Tunneling is being incentivised now
With the healing changes coming into DbD its going to impact SoloQ to where they'll have to stay stacked due to not being able to efficiently heal themselves and SWF are going to play injured for the mast majority of the game. The changes doesn't really do anything to the Vets who play. What concerns me is that now it's going to be easier to tunnel players out of the game right off first hook now that players will play more cautiously not willing to body block or take hits to get the save or protection hit. Leaving that player to fend for themselves they'll be the easy choice to pick. You got 3 healthy survivors not hooked vs 1 injured survivor who has 1 hook. The choice is easy to pick
Why spread hooks out when you got a guaranteed kill now.
This will hurt newer players and the casuals who want to just learn and play the game. You can't learn anything if you get tunneled out the game
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Learning survivors face Learning killers. This change gives injury more of an impact, but also encourages more teamwork over solo infinite healing.
I'm looking forward to seeing more cautious play styles from my teammates. I dont want to be making saves 30s into a match because Meg thinks she can run the killer for 5 gens.
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Completely Agree.
The Developers really have no idea how to balance this mangled corpse of a game anymore.
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My NAME is LEON thank you.
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none of those are related to healing at all, it's about survivor's choice and nature of tunneling.
There is no situation where saving 1 hooked injured person with your own body will not worth it, if survivors decide to not do objectively good choice they are just bad.
Hell, hook trade literally do exists, and proven to be fairly effective.
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It already is. Killers get nothing out of spreading hooks.
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Nah, I know Leon can handle things. It's always the Meg that goes down first in my games.
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This does the opposite and de-incentivizes tunneling as it encourages the killer to spread pressure.
By this broad of a definition of "increasing tunneling" we could almost say anything increases tunneling. "insert random killer buff" increases tunneling since it's harder to save.
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Eh? you can just insert killer nerfs too.
Faster gen time? killers tunnel more because there is no time, longer hook time? killers tunnel more cuz camping is harder, slower attack cooldown? killers tunnel more because time is valuable.
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Tunnelers are gonna tunnel; it's a player issue, not a game design issue.
No matter how you slice it, that remains the same. Keep healing strong, some killers are gonna tunnel out survs with medkits because they are huge time sinks. Weaken healing, and it will be as OP says. Every coin has a flip side
There's no good answer here, because no matter what is changed, the stone cold arithmetic of 3v1 vs. 4v1 for killers will always remain, the rest is just details. For those risk averse cowards who are terrified of losing, getting to a 3v1 asap is always going to be their play.
Yes. If escape is the goal, the correct play (pre-EGC, at least) is always going to be to give yourself up for someone who has been hooked more than you have. This will not change.
Post edited by Thusly_Boned on2 -
I mean, what do you expect when all the good regression perks that make playing for hooks possible are all but gone?
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Game is balanced for kills and not hooks.
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Which perk are you talking about other than SH:PR? None of the perks proposed to be nerfed are reliant on getting hooks to earn them. The regression perks being nerfed are the 0 skill, all reward, problems of poor design.
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What do you mean "now?" /lol
Tunneling has been the goto meta for close to a year because survivors want to blast gens and escape.
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COB and OC were basically replacement Pop/Ruin in the sense that they’d quickly decimate a gen with a lot of progress. The fact that they in particular took no effort was only part of their appeal. Now we have nothing good that can control gens with a lot of progress, only trash perks no one cares about, making playing for hooks nearly impossible.
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BHVR: *Changes literally anything.*
Community: "This is going to make camping and tunneling even worse!"
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That's a hot take when with sloppy you are now looking at ~30 second heal times. And crutch hard being gutted?
This patch is a massive buff overall for killer, I would be surprised if it even goes through in it's current form. Some killers like Dredge, Hag, Wraith, etc etc are getting the biggest buffs they have ever gotten all at once.
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And what if people don’t heal and rush gens instead? There’s also We’ll Make It to drastically reduce the healing time, and medkits still provide two heals which saves more time than one survivor healing another so longer heals aren’t really going to have the impact you think they will.
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Kinda wild. Taking some power off gen kicks but then adding in entire gens worth of extra healing into the match and people say it won't be impactful.
CoH gone, crutch hard gone, medkits nerfed into the floor, healing time increased dramatically. And then someone is complaining because call of brine won't delete gens passively anymore? It's such a net win for killers, at least any killer that wasn't relying on call of brine.
If they don't heal then they get 1 shot by wraiths, dredge spends all game in nightfall, oni spends the entire game in his power etc etc. Use common sense here. If the survivors can easily get away with never healing all game then you are not playing well as killer
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Did 10 extra seconds stop gen rushing from occurring without slowdown? No? Then why would it be any different with healing? Medkits are not gone, if anything, they’re more important to run for what I stated before. Any survivor can loop with one healthstate for at least long enough for gens to get done, especially when SB exists and all these survivor sided maps with loads of pallets also still exist. There needs to be something to take care of gens, whether it’s Call of Brine or old Pop. Otherwise gens will go too fast.
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I don't know what killers you are playing, but most killers these days can almost brute force every safe loop in the game. You are talking like everyone is playing Wraith in the days of killers like Blight, Pyramidhead, Mastermind, Knight, and all the other killers who can basically negate looping. Not to mention some incredibly strong anti-loop perks like dissolution now exist
I will take my massive killer buffs, CoB for DH is a trade I would have made even without healing getting increased to ludicrous levels
3~ sloppy hits is now an entire generator worth of healing and "gens will go too fast" he says
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Don't forget how it'll hurt soloQ and make everyone quit the game!
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Of course Tunneling will rise even more.
There is 0 reason to not tunnel. Its Gen-Tunneling vs. Kill-Tunneling.
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The only way I could believe that claim is if you legit Bloodlust hits on Blight. That is so far from the truth, that you have to be lying in bad faith. Especially with the claim 'nothing good that can control gens with a lot of progress' when Pop still is ultra effective on 70%+ gens. Unearned healing like through CoH is bad, and unearned gen regression through OC/COB is bad. Both are problems for the same reason, and are being removed for the betterment of the game.
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Deleting perks to uselessness instead of trying to keep them at least somewhat useful is a bad way to go about things. And even on heavy progressed gens, Pop is still just “meh”. CoB and OC should be 150 so they won’t just be useless trash.
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Well BHVR can’t nerf healing as they have but leave these lethal regression perks as-is. It would be way too overwhelming for most survivors. I expect the kill rate to raise following mid-chapter update but if regression perks like CoB and PR are not altered then these rates will soar.
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They can't balance the game for new survivors. People will learn by playing the game. Lets not handfeed them everything shall we? I have 3000 hours in this game and i'm still learning.
With my hours i do get decent survivors in my soloQ lobbies and if killers don't play good they get destroyed.
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While I agree in principle, I do think the proposed COB/OC are still good (just no longer OP), as their unique features are largely untouched. (Intel for COB, Skillcheck for OC dropped to 14% from 15% regression) Arguably CoH is being overly nerfed, but I think since it can be used with other Boon perks it has a lot of hidden value. (I would still allow Self-Care at 35% as the only difference from the proposed version of CoH, as 35% self-care is practically throwing if you don't get healed by someone else.) I think most people overreacted to Pop's nerf, but I also think it, alongside most other 6.1.0 perk nerfs should have been single nerfs, not double nerfs. (Pop still based on max% not current, Ruin staying at 200% disappear on death OR 100% stay on death, DS remaining at 5s, Iron Will being tied to non-exhaustion 100% OR 75% not both, etc.)
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Killers have been consistently handfed for 6 years of this game and still currently begging for more. Like someone mentioned above killers are in a spot where they can deny loops and even make up the lost distance in chase at loops
While survivors are consistently kicked down and gutted to where they've to hold hands with each other to play
You shouldn't be able to pick up killer and instantly master it get 4k every match
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OK then... i see you can't see this game from both sides or with clear glasses.. so have a nice day <3
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While I do think the best state of the game is with 12 hook (action, not state) gameplay being incentivized, I think it needs to happen on both ends. Providing value to spreading the pain, while making it more difficult to camp out hook stages and tunnel people off hook. Things like a lesser grim embrace, that only work when you get each player to stage 1 and stage 2 simultaneously (that is all 4 survs reach stage 1, you get your first lesser GE, then if you do it again for stage 2, you get a 2nd GE.), while also helping that happen by denying hiding perks when you are the least hooked living survivor. (Maybe an exception for Low Profile and Sole Survivor's benefits.)
While some patches have clearly been bad (6.1.0's DS nerf, earned regression nerfs and unearned regression buffs, and COH existing at all), they have been mostly taking turns in screwing over each group. I honestly think the best the game has had it for both sides, was Mikaela's release while COH was killswitched.
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So, in theory, that means making healing faster would be the opposite, and not incentivize tunneling?
Then killers would simply have to hit someone and... keep chasing the same person and never give them any time alone because that might allow them to heal the damage away quickly. Odd, that sounds like it incentivizes tunneling.
Well, your logic can't be wrong, so I guess everything incentivizes tunneling.
(The actual issue is that the core game design makes tunneling as strong as it is and the objectives would have to changed drastically in order to make tunneling no longer a strong strategy, but it's pretty obvious that neither the dev nor the community would be keen on changing the core gameplay loop at this point. Every minor change gets doom-mongering, so a major change like that would make everyones heads explode and probably result in a lot of people blaming real life medical conditions on a video game)
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facepalm
Is this community really this clueless about the game they play?
It's litterally the opposite. Tunneling is being decentivised with the update.
They want to nerf regression perks and shift the power to slow down the game by spreading injuries.
Tunnelers don't spread injuries, so they won't benifit from this natural slowdown as much. Meaning they are affected by all the nerfs and by none of the buffs
In DbD now you can tunnel one survivor, get 3 procs of pain res and then have CoB and Overcharge to lock the last couple of gens down as you wittle down the remaining 3 survivors and still have a perk slot left.
Good luck doing that after the update. Not only do you maximun get only one proc of pain res but holding the last gen won't be as easy too.
There is a case to be made that tunneling hasen't been decentivised enough. But how you could think a longer time to heal incentivises the strategy to not injure anyone but the one survivor you are chasing is beyond any reason
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-"CoH gone, crutch hard gone, medkits nerfed into the floor, healing time increased dramatically. And then someone is complaining because call of brine won't delete gens passively anymore? It's such a net win for killers, at least any killer that wasn't relying on call of brine."
Killers aren't going to kick gens anymore. It has never been worth it without kick perks. So that makes blastimine absolute garbage and buffs the hell out of wiretap.
This is not a net win for killers because there is literally no way to protect the generators. A lot of people don't seem to realize that if the gens do not get completed then you have won the game. What this meta shift will do is make sure that the gens get finished most of the time.
All the healing survivors have been enjoying has been at the expense of the killer's fun. If the game is actually going to get balanced then we will need to see all the gen rush perks get the treatment that gen defense perks are getting right now. Nobody is going to use gen defense perks with 70-75% nerfs. Nobody would use a gen "rush" perk that had been given the same treatment.
Toolboxes need to get changed next. They should probably just become "sabotage only" and have the BNP retired.
-"Some killers like Dredge, Hag, Wraith, etc etc are getting the biggest buffs they have ever gotten all at once."
Dredge will have his power more often so that will be a plus for a very "meh" killer; likewise wraith wont be ruined because people brought an item. Hag on the other hand is getting nerfed because you wont need an item to counter her traps. This was a needed change to prevent the "catch 22" scenario where she has franklins to deny your ability to counter her traps.
"I don't know what killers you are playing, but most killers these days can almost brute force every safe loop in the game. You are talking like everyone is playing Wraith in the days of killers like Blight, Pyramidhead, Mastermind, Knight, and all the other killers who can basically negate looping. Not to mention some incredibly strong anti-loop perks like dissolution now exist."
Due to forum rules I'm not allowed to discuss why you are wrong. In short very good players know how to circumvent mechanics like "window blocking. You can however find a certain video by the streamer Hens mentioning that such techniques exist.
I will remind you that Trappers find themselves facing the same difficult opponents that Pyramid heads do. The MMR system doesn't keep them separate even though everyone knows Trapper is inadequate against good players.
So brave and yet so true. Most people believe that survivors cannot tunnel. It is their divine right to finish the generators and the killer isn't allowed to tunnel them in response to their tunneling.
In what upside down dystopia do you live in? For six years DBD has been a survivor playground almost without exception. If you are a new player that doesnt know how to loop then maybe I could understand your point of view.
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This is nothing new. Tunneling a person out of the game is the most effective tactic available right now and it will remain so.
If I tunnel you right off the hook and give you no time to heal it does not matter if said heal would have taken 24 seconds or 6 seconds. The only option to heal a tunneled survivor is For the People and that remains untouched. Bodyblocks from random teammates are rare and few already and that will not change. The only way to bring in more bodyblocks would be if you made Dead Hard activate on a protection hit as well in the future.
I strongly disagree with your idea that this patch will lead to more tunneling. Quit the opposite. If the person off the hook has Off the Record or Borrow Time I now have to targets in front of me: One that is injured but has a second health state with a boost (speed or silence) and one that does not have a boost but also two health states. Usually it will be better to hit the new survivor.
This is kinda the same game a when you play Pig: You do not chase the guy with the party hat.
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Now that the PTB is going live we can actually see how bad the environment will be
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if you are not split up on gens now that killers are without their gen regression perks (which were nerfed) you are playing survivor wrong.
killers cant apply pressure to everyone if you don't let them...they have to hit and run as tunneling out just one survivor (hold w and predrop isn't that hard trust me)just isn't as effective anymore
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I respectfully disagree. Balancing the game for new survivors is important to ensure that the game remains accessible to a wider audience. While players will certainly learn by playing the game, it's important to make sure that the learning curve isn't so steep that it discourages new players from sticking around. Just because you have 3000 hours in the game doesn't mean that everyone does, and it's important to keep in mind that not everyone has the same level of experience.
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You do that by teaching players how to play the game, not by dumbing down perks and gameplay. It isn’t fair to people who have put in time to balance the game around new players.
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Disagree. While it's important to teach new players, it's also crucial to take into account the experience of seasoned players. Especially with how inaccurate MMR currently is. Neglecting the needs of either group could lead to an unbalanced game that is not enjoyable for anyone. Instead, finding a way to balance both sets of players will result in a fair and enjoyable experience for all.
Do you have any ideas on how we could make it easier for new players to learn the ropes of the game, while still ensuring that long-time players can enjoy their experience? Lots of new players quit the game early because of not-so-fun mechanics and the overwhelming number of perks that need knowledge to counter.
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There needs to be a mandatory tutorial on how to run tiles- that would be a good start
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Agreed. However, it is important to note that there is still a significant learning curve that needs to be addressed for new players, especially in terms of perks. It's worth considering that the mechanics of DBD were originally designed to be more casual and resemble a party game.
However, as with many games that have PvP elements, players tend to optimize their strategies to the point where the game becomes less enjoyable for others, as is the case with tunnelling in DBD. It's also not ideal that perks for fixing said unfun mechanics are restricted by paywalls.
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Excuse me, in what fairytale world do they face learning killers/survivors?
I've faced killers with 3k, 5k, 6k hours and so on when I was beginning. Even now on survivor sometimes go against killers with 100 hours and they get absolutely destroyed.
You speak as if MMR actually works... and the sad thing is more often than not it doesn't.
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One of the wisest things I've read on these forums. Hear hear!
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Yes they do get something it's just not rewarded in the game. Like feeling you really won because of your skill and not because you used the best and easiest strat. But spreading hooks is not always worth it because survivors can just tunnel generators.
Still the hard tunneling only focusing on one survivor is not often that good idea because that leaves other 3 working on generators uninterrupted so that can be heavely punished. It's important to still know when to tunnel.
But tunneling is like full swf playing the game on easy mode both should be nerfed. I like normal mode spreadind few hooks and cause pressure and take someone out more natural way.
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This is such a lame mindset. You aren't less skilled, because you took advantage of the opponent's mistakes to capitalize yourself on an advantage. You don't have to hard tunnel the first survivor you find in order to not spread hooks. You can even generate enough pressure to force a survivor to end up in second state on some maps like Azarov's.
Forcing yourself to hook everyone equally over some pride does not actually make you more skillful. As it means you are giving up your own advantage instead of making use of it.
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Tunneling has been a part of the game since it first started, I don’t care what anyone tells you. What bothers me is how many people support crying against tunneling like we haven’t been playing the same game for 6 years, like seriously?
It’s a grievance for the survivor side to deal with, just like the grievance killers face when playing against most survivors. It is what it is, and technically, whether or not you need to do it in every situation in every game, fact if the matter is it is simply the game, you try and eliminate the other side or escape, there is no other objective.
People can agree or disagree with how that result is achieved, but ultimately there is no more or less shame in playing a video game the way it was intended, whether or not it is well liked.
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Excuse me how do you tunnel gen like that is something you made up?
Survivors have nothing to do but gens and rely on teamwork to get them done if you do your role correctly you'll excel at killer with no effort
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I completely disagree. Just because something has been a part of the game since its inception doesn't mean it's not problematic. Tunneling ruins the game for the survivor being targeted, and it's not a fair or fun experience. It's not just a "grievance" for survivors to deal with, it's a major flaw in the game's design. And to suggest that playing the game as it was intended means using such a tactic is ridiculous. There are plenty of ways to play the game without resorting to such cheap tactics, and it's sad that some people find it necessary to do so.
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i will not tunnel unless you are the last person or you bodyblock but its just one hit then
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Gen tunneling doesn't exist that's just survivors doing there objective as fast as possible they are totally different 😉
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