 4, 6 and gen 8 I refer to these as "High tension gens". You go to these gens IF you want to get chased as survivor at the start of the match. If the killer is heavily invested in defending that area, It might be impossible complete gen but you can keep killer worried in staying that area which allow your team to pressure other generators around the map. If you find a survivor on these high tension gens, expect survivor to have an anti-tunnel build such as Decisive strike+DH+Off the record etc. The gen 9, 1, 2, 11, 2 are safe generator. you go to these generator if your on death hook.
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Autohaven, MacMillan, Red Forest and The Borgo actually got a sort of shadow nerf on PTB and as far as Im aware it did reach live. Its a change that prevents the repeat tiles, meaning you cant have things like 3 jungle gyms spawn right next to each other, or Suffo Pits infamous 5 T-L walls in the middle. Only one of them can spawn per seed.
Asylum and Coldwind still dont follow this rule tho, and its probably because they havent made any new tiles for them yet like they did for Autohaven and MacMillan.
I expect changes to them soon, especially Coldwind. Hopefully we get a pass on map sizes as well after that
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I think it's one of the those grass is always greener thing. Play some survivor and I swear there isn't a pallet any where on some maps
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Coal tower is probably the most balanced map, but pretty inconsistent spawns
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This is not true. Rancid Abattoir is the only fair corn map. It's ~8700m² and I win something like 97% of games on this map.The worst corn map in my opinion is Torment Creek which is ~10750m². I lose something like 95% of games on this map. I only win if survivors play it real dumb and let me three gen on the strong side of the map.You're probably being sarcastic on the numbers here, but is the premise a map is fair if you have an overwhelming win percentage on it?
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Where is this map from? I'd like to see the source.
If I get a spawn of : 6/5/8 or 4/2/5 it's literally impossible for me to lose. The last time I played this map I actually used 8/9/10 as Michael Myers. Unless you play Bamboozle all the time you can't really neutralize main but Infinite T3 MM definitely does that.
"No he is right, Growning storehouse is balanced by its 3 gens."
Thank you- appreciate the validation.
The other thing that makes Storehouse fair is that there is huge RNG on the number of pallets. Otz did a video of "worst RNG possible" and someone found a variation on GS with maybe 6 pallets or less.
Nerf? I think not.
Do you like near infinite loops? Because this is how you make an infinite loop. Red forest needs to be killswitched. Thankfully my game crashes when that map tries to load. It's a shame I get that bug often.
Actually the devs need to rework the vault mechanic as follows: To get a fast vault you must be running in the direction parallel to the window for 0.75 seconds or it will be at best a medium vault.
Last night my friend found an even bigger exploit on Red Forest he was going to show me.
A map is fair if :
- It's under 9000m² in size
- It has multiple possible 3 gen locations
- The tiles are not massively interlinked (this is why coal tower is not a fair map).
My numbers are not made up. Out of the last 20+ games on Torment Creek I have won once as Nemesis. This win was due to massive survivor incompetence.
I have won 20/21 games on Rancid Abattoir with one tie. If I recall correctly there was something fishy about that game because one of the generators went from 0 to 100 in about 40 seconds and no one with HF+toobox was alive. There was only one person working the generator as one person was dead, another was in chase and the other person was healing/booning/disinfecting/starting a gen at 0 progress.
The map is small. The tiles do not link well and after a few pallets are used the dead zones become massive. The main building loop is weak and easily countered.
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I have won 20/21 games on Rancid Abattoir with one tie.Okay, then how is that map fair? Because that doesn't sound 'fair', that sounds massively killer sided.
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You know what, Im definitely going to have the unpopular opinion here, but I think Dead Dawg is one of the most neutral leaning maps in the game, and is an example of really well done balance since it does not lean towards a particular side.
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Every single map rework so far was absolutely survivor sided, the same goes for all of the newer map releases. The devs promised years ago to do better and they've yet to keep their word. It's just one disappointment after another.
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MMR is a horrible system, you can face god-like teams as Killer, or face people with 2 hours on the game, because MMR does not measure skill but measure the proxy for skill (which, as you might guess, is an incredibly flawed system).
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As a statistic win rate is a poor indicator of balance without an understanding of why.
Do me a favor and please read the discussion we have been having about Groaning Storehouse. I'll post the picture he linked if you can't be bothered.
If you are the average joe noob you probably don't know where the gens spawns are without a map like this. I can tell you for example that Generator #2 is almost never inside the jungle gym. There is always a generator at #4, #6 or #7 and #10 or#11 or #12; consequently these are the most equal distant generators you can hold.
I said before It's basically an automatic win if I get to hold # 6, #5 and #8 (or #9). If you don't know that I am trying to hold that three gen and blast other areas of the map you are in for a world of hurt when I hook a survivor in the #6 tile. You will not get in without taking a hit and you most likely will trade. Then I will stand at the X tile on #8 and wait for the next trade. Nobody is allowed to touch any of the gens in that area.
Basically the survivors messed up if they allow me to do this. I bring perks like Bamboozle and Save the Best for last to minimize chase times and make rescues even more punishing.
Anybody who doesn't see my strategy coming is in for an equal amount of despair when we play abattoir. I don't have a map handy for Abattoir but you can three gen around main, you can 3 gen on the side away from shack and you can 3 gen on the opposite side on the corner away from shack. The take away point here is that it's not dead dawg saloon where there is one viable 3 gen and you lose when that vanishes.
All of those locations are very strong just like groaning storehouse. I can stand in a position to protect a 3 gen while I watch you die on hook. But I don't need to do that on this map because it is small. Overall there are a few strong pallets; once they are gone chases get very short. I tunnel and protect my 3 gen and the possibility to lose vanishes quickly.
When I play survivor on this map I blast the generators that make a 3 gen possible. Most people don't think about DBD in this way. They think : blasting any old generator is fine.
Going back to the Storehouse example if you have gens at #4 / #11 /#6 you have what my friend calls a "Y" gen. Experienced players that understand the game know which generators to finish to make the killer always have a "Y" gen.
What do Nurse/Blight and Sadako have in common? Every generator combination is a 3 gen. Nurse and Blight however are extremely lethal in chase in addition to having crazy map traversal. Almost every other killer in the game needs the map size to be small for it to be fair.
Why?
Small maps organically allow you to interrupt one person while chasing another. This does not happen on large maps because there is so much free space. More space equals less likely chance for any of the 5 moving objects on a map to have a collision if they were all set to move randomly.
Small maps have less room to shift W. This is incredibly important for M1 killers. Abattoir always has two L/T walls by shack. If you bring Bamboozle that obstacle becomes a death trap unless you have Lithe armed and ready. Bamboozle also trivializes Shack and the main building. This reinforces the emphasis sooner on pallet use which ultimately makes all the chases much shorter faster.
To make a long story short : my perk build+ killer choice is very difficult to beat on a map like Abattoir because almost nobody takes Nemesis seriously. If you used my build and played the map I play it - I could probably beat you with a proper SWF team who played around my level. Most people I play against would probably do much better if we played two games in a row with everything the same on the same map. But that's not how the RNG match making works.
Along the same lines imagine you played two games in a row vs a Demo using whistle+ Devour Hope. In the second game you know exactly what to do. Nobody touches any generators until he comits to a chase. You only start really playing the game when DH is destroyed.
My win strategy works because nobody sees it coming. As a matter of fact - almost every streamer I stream snipe always says "Bamboozle?! on Nemesis? " When you pick perks you can either take something to fix a problem or you can take something to make what you have even better. Most people that know how to loop very well become almost powerless in a chase against Bamboozle as it basically removes something like 3000-5000 hours of gameplay knowledge in terms of how well you can continue to loop me.
Bam essentially forces pallets to drop much faster or you give me a free hit. If you give me a hit then I get a stack (why would I chase the obsession first - lol) and if you dont then I get the pallet. How many pallets are there on Abattoir?
Main building has 1 by the haybale.
Shack has 1 pallet.
Backside has 2 jungle gyms/pallet gyms with pallets.
Frontside corner away from shack has 1 jungle gym.
Shack corner hay has 1 pallet.
There is usually 1 filler pallet between shack and backside that could be used to lead to main
There is 1 filler pallet on the backside of main near some hay that leads to the corner pallet gym.
Is there a pallet I am missing? That's 8 pallets. Most of the time I only chase on one side of the map which means at most I use up 4 pallets (chases against the last person with everyone else down don't really count).
Do me a favor and think for a moment. Have you thought about Abattoir as much as I have? Can you recall all of the possible 3 gen locations by memory? Did you know where all the pallets spawns were before I mentioned them? My guess is : probably not.
At a guess I suspect that 95% of the people I play against on Abattoir don't have the same knowledge of the map that I do. This contributes heavily for their inability to have a winning tactic against me.
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When I play survivor on this map I blast the generators that make a 3 gen possible. Most people don't think about DBD in this way. They think : blasting any old generator is fine.Do me a favor and think for a moment. Have you thought about Abattoir as much as I have? Can you recall all of the possible 3 gen locations by memory? Did you know where all the pallets spawns were before I mentioned them? My guess is : probably not.At a guess I suspect that 95% of the people I play against on Abattoir don't have the same knowledge of the map that I do.Here's the problem: the thing that you are using as evidence, the intense deep dive into the map and how to play it, makes you an outlier. You're right, I haven't thought about the map as much as you (you just typed 1129 words to a simple 17 word question), I have very little opinion on map balance, but the vast majority of the player base doesn't think about the maps that way either.
The key words you typed were:
Most people don't think about DbD this way. It's those most people that the game is, and has to be, balanced around.0 -
i agree with this...old map came down to three genning the middle of the map and two back gens most of the time even with good chases
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where is the part that i said that every map in the game is survivor side? tell me... Don't put words that i never used into my mouth please... regarding infinite maybe i should specify better what i mean... for infinites forgive me if i wasn't clear enough: i don't describe the loops like the old ones where the killer can't reach in any possible way a survivor that will go there, for infinites i mean loops that alone are strong enough to make the killer loose all 5 gens if you aren't completely braindead at looping (even an belove average survivor with a modicum of brain can do this). Obviously you must avoid those places at all costs unless you are hunting the last 2 remaining survivors and/or you can allow yourself to waste time in that way, but those aren't valid reasons to left those places in this awful state, so my points stand still, also for the other points:
2 the main problem as i said aren't pallets, it's fair that survivors have some pallets that are safer than others, the problems are that those usually are always near the strongest loops of this map, once you start chaining those loops it will become a nightmare if you aren't using someone that has a strong antiloop power... the other problem are the houses present in this cursed map
5 "just avoid the middle" you see this is the problem, you can't since survivor can easily split the map in 2 sides and when you are chasing someone off the gens everyone will literally run in that place because they know that here they'll have the upper hand... again, bad maps should be adressed correctly from both sides instead of playing around them
7 the game ISN'T a tiny map since you must consider that it has 2 floors and you can't travel fast between each floor everytime unless you are a nurse
9 fair isn't suited for that map, same regarding unsafe... this map has a lot of safe pallets and the unsafe ones are usually linked with windows. No LoS is applied to killers too if we want to be picky, not to mention that survivors can play around this problem with certain perks (spine chill, alert, fogwise, premonition, etc etc), while the killer has only a single perk that could be helpful regarding this and it's situational since it require that survivors will trigger that perk (i'm all ears)
11 https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ay2Mv-UNJmc you are welcome
14 first of all 3 gen happen because survivor allow it, so again it's a bad play for the survivor doing something like that and the unsafe pallets are only the one in the small room near the basement and the one to the left to the exit gate present in the main hall, everything else is safe
I'm glad that we've covered that you think that playing killer is easy generally speaking when those maps have those issues...
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Bro RPD is so good if you're a trapper Main. I get a 4-stack every time I go there.
I think most indoor maps are very Killer oriented, they're generally smaller and depending on who you're running you'll have higher success.
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-"You're right, I haven't thought about the map as much as you .... I have very little opinion on map balance"
Playing this map incorrectly is in some ways like bringing a sniper rifle to a battle royale map with sight lines better suited for shotguns.
If you could turn my DBD knowledge into perfect AI replications : 4 copies of me as survivor would beat killer me on Abattoir - because I don't play Nurse or Blight. I don't feel those two killers that work should be the measuring stick of balance but in many ways they are.
When you consider every other farm map - I could get stomped by 4 copies of a friend of mine who is much worse at the game than I am.
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depends on the map... i wouldn't call the game as killer sided unless you are doc maybe or legion with iri button.
rpd wasn't designed with trapper in mind since it is so easy to block the narrow doorways with a trap it is beautiful.
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the farm maps are the most unbalanced maps in the game...the way the rng tiles can chain (especially shack into jungle gym into cow tree) are disgusting
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I would argue that there are more broken maps. Garden of Joy is almost impossible to win and there is no redeeming quality to it. Knight map has tons of pallets is big and has one viable 3 gen that always gets broken early.
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i agree on both counts...both of those maps need to be trimmed to smaller sizes
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The killer tutorial map is pretty good for killers.
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No map should be larger than 9000m². That's one of the core game issues when you have most of the killers lacking mobility. If the killer has no mobility then the survivors can just pre run and you have no ability to pressure. Likewise if the killer has no mobility then you can just shift+W to prolong chase. Larger maps make shifting more viable.
One of the key designs of the smaller older maps was that you chase someone and during that chase you come along someone working on a generator who is now also being pressured. Massive maps never have that happen so you are almost afk on your gen oblivious to far away chases.
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As Killer I actually like the current RPD map.
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There's a few maps that lean one way or the other but the only map that I'd say is actually firmly killer-sided is Midwich. The other indoor maps lean killer sided especially The Game but I don't think they're quite as bad.
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Garden of Joy is also survivor sided in the way how tiles are built. There are a lot of holes through which you can the killer. The same with AH but on AH you need to learn checkspots, while on the Garden you have legit wallhack if you just up your camera. Didn’t see anyone mention it.
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No map is perfectly balanced, and never will be.
All maps are viable for killer and survivor.
I really wish people would stop freaking out about maps such much. It leads to map homogenisation where every map is just an open field with a main building in the middle. Just like the latest Autohaven and Shelter Woods reworks.
We need more unique maps, and it doesn't matter is they're not perfectly balanced. Perfection is unattainable.
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-"No map is perfectly balanced, and never will be."
Maps need to be in a place where survivors are picking maps not because they offer an escape advantage but because:
- They like the Nostalgia of that map from other games
- They like the graphics/sounds
- They have not played that map in a while.
Survivors usually pick maps that include : Ormond, Garden of Joy, Decimated Borgo, RPD as well as farm maps (which 4/5 favor survivors).
The Eyrie of crows was massively broken and the devs made it less unfair (still not exactly a fair map but it's better). Everyone knew it was survivor sided so survivors picked offerings to send them to that map for an easier chance to win.
-"All maps are viable for killer and survivor."
That might be true at low levels of play and mid levels of MMR but it is definitely not true when you consider efficient survivors. Most of the maps are so big that the killer will likely lose if their 3 gen setup is broken.
Wreckers Yard is a pretty fair map to killers. It has a small area, but has strong pallets. It can have a few linked tiles but nothing gets crazy like coal tower.
We can look at any map in the game and I'll tell you how to make it fair but keep it different. Let's consider Garden of Joy for example.
This map makes a "U" shape with the generators. It should probably then look more like this:
- Delete the entire back wall so that you can't go behind the house (removing one of the cheese windows completely. Change the shape of the upstairs drop to go to the east insead of dropping behind the house. Remove upstairs pathing on the east/west sides of the house except for the overlook over the top of the front porch.
- Make either the upstairs vault window open near the generator OR make the window downstairs next to the pallet open. Note: the front side of the house can have a vault but if it does then there is no pallet in the house.
- Delete the Jungle Gym near the Car park that leads to another jungle gym that leads to shack.
- Push most of the generators on the bottom of the map to be closer to the house.
- Remove generator spawns in the "NE" and "NW" corners. One generator will spawn in the green box area guaranteed.
This would be a pretty fair map as the two most abusive areas just got fixed. The house is no longer a near infinite loop. The deleted jungle gym prevents the ability to link approximately 7 tiles (several of which have pallets).
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If I was bad at my job, I'd be fired. At BHVR, they have them design maps.
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Literally 90% of the maps in this game are survivor sided. Throw on WoO and it's literally braindead, just run from pallet to pallet and you most likely not go down. There's a reason more than 90% of the killer roster is completely useless on most maps because of the ridiculous size or excessive amount of safety in every map.
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i dont mind any mac or autohaven map except suffo pit, ormond (even tho many say it's surv sided) dds, yamaoka or midwich (for obvious reasons)
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Confirmed: Pulsar is definitely the most level-headed, rational and objective poster on the forum. Any and every discussion comment I’ve seen Pulsar make has been genuinely knowledgable and non-confrontational. Even points where I’ve not necessarily agreed with I’ve come away with a different perspective. You’re a credit to the community!
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