Visit the Kill Switch Master List for more information on these and other current known issues: https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/kb/articles/299-kill-switch-master-list
We encourage you to be as honest as possible in letting us know how you feel about the game. The information and answers provided are anonymous, not shared with any third-party, and will not be used for purposes other than survey analysis.
Access the survey HERE!
Why are perks nerfed just because they're meta...
...and why are perks nerfed in such a way that nobody plays them anymore?
Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance
This perk has gradually found its way back into the meta. To address this, we have given Scourge Hook: Pain Resonance a slight rework.
That is why my questions came up. As an unbiased DBD main playing both sides, I have my concerns about the upcoming changes. Does it make sense to nerf perks just because they're popular?
If you nerf current perks to such an extent that nobody plays them anymore (e.g. DH, CoB, Overcharge, Scourge Hook PR, CoH etc.), then there will inevitably be a new meta. And this meta will make people complaining again. There will be more nerfs again. It is a doom-loop.
I appreciate the devs listening to feedback from their Fog Whisperers and complaints from their community and making changes based on that. But making changes that no one asks for (e.g. Billy´s engraving add ons) just because it's meta is wrong in my opinion. I agree with most of the changes in the patch, but I don't think it's a good idea to degrade perks to the point that nobody is guaranteed to use them anymore.
What do you think?
Comments
-
The main questions is.. Why is the weakest role in the game still being kicked while already on the ground for YEARS?
If this patch goes live, my solo Q teammates won't even bother healing or rescuing. Everyone will be running sole survivor+wake up and not give a damn about their teammates. And every survivor knows what killers they will encounter immediately after the patch drops - Weskers with sloppy butcher, coulrophobia, unnerving presence with a Midwich offering to make healing completely impossible and useless.
Slower healing being also a shadow buff to killers like spirit, oni, legion.. Just take your time to remember what it used to be like to go against a "forever legion" with thana.
Still waiting for a voice chat to be added to dead by daylight so the devs would actually be able to balance the game towards SWF vs. killer, since SWFs seem to be the main reason as to why so many perks/items/mechanics are being changed in the game (because they've been abused by coordinated SWFs in the past, just like flashlights).
1 -
What the fog? The devs are doing everything they can to keep DBD alive. Imagine these people want to earn money for their work (I know, how dare they). So why should they be biased?
Dead Hard and CoH got the self-care treatment. So if you're one of those urban evading Claudettes who still selfcare in a corner, yes, then these perks will probably still be fine in your opinion.
2 -
Compared to what has happened to killer perks? Yes, they were not nuked.
COB is nerfed to the ground so now COB and Overcharge together will only grant killer the effect of old COB. That's 2 perk slot occupied for the same effect as 1. Pain Resonance has 4 uses only which entirely defeats the perk's purpose. It's effects were not even buffed to compensate such nerf.
DH got tweaked where it doesn't get expired if it does not protect you from hit. This means you can still use it at pallet and if killer doesn't hit you, DH will be back after exhaustion cooldown. It simply got a requirement of unhooking someone so DH can't be reused again and again every 40 seconds even after it did it's job and protected player from going into dying state.
COH needed a nerf. Amount of times it was used by survivors along with other healing methods is too big to ignore. It can still be used to heal faster with medkits, it just can't be abused as free self-care for everyone, aka the 5th perk for entire team.
1 -
Some games like card games nerf meta/popular things so a new meta can emerge and keep the game fresh and not stale/the same for ever. The problem is that DBD community is so attached to perks that they get mad when their favorite perk is hit for the sake of more game variety. Not saying this patch is on spot with the nerfs and buffs, just saying ppl overreact for no reason because they dislike changes (yet they still ask for them *shrug*).
That's partially BHVR fault as well, doing such big changes to a community that is used to the same meta for very long time. If this was done regularly, there wouldn't be so much reaction from community im psure.
1 -
Unless you have hearing issues, the visual terror radius will not give you any significant advantage.
This is not a Us VS Them thread and your comments have nothing to do with my original questions. So please stay on topic.
1 -
I agree. Though, CoH will still be useful, if used correctly. DH got what it deserved. I won't miss it. I would have been happy with a complete rework for that perk as well but here we are.
0 -
That would actually make sense as a reason, I haven't seen it that way yet. Actually that's a good idea too, but as you mention, no matter which side they're on, people will always complain.
0 -
Did you really think they weren't going to nerf gen kick after people constantly abused it and made games last for 45 minutes?
0 -
1 word: MONEY
1 -
New CoH is trash for Solo Q. Even in a SWF I wouldnt use it. CoH was good because you could heal yourself in the radius. If I depend on my mates to heal me in a specific location on the map, I can do without it.
Again, we're not here to debate which side got the harder nerfs. It's not us versus them. I want to discuss what the meta shake is good for and why we need to make several perks useless.
0 -
"Dead hard and CoH still fine after little change"
LOL
1 -
Exactly, this thread isn't about which side got the harder nerfs. To claim that only one side (survivors or killer) was nerfed shows inexperience, lack of understanding or entitlement.
I feel you about Scourge Hook PR. It was the only slowdown perk I used for a long time because I'm not a gen kick enjoyer. I'm also not sure if this change was really necessary. Still, I don't want to complain and will replace it with another perk. Same for me with DH. I've used it for 6 years but I also understand why it annoyed people.
1 -
Guessing i'm going into the gen blocking era now then as regression is now worthless in comparison for my ranged killer's now with the PR 'Slight' nerf.
0 -
I feel that instead of nerfing perks on both sides they should buff perks no one uses. Theres a reason why so many people are using these perks on both sides. Its because these are the ones that give you the best advantage. Im a survivor main and i didnt have a problem with pain res, cob, or overcharge. Yea they were annoying but thats a part of the challenge. Thats why i feel that killer mains shouldve gotten over dh and coh. All of these perks have counters. Ive been playing since 2018 and the game has been going downhill for a while now. The game has become perk reliant on both sides. I also hate the some of the new perks we have gotten are so situational.
1 -
Of course i use this HUD when i play surviver. We can know fix gen or hide or escape.
0 -
It's cause BHVR doesn't know why we use these perks... They just gather the numbers of people using certain perks and change them
Honestly at this point I would rather them just make certain perks unselectable/ unusable until they can figure out why certain perks are being used
0 -
They just gather the numbers of people using certain perks and change themYes, and that's something I don't understand. Not every perk with a high pick rate is automatically a perk that overperforms. A lot of M1 Killers like to use perks like Bamboozle or BS, but still these perks are not gamebreaking. And if old Scourge Hook PR was oppressive, why isn't Jolt nerfed?
0 -
Cause SH: PR offers more effects then Jolt does
Hooking a Survivor makes the Gen that has the most progress on it to lose 10%... while Jolt only works if you down a Survivor within range and those Gens lose 8%
Hope that kinda answered your question
0 -
while Jolt only works if you down a Survivor within range and those Gens lose 8%Only if you down a survivor? I mean, this is way easier than picking up a survivor and taking them to a badly spawned scourge hook on the other side of the map 😂. Not to mention that you can get a stun, flashlight blind or a sabotaged hook :) Jolt gives you less regression, but if you're lucky you'll hit multiple gens. Also, you only have to down the survivor.
I think both perks are definitely useful, but not overwhelming. Also, both depend on RNG or luck. So I can't say which one is better. Maybe they don't touch Jolt because it only works with a basic attack.
0 -
Again PR affects the Gen with the most progress on it... while Jolt affects Gens around you
Yea I kinda went to far by using the word only... sorry
But then again there are perks that are underrated... Oppression being one of them
I don't play much Survivor so I only know of Killer perks
0 -
Im aware of their effects and what they do 😉 However, PR on its own won't tell you which gen is affected unless you're next to it. I think you're telling me that PR is better than Jolt. Maybe you're right about that. But I can't discuss it because I don't know exactly which of these two perks causes more regression on average.
BTT: There are some perks that are underrated. That will change once the wise content creators have explained to the general public which perks will become the new meta. The fact that Selfcare was nerfed proves what you're saying. It was NEVER a good perk on its own. Why was it nerfed? Because too many survivors have played with it.
0 -
Well I haven't played in a year so all of the changes that have happened I have no experience with
Why listen to content creators about what's going to be "meta" when you can find what perks you like and go from there
That's what I did...
0 -
I've always picked the perks that best suit my play style. Each of my killers come with at least two different loadouts. I also like to change perks on the survivor side. However, many people prefer to turn off their brains and let their favorite creators feed them. I mean it's ok to get inspiration when you don't have a clue yourself. Unfortunately, a lot is taken over blindly without being reflected. That's why I often react sarcastically when someone opens the next "Streamer x told us the truth"-thread.
0 -
Fair enough
0 -
Just to clarify one point: devs dont listen to feedback from fog whisperers. That program is just for marketing purposes, hand out a few auric cells so they can showcase new content as long as you stay positive about the game. Public criticism of the game will very quickly lead to you no longer being a fog whisperer.
0 -
So, I personally believe that nerfs should only happen in the most egregious of cases. When certain things are far too strong or for when something is promoting incredibly unfun gameplay. Nerfs and reworks are useful tools in a Devs tool belt, but they should be used very sparingly.
In that light... no. A perk should never be nerfed solely because it is popular.
0 -
agreed
1 -
Perhaps that is true of the majority of Fog Whisperers. They have proven often enough that they listen to the community. Why do you think the change to the Skull Merchant came so quickly when they had barely collected any data yet? Or just the changes to the 3 Gen Meta. And Feng Min got a crop top!
I can't speak for all of the Fog Whisperers, but I know at least two who offer unbiased criticism and let it be known.
I'm not saying that the devs implement exactly what the community wants. Of course, in the end they make the decisions themselves and that's a good thing.
0 -
The three slowdown perks being nerfed so hard is also because of the healing nerf. They are taking some of the slowdown potential from those slowdown perks and adding it to killers basekit.
And the more I think about it, the more I believe PR will still be a good perk, when also considering the healing nerf. Plus the nerf is perfect, as it will still help killers more early on during the game but not so much later anymore.
0 -
So after playing some matches on PTB I can agree that PR is still better than CoB and Overcharge. Still, I would prefer that they remove the DMS + PR synergy and therefore not change PR. I won't miss CoB and Overcharge, but both perks are kind of useless now. PR was a lot healthier for the game than all the gen kick perks as PR encouraged a more chase oriented playstyle.
0 -
Iron Will would like a word about this
0 -
-"Does it make sense to nerf perks just because they're popular?"
It does but not for the reason you might think. We all know that the expectation that 4/5 players in every game but the truth is that the balance is nowhere near that. Right before the 6.1 patch people pinged the DBD servers and found regular instances of 45 killers in queue with 4500 survivors.
The marketing forumula for DBD has always been : keep the survivors happy and they will buy all the DLCs. In order to make killer competitive force them to buy the meta perks/killer platforms. Think for a moment if your friend wanted to play Blight and needed all the meta perks "today". How many DLC's would he need to buy? He would need at least 5 minimum just to make that one killer work. Pick a different killer and you need 5 other DLC's.
So from a "making money" standpoint it makes perfect sense. From a gameplay balance perspective it does not. Let's make a pretend example where as some kind of grand April's fool Joke 10 YT streamers got 1/3 of the survivors to unironically use Deja Vu every game. Sorry if you like that perk but it is not good because it gives you something that good players already know because of hours played/map knowledge.
Imagine two possible outcomes for the joke (experiment).
- Using DV did not lead the players to win more games
- Using DV caused those using it to win significantly more games.
If #2 is the answer then someone who is bad at statistics will cry "Eureka" and declare that DV helps players win more games. The problem with this experiment is that it doesn't tell you under what circumstances DV influenced the game. All it does is paint a possible correlation. In this case maybe the really good players were in on the joke and didn't use the perk or weren't even playing survivor during the experiment but were playing killer most of the time for that 100% experience bonus.
So then from a "money making" standpoint does it make sense to nerf anything the survivors don't like? Basically the answer is Yes. And that's the basis of something like 75% of the game decisions for DBD over the history of the last 6 years.
Now on the other hand let's consider Dead Hard and CoH. There is no doubt in my mind considering all the games from the 6.1 patch to now that those perks are broken. They get picked often because they do in fact help the best players using them to win more often. Note : CoH is easily used by "average" players but average players do not use DH well; only the best players can make good use of DH. We see the same parallel with the Nurse killer - only really good players can use her and everyone else "sucks" when they try.
When I lose a game I keep seeing the same patterns:
- I am playing against SWF teams
- At least two but usually three to four players use DH.
- There was at least one CoH boon
- The survivors had strong items
- The map was heavily weighted in favor of the survivors.
Let's look at each of these factors.
- SWF is better than not and that's a fact. We can discount this because we know how it influences games.
- What I see here is strong players using DH perform better than strong players not running DH. Let's ignore weak players using DH because you would catch them easily anyway because they are weak players.
- Boons make the game easier for survivors because they spend less time healing/looking for heals and they can shrug off the danger of being injured more easily (an infinite number of times in fact).
- We can ignore this issue because Strong items are better than weak items or no items.
- We know that sometimes the map is "rigged" against you. Conveniently like many streamers my game crashes when survivors try to take me to survivor sided maps so we can largely ignore this aspect as well but remember it is there as a contributing event that can occur.
With all that aside let's ask some questions:
A) Does it make sense to nerf DH if that perk is significantly making the game easier for the very best survivors?
B) Does it make sense to nerf Boons if that perk gives all players the ability to easily negate an injury from the killer?
In both cases the answer is yes when I look at my games and when I look at games of "professional" streamers when they struggle.
0
