I have roughly 4500 hours in Hillbilly. Over half a year of my waking life on this killer.
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I have 7k hours split in both killer and surv and have never felt billy was gamebreaking in any way. His addons didnt need a nerf at all, in fact they're one of the few remaining remnants of high speed, high interaction gameplay.
PTB patch pretty disappointing overall, with this and basekit healing changes (didnt need changing apart from maybe medkits). No word on spine chill hard countering stealth killers like GF either, now that the TR changes have finally been implemented.
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Hey just thought I should let you all know that Behavior isn't even aware of what a "Billy Curve" is. You are all confusing them and I don't think you'll get them to understand anyways so I think we should all suggest adding a second overheat bar so the first one doesn't feel so lonely and pointless.
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Flick Billy? Since when could you "flick" with Billy's power, their turn speed is locked to a certain amount with a chainsaw sprint, and canceling your chainsaw and flicking it into Survivors for a down got fixed in 2018. Pardon my confusion, but what the hell are you even on about?
Curving isnt flicking. Red-stain/directional mindgames arent always flicking but you can react to them in time, and there are ways to play each tile. It creates interactions since both players act and react accordingly, similar to your average Killer looping a pallet and doing a double back to make distance, etc. Literally saying "this isnt interaction" is basically like saying "looping in general has no interaction", because curving is fundamentally apart of the looping process.
Also might I point out, that "curving" very much IS INTENDED by BHVR, when Billy first released, they never had increased directional turning at the start of a chainsaw sprint, it was later added, and when people learned to curve, BHVR encouraged it. You would know this if you actually did an ounce of research before talking on subjects you dont actually know about. I would compare it to being similar to Survivor's spinning Killers, it definitely was not the intended originally design for the game, but become apart of it because the community and developers liked it.
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What interaction? Watching the billy waltz back and forth on the spot then saw 180 degrees around a tile he shouldn't be able to?
Sounds like you're upset with collision and you're taking it out on Engravings.
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So you just don't like the billy community, doesn't change the fact that curvebilly is fair and has depth and skill, and should be encouraged.
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So many good points being made already in the posts before me, by way more experienced Billys than me that I have nothing to add. I just hope BHVR listens this time and throws this idea where it belongs.
I don't understand the few people here trying to "rub it in", asking for reworks and/or being happy about the nerf. There's 31 killers in the roster, Billy being one of the least played ones. I'm sure you've got a killer out there that is more suitable for you and that you don't play against him that often with engravings.
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It's like the devs don't understand billy at all.
Literally every time they change him, they frame it like they're improving him and billy player's should rejoice, but they just nerf the things that people actually like about him while giving him stuff no one cares about.
He's already dead BHVR, please stop.
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Because Billy is played so little, they do not understand the counterplay to Billy, so to them, it feels unfair. They lack understand of the amount of time and effort that is put into curving and the skills needed for it.
Also, some people just like starting fights because they like to make people mad, Forums has had an influx of troll/bait accounts recently, so it's to be expected.
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I posted this in another thread, but, in this case it really feels like BHVR is seeing the engravings usage levels, and mis-reading them as being too strong rather than his other addons being weak.
Comparing them to some of his other addons:
First, the way OP has mentioned with the increased skillcap, the way they push his curve playstyle to its limits, the learning curve using them, etc. All good enough reason to pick them on their own and lean into that style of play.
Second, they're some of his only universally reliable addons. Lopro is great IMO, and I love yellow boots for map traversal. But, the black grease and pills? Their activation conditions are often out of your control and hard to get value out of the times they even proc. The purple boots have such a huge downside that it's painful. He's got so many intensely mediocre ones like his browns, the off brand motor oil, all four of the overheat related ones (cooldown based/"Active when overheated"), the whopping 15s of stealth (2.5s of which is taken by the chainsaw hit that procs it). So many of his addons are just.... hard to notice or even get value from.
Many of the other addons like the iris are fun gimmicks are best, but the engravings are just about the only ones that really change how he plays in an effective way other than a gimmick.
On top of everything Vel has said, it feels like interpreting their usage levels as being OP rather 2 of his 3-4 total Reliable addons is a misstep. His other addons could use some love to increase his addon variety, rather than nerfing his only consistent ones.
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Behavior, please revert this terrible change immediately. If you actually think playing Billy like this is OP, you're mistaken. Why do you insist on beating a dead horse and nerfing this killer into the ground even further? Who are the survivors who are complaining about this? It wasn't enough to kill his addons the first time; it wasn't enough to add an unneeded overheat mechanic; it wasn't enough to remove the ability to fly into the air like a majestic eagle. When will it be enough? Do you just have a person vendetta against people who like to play this one killer? Nurse of all killers is buffed in this patch but Clown and Billy are nerfed and Blight is unchanged. Why? Who is making these decisions to effectively ruin the game for people who enjoy these very niche strategies?
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My god. The 11k hours even imply that he has seen most of the games developement.
The number of matches against m1 killers, all of which use the same mindgames, wether its pig, trapper, legion, etc...
Prefers if Killers are less variable, in essence if his experience ingame stands out less with each passing day...
By interduction, I assume you find most killers with variable mindgames boring.
After 11k hours, he prefers Killers to feel more similar, instead of hoping for variable experiences.
This absolute menace of a survivor likely prefers m1 on gens over actual looping.
Magnificent, this has to be the most successful trolls of this entire website.
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so you find him boring because you cant counter him? you know you can just leave the loop right? or going in a different direction, seems way more fun to me than doing what bubba does
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I created an account just to comment on this topic. Nerfing the killer which no one uses, instead of real problems (Blight) is not a solution. All of his add ons need to be reworked. I just started to enjoy him, and see how difficult it is to play him, and seeing those changes just proves how disconnected you are from the community, unfortunately
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I already left a support ticket suggesting devs look at billy's weak addons instead of nerfing one of the only viable ones, but I have to comment on this post because gtVel is THE person to come to for billy gameplay. If survs predrop pallets, they already outplayed a curve billy. There is no reason to nerf him. Stop bhvr, please. I beg you. Like I said in my support itcket - no one uses addon for faster charge after being blinded. No one uses big buckle. Iri addons are a joke. Pighouse addons is only useful for one build. Overheat is only punishing for newer players. Basekit speed is ######### and survivors can react to it. Remoal of skybilly was one of the worst changes devs ever introduced into this game - apart from this new update which wants to nerf two of the three viable billy addons.
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I've never seen something I've agreed with more, couldn't have said it better myself.
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As a terrible Billy myself, the once or twice in my 2k hours across the last six years that I've ran into a double engravings Billy who're going for curves has been a genuine joy. One of the most impressive things left in the game, and the fact it's going away if these changes go through is absolutely staggering to me. I don't know who on the balance team is so afraid of Billy in today's world, but I really wish they'd let the poor man keep the interest of the two dozen people that play him still.
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Also one of the few who still occasionally play Billy. Nerfing his last good add-ons would kill him for good.
Overheat is NOT his problem, it's the fact that he has effectively no good add-ons and no more add-ons that help alleviate his clunky base-kit that was to be remedied by his original add-ons.
Add-ons are his problem, not his overheat, no one cares about overheating.
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Please listen to gtVel. The only few billy players remaining use doom and death engravings and everything with this killer is very timing dependent and as fine as threading a needle. Any decrease to the speed to engravings renders them pretty much useless as the curve hits we currently get are on the brink of being a near miss. Without the speed these addons are not useful at all infact detrimental cause they increase charge time. I dont want to see this change in the upcoming PTB and definitely not in the Live game.
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I dropped Billy when overheat was introduced. Glad I did
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Billy's basekit probably does need to get retouched at some point. IMO introducing a positive effect (or Power altering effect) while overheated and making it easier to become overheated with certain actions, playing more into learning where and when you should be overheated and where you shouldn't be.
Until that happens, his addons as they are now probably don't need to be touched.
However a niche selections of addons being the only thing making a Killer competitively viable probably isn't good design, and would need to be toned down anyway to get a better sense of the Killers balance.
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Wait, is OP well known or something?
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In case Vel's statement wasnt enough here is a video from Azhymovs showing which killers are the most enjoyable to face voted by community.
Billy Comes in at #2 Behind Demo at a 75% Approval 16% Okay and 9% Dislike.
Edit: I read some of the stuff from after what I quoted, you're literally just a contrarian at best, and a rude person if nothing else.
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Developers should only use Hillbilly 100 times before considering adjustments.
You will understand what you really need and what you don't need. Overheat mitigation is correct and unnecessary.
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This is super sad that the 'nerf the pig' meme has swapped to Billy at this point. First they took his rocketship, then every new map has invisible clutter to block his chainsaw, and now they are gunning for his Engravings.
The craziest thing about this to me, is that this is the same patch where they are BUFFING NURSE. "Yeah Flashlights don't work against her anymore, and here is a Billy nerf, suck it nurds." This is so out of touch and patently absurd.
Hopefully someone comes to their senses and doesn't let this go to live.
Personally I would buff Billy to have Lo-Pro saw basekit. It would go Healthy->Injured->Deep Wound->Downed. The add-on would upgrade this to Healthy->Deep Wound, and Injured->Downed. That way both sides can know what is going on and act accordingly.
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Somewhat. Don't take this explanation as an ego thing.
I've been streaming exclusively billy nonstop for the past two years, running nothing but double engravings and for the first year, it was around 12 hours a day streamed on average. It's what I'm known for, because it's all I do constantly. I'm debatably the best at playing billy this way. (Tbh I think there are some others that are better, but I definitely have the most raw experience.)
Sure, this potentially poises a conflict of interest, but that would only realistically matter if I cared about winning in the slightest. There is the angle of "this impacts your job as a streamer so ofc you'd care", but I feel like that's obvious and proves my point as well. People want to WATCH fun stuff, and that's what's being removed.
I'm not well known to the broader audience of DBD, but your favorite content creator very likely knows of me.
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Ah
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I used to play a lot of Hillbilly in 2018. After they added overheat, I decided to drop him (after a few matches to see how it felt). Fast forward to the recent past, I was playing him about a week ago. Discovered Lopro+ Doom Engravings after constantly getting owned, and then only getting owned most of the time. I just now learn is the "sweat" build after experimenting with his other add-ons, which is Scott Jund telling me about "crack/insta-saw" Billy all over again. The point being, I actually do know how to play me a Hillbilly or two. I can't say that I send myself to Lery's, I just weep in agony if that happens, but I can curve on controller ("ooh, look at him. What a hunk!"). It literally feels like BHVR noticed I, personally, started doing okay with him, and having fun, and said "well we can't have that!"
So sorry that I came back, y'all. I'll stop playing him, or start playing him only with bad add-ons that don't actually do anything, so that his kill-rate goes then and they MAKE LOPRO BASEKIT.
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Jones here, Billy main... 3000 hours with 38,000 saw downs. I agree 1000% percent with what Vel has said. Please do not go through with this change. It is absolutely wrong to change his engraving add-ons with a speed reduction, it's not needed. I understand the Dev's are looking at the kill count or kill rate for these add-ons but what they aren't understanding is that these add-ons have such a "high" kill rate BECAUSE they are the ONLY decent add-ons for Billy to make him viable. If they're the only add-ons being used, of course they will stand out from his other add-ons. Does this mean they need nerfed? No.. it's just common sense if the only add-ons being used are engravings due to the Dev's making his other add-ons useless, the kill rate will be the highest on the most used add-ons. Take Blight for example, he has multiple good add-ons, so the kill rate is balanced as Blight mains use all of them in variety, but the add-ons themselves are stronger than Billy's in a heartbeat.
His engravings already come with a massive charge up time, and missing a saw is very damaging against good players if they know what they are doing. Keeping curve Billy in DBD is harmless, it is actually something very fun to go against personally, and multiple will agree. Even Otz. Billy struggles enough, why do you think people run double engravings... it's because they're wanting to have fun since they don't want to play a killer like Skull merch, Knight, Nurse, and get very easy wins by camping 3 gens or downing survivors like flies. They want a challenge. BECAUSE he is HARD to play, takes dedication and focus, takes a long long time to even be able to use these add-ons at a decent level and execute curves. You can argue Billy is boring to vs because some go for curves the entire game by mind gaming one singular pallet, but that's beside the point, someone said that in the comment section here. It's completely irrelevant. You can argue these add-ons are strong but it's objectively not true.
Even if they do have a "high" kill count in some universe, they're no where near as strong as other killers add-ons. Again, they are what makes Billy, he is mainly used for the curving potential, no one wants to play backrev Billy, and m1 every loop, that's Bubba's job... now we are going to be punished for having fun, and be punished for using his saw to patrol gens across the map..... this is silly.
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You're not gonna be remotely good at AWPing in CS in 5 hours. That doesn't mean the AWP needs to be nerfed.
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Please don't let this go, engravings are all Billy has left. ((((((
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Im certain if CS made a gun and people didnt get kills with it until after using it for 100h, then they would admit they made a mistake. but in DbD land you guys think that cause for celebration. (its not)
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It takes significantly less than 100 hours to get a basic control of the chainsaw. I've literally taught people within a day how to control it in a basic sense.
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How long does it take without a personal trainer? plus how long should it take before a rework is considered.
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have you heard of the deagle? the gun thats celebrated for requiring a lot raw skill along with good gamesense? I personally still suck with it, eventhough i regularly use it., and i already have 1.8k hrs invested
Its objectively mediocre balance wise but fun as hell to use, prolly due to the potential lethality. Kind of reminds me of a certain killer.
hard is not a synonym for bad.
Billy is the darks souls killer, dont like dark souls, thats fine, there are a ton of other great options. But why would you want to take dark souls away from the few veterans it entertains?
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lmao. Dark souls is the worst example you could use cause I know that game like my own hands.
First. hard is not a synonym for bad, but it certainly depends on how hard. Hillbilly certainly is outside any standard at this point.
Seconds. Dark souls have incredibly easy mechanics, there are no slide around a bush to get increased damage.
third. We certainly have to rework a Killer at some point. Besides like so many have told me in this thread, you can just play a different killer when that happens, yourself.
Should we keep Twins like they are forever cause it makes a few people happy? No this is a game, for many people and if the power is just too bad or too old. Just can it and move on. Its so simple. I used to Main old Freddy, I didnt bat a eye over that.
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If they should nerfed any killer add ons that should been blight. His single add on might not be as popular as engravings on billy but that is because he has many OP add ons so you don't see just one. Billy deserves buff is anything those add ons could be make partly basekit and other buffs as well. Hardest killer in the game deserves to be better. There is always argument I see blight not needing nerfs and deserves to be strong because he is hard killer but billy is much harder and gets nerfed...
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For what it's worth I 100% agree with OP and at this point they're just kicking Billy when he's down. These add-ons are some of the very few left that even do ANYTHING SIGNIFICANT and they want to nerf them? Meanwhile Blight with 10 busted add-ons gets no changes? This is purely the result of their idiotic "balancing" philosophy; some guy saw a spreadsheet showing these add-ons being used more than others and never stopped to ask why. It's because Billy has approximately 4 add-ons that even do anything useful in the first place!
Off-Brand Motor Oil, Big Buckle, Leafy Mash, Black Grease, Pighouse Gloves, and now ALL the other overheat add-ons are entirely useless.
God forbid they at least rework some of his garbage tier shite before they nerf some of his only decent add-ons left.
This change has me ######### livid and incredibly disappointed. Especially showing the double standard between Billy and Blight, and especially after Skull Merchant.
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I'm nowhere near as skilled or as experienced as you @gtVel but I have a fair bit of experience on this killer as well (around 600 hours) and I just cannot believe they actually came to the conclusion that they had to nerf him in such a way.
Overheat was introduced to limit Billy and Bubba's camping capabilities. This change to his overheat now literally works against their original goal. It limits his map mobility and even chase power but allows him to camp more efficiently. Even if only slightly, these changes will shift Billy's power away from mobility and chasing and towards camping. This is something that nobody asked for. Quite the opposite in fact.
Overheat has never been that much of an issue to me personally. I mostly don't overheat in chase and I don't camp. On very rare occasion though, I'll encounter a survivor that really challenges me in chase by mindgaming and greeding pallets. Against those survivors I do sometimes overheat or get fairly close to and have to wait until the chainsaw has cooled down a bit. I'm honestly fine with that. But I do not see why Billy's map mobility of all things should be nerfed. It will make me go into the next chase with more heat than before and therefore become an issue.
Lastly, his addons. I don't think I have ever seen anyone complain about Engravings. Not a single time. I can only assume that the devs looked at their pick rates and decided to nerf them for that reason alone. But anyone who knows the Hillbilly's addons will know why Engravings and Lo-Pros have the highest pick rates. Simply because these addons are genuinely good and fun to use, while the rest of his addons aren't. At least most of them. I have not found a single situation where I could get value out of the Big Buckle (and believe me, I've tried!) and many of his other addons are too unreliable or undertuned to even be considered an option. The Engravings enable a whole different play style on certain maps. You can try and curve without them but Billy's base speed is simply too low. Often enough a survivor will have so much time they can simply react the chainsaw and stop out of the way or get around the next corner. Billy needs an addon pass but his Engravings should not be touched.
With everything that Billy mains had to put up with over the last few years, from maps and awful collisions, more and more pallets and strong windows and even the removal of Skybilly, I can't comprehend this change. Billy is literally the reason I am still engaged in the game to this day. There has been more than enough feedback for the devs to know exactly what people thought were Billy's issues. Yet they kick him again and again. With every new map, every new tile and now with this.
Where is all this hate for Billy coming from?
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I only play Billy on occasion and, when I do, I use Stealth Drift Billy (to use a description last page) because my niche is weird stealth builds and stealth Billy is great for that.
That said, while I don't use the Engravings myself, the impression I'm getting is the changes to Engravings are basically pointless. They aren't changing anything actively problematic (like the Blight addons mentioned) and, like the recent scream change, seem to be trying to fix what ain't broke by nerfing something that seems to be one of the main incentives to even play Billy, going by what's been said.
If this Engravings nerf camev with a more general addon pass that might be one thing, but this focus on a player favorite that few were complaining about and on an infrequently played killer besides seems like terrible devving.
I do agree that steps should probably be taken to make Billy more easily accessible/desirable for beginners, if for no other reason than because he's a base game killer and new players already have Nurse for a mechanical challenge. If anything I worry the overheat changes will put a damper on that since map traversal is the main use new Billies use for their chainsaw while they learn it and long sprints are where the most overheat will now go to.
None of that, however, is really relevant to the issue of Engravings being a bad nerf.
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I want to try the new changes before I pass judgement, my question is how much did they nerf it. Did they brutalize it into the ground or just make it slightly worse. I'd like for them to remain untouched but no clue if that will happen.
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Imo the "how much" question is a bit irrelevant, because at the end of the day some idiot decided that these add-ons needed any sort of nerfing which just shows unfathomable incompetence.
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100% afk'd hours for most of it. That said could also be photoshop so we'll need more proof.
But yeah you're just a troll. Obvious af.
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Thank you for this well written post Vel. I sincerely hope the devs listen to the community this time.
There's nothing as exciting as being chased by a double engravings Billy imho, though I'm obviously biased. Dbd will lose something special if these changes go through.
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Hopefully they do similar to when they nerfed Rat Liver for whatever reason, everyone criticized it and then some of it was added basekit in the end
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I really, REALLY hope this is what they decide to do.
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Please do the correct thing here BHVR, this is genuinely a bad change and by going through with this you’d be alienating an entire tight-knit community that has been built around this killer and pushing one of your most beloved, fun and engaging killers into irrelevancy. I myself have close to 3000 hours in this killer alone and survivors ALWAYS love facing a hillbilly. it’s heartbreaking to see him consistently being made worse.
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BHVR you need to listen to the community you are already messing the game up please dont mess billy up hes a fun killer to play against i honestly dont think i can play this game anymore
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with Twins sure, a rework probably wouldnt make anyone that mad. Her kit is flawed in concept. But twins was never really as popular billy as was. Eventhough she's rarer, most players are more excited to see billy than twins.
The foundation for a great killer is still there, it was built upon poorly.
If, in theory, dark souls was too strict with its inputs, it would also not be as good as it is currently. But wouldn't you agree that instead of saying "bad game, change concept", the best solution would be to make them less strict to hit the sweetspot of difficulty?
Thats the situation were in. Make billy less punishing, and it's perfect.
Thats why theres such an uproar about this change: instead of going in that direction, theyre removing the possibilty for players to bridge that gap with skillful application of these addons themselves.
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First: you say its bad design, i say its intended design
second:also billy does have easy mechanics?! chainsaw goe Brrrrrrr! just that they have more nuance to them, same as rolling in Darksouls you cant spam rolls in DS and win !? you have to time them in accordance to a enemy attacks, same with billy if you just rev your chainsaw and expect to land a hit no wonder u suck with billy, timing and when to use your chainsaw is key.
third: but according to most, you are the minority. most people consider hilly billy a very fun killer to play against. you are literally one of the only people in this forum for the billy nerf, your are contradicting yourself
your are one the few people to keep happy?
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Thats why theres such an uproar about this change: instead of going in that direction, theyre removing the possibilty for players to bridge that gap with skillful application of these addons themselves.
If an addon is overperforming, I don't see what you expect them to do. Besides I heard alot of Hillbillys in this chat saying they love "hard gameplay" so that would be exactly what you want.
but according to most, you are the minority. most people consider hilly billy a very fun killer to play against. you are literally one of the only people in this forum for the billy nerf
Yeah, this is something we hear a lot here. But do you have some studies to support that claim? besides your personal experience or if you are that streamer dude who only gets people coming in to throw roses as him-
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