If you're complaining about the PTB...
Start counting the time you spend not doing a generator.
Start thinking about how long your chases are vs. how long it takes to complete a generator.
Start noting safe zones next to gens that you can run to, rather than hiding behind a rock and hoping the killer doesn't see you.
So many of you are complaining about how difficult Survivor is going to be once PTB is pushed to live servers, when you are the reason Survivor is so difficult. You think that healing will save you, but no one is going to escape if you can't complete a generator.
You've no right to complain about how hard the game is when you continue to choose the least efficient strategies. Many of you knowingly do this, because "holding M1 is boring, and I refuse to sit on a gen all game."
The Survivor Activity HUD has been enlightning.
In games that I don't escape, there are often spans of 3-5 minutes where I am the only one to touch a generator.
This game is not hard. There is one objective.
If you're not going to do the objective, you should expect the game to be hard. Likewise, if your teammates are not doing the objective, please recognize that you didn't die because the game is too difficult--you're just not playing with people who are trying to win.
This game cannot be balanced around people who are not playing to win.
Comments
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"You've no right to complain about how hard the game is when you continue to use the least efficient strategies." Im sorry, but this is just wrong.
One of the most common complaints from killers, is that its 'necessary' to camp and tunnel in order to win. Is this true in some scenarios? Absolutely, but in the large majority of cases its not. That doesnt stop those people from complaining, and they have every right to do so.
People want to feel as if they have options that are actually meaningful. Can you imagine just how boring this game would be if all anyone did was play 100% optimally? Or literally any game for that matter? People play games for fun, some want to just sit back and have a good time, not sweat their ass off.
In the case of this PTB, its been a common complaint that holding M1 is just not fun and should be addressed in some way. Wanna know how their complaints were heard? By making them hold M1 even longer. It just feels like a slap in the face.
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Well, isnt that the case of Survivor HUD?
Dev wants to prune survivors playstyle to be as efficient as possible. Then the other side response is also playing with killing in efficiency too which means tunnel one out early.
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People still have the right to complain, but I do agree with your points.
So many survivors waste friggen time in matches, and its infuriating. They don't do gens, take chase, use pallets or windows, and then they moan "But I never win! Survivor is unfair!"
Survivors isn't easy, and neither is killer, but there are so many options that people don't take on both sides that make them see their role as difficult.
Survivors have to do 5 gens while one distracts the killer basically at all times, and unhook when needed. While it takes skill to run a killer, these are three simple concepts that so many survivors don't understand for NO reason.
I think most of the community is made up of survivors who are scared shitless when it comes to entering chase (and perks like Distortion don't help), and they end up being useless because they haven't become comfortable with at least taking a killer's attention. Then, the moment they have to do something, they get destroyed and the game becomes unfun. There is a skill issue obviously, and that's okay, but nobody will get better if the bare minimum isn't done.
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Which theres nothing necessarily wrong with that, the problem lies with those things being very unfun for the receiving side.
In a perfect world, the meta would be something fun to play and play against.
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My post isn't addressing inexperienced survivors.
If I only run No Mither, and bring no items or offerings, I cannot then complain to the devs about how difficult their game is--I have voluntarily made the game more challenging for myself. I am using the same logic in my post--these aren't new concepts I'm bringing to the table.
Playing smart is not "sweating." People play PvP games because competition is fun. Having the opportunity to outplay your opponent and master new skills are fun. Feeling like a valuable contributor towards a team is fun. Picking others up when they are down feels good.
This isn't a singleplayer game. "Sitting back and having a good time" still requires a certain level of engagement and thought. Your opponent is trying to beat you, and you're souring the experience for your teammates if you are not trying to beat them.
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The Survivor HUD is not just for playing optimally, it just provides information for people to make better decisions.
Before the update, I got left on second stage many times if I never ran Kindred because my teammates could not tell who was doing a gen, who was going for a save, and who was in a chase; now I rarely reach second stage unless the Killer returns back to the hook for pressure.
I think that can be tied into fun a bit. It is not fun to be left on second stage and immediately have the Killer leave whatever chase they are in to remove me from the match. And because it was so common, at least for me, it felt like I barely had an opportunity to actually play the damn game.
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The root cause of it all is the hate of 3 gens(which I think is totally valid but imo is more of a map thing than a perk thing). What were people expecting to happen? CoB and OC and pain resonance to get dumpstered and nothing else changes?
BHVR has been on a tear nuking every gen regression perk that shows any popularity into dumpster tier. Pop and ruin with 6.1.0 and many of the buffed alternatives that came with 6.1.0 have been also dumpstered at this point in time due to survivor complaints. How exactly are killers supposed to keep up without regression? Base regression is laughably bad at .25 C/sec and now almost all regression perks are getting trashed. BHVR is just playing a shell game of moving that regression time from perks into healing.
You can't have killers with no regression options and also have 8 second solo heals just because it's "fun" for survivors.
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I agree with a lot of what you say, but that last sentence is what I think matters most: "This game cannot be balanced around people who are not playing to win." I cannot count how many times games have been thrown, maybe to finish a challenge or daily, or survivors dying on purpose for whatever reason. I don't think it's half of the matches, but it's a high percentage for a PvP game... which is why people shouldn't take this game seriously, but that's another topic.
I do believe the game can be somewhat balanced better, but is it worth it? I think that would require a lot of restrictions (like those found in tournaments). I don't think this community (including the devs) would like that. Not only that, BHVR would have to get rid of dailies and challenges, and meme games... at least for games that "matter". Additionally, you'd have to convince people to play this game more seriously, which a lot of people don't.
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Oh boy another one of these responses... here we go... 🤣 Let's dissect this response starting withhhh...
"Uhh... how can you judge the survivor base as a whole and accuse them of never doing generators."
My post is directed at seasoned survivors who feel threatened by the PTB changes, not the 'SuRviVoR bAsE aS a WhOlE.' Not everyone takes issue with the PTB--it challenges a very specific group of players, who play the game a certain way.
"First of all, everyone has a right to complain"
No. See my response to Shroompy, above. If you are not playing to win, you cannot complain about the game being 'too difficult,' because you've chosen to make the game more difficult for yourself.
"You're part of the complaining"
I implore you to learn more about rhetoric. This post is not complaining--the closest it comes to complaining is the anecdotal evidence I provide about my own experience.
"Notice throughout your whole post, you never named one thing that you do wrong"
Oh that is right, I forgot... I must provide my resume and years of experience in order to say anything on these forums. Is there an email I can submit that information to, I would hate to lose all credibility.
"Well guess what, not everyone's always trying to win...I purchased the game with my money, so I can play it however I want."
Congrats, I too like to attend parties and take all of the food so no one else can enjoy it. I love walking into public spaces and disturbing the peace, because my freedoms trump basic human decency. I especially love reminding people in online games that if they don't like how I play, they should go play something else, until I'm the only person left playing my favorite video game.
Play the game however you want. You are not who BHVR should be balancing around. It would be a disservice to Killer mains for BHVR to balance the game around you, and players like you. Because while you're off in la-la-land, believing you should escape without trying, some poor Killer has to compete with the tryhard survivor who has been given 4-5x the resources they need to win.
Do you see how that becomes a problem?
Do you see how asking for free handouts unfairly benefits those who worked their way to the top?
Do you see how your indifference to playing the game has harmful side effects on those who would actually like to?
TedTalk over~ 😌
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"My post isn't addressing inexperienced survivors."
But it is considering they're the ones who would have these complaints in the first place? People who willingly put themselves at a disadvantage don't really complain, and if they do they're apart of a VERY small minority.
You're right that playing smart isn't sweaty, I should of used other wording. This whole thing here in fact I agree with but it fails to acknowledge that the game doesn't reward learning new skills or putting tones of hours into something.
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"People who willingly put themselves at a disadvantage don't really complain, and if they do they're apart of a VERY small minority."
I would LOVE to concede this point to you, but I do not believe it to be true for this community. The majority here preach "DBD is a party game" and "DBD is too hard" at the same time. Too many people trying to have their cake and eat it too.
I can no longer blame BHVR for some of the major balance issues with this game, because they're receiving most of their feedback from players that want to win without understanding/implementing the game's core strategies.
You said earlier that people want options, and I agree with you on that point. But fundamentally, the strategy of an asymm game will always be for the majority number to spread out and make as much progress in as many places as they can, as fast as possible.
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Gen regression shouldn't and isn't nearly as necessary as you'd think, especially with how matchmaking is. Also the devs nerfing these perks is taking a step in the right direction, as mentioned previously holding M1 is not a fun thing to do and gen regression exaggerates this. Survivors don't like holding M1 on gens just as much as killers yet its a necessary evil, the reason why this PTB is getting so much backlash is because yes, their complaints were heard in the form of nerfing gen regression, but it gets cancelled out with having to take 50% longer to heal which is also holding M1.
Now onto the subject of healing, addressing it was a step in the right direction. (Especially Medkits) How ever I don't think there was anyone out there complaining about altruistic healing. Self Heals and Medkits absolutely needed addressing but a blanket change like this is not the way to do it. Self Healing and Healing should have their own speeds, not the same.
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Yeah, I know the solo q pain when not a single gen will be done until you touch it after you looped killer, it is a base. But PTB changes will make solo q even more hard than it is now because players will not learn just like they don’t learn now.
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disregarding everything you've said because "i can't be bothered" - no offense to you. i read it. but the post has a bit of... flippant vengefulness to it. my interpretation of it anyway.
to address the thesis statement:
it depends on what one expects from the game.
the issue with dbd is likely that there aren't enough win conditions for survivors. remember - hatch was basically removed as an option unless you're a selfish player. in this situation there is only 1 "team" objective for survivors.
at this point it might make more sense to just remove the hatch entirely.
i'm personally in favor for returning it to an alternative objective. i think it would be interesting to have it spawn in relation to a minigame - such as cleansing all totems or interacting with a glyph mechanic or something.
this would reward players for doing things other than generators - which is really the keystone to this entire debate. "why would you do anything other than a generator if you're trying to win?"
and the answer should be "because i can win this way as well"
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What should happen with soloq is the changes reward skillful plays more now. That should make running the killer more valuable helping runners win more games. MM can't really work if I have a sub 20% win rate when I run the killer for more than 5+ mins a down. The players that can't adapt should tank games while players that do should, ideally, rise. Might not pan out that way but I'm full of hopium that soloq won't be so a$$.
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"You didn't respond to my good point though..."
You call 'Youtubers and Streamers Said X, Y, and Z' a good point? People in positions of power are inclined to say whatever they believe will keep them in power.
I haven't seen or heard anything from any content creators, so I simply cannot respond to your so-call 'good point.' All I can say to you is that you should not give so much weight to the words of content creators.
"Once again, everyone has the right to complain no matter what. Freedom of speech exists."
The phrase "you have no right" is not one to be taken literally--I'm not taking away anyone's freedom of speech. It's a way of saying "you are not in a position to offer an opinion." Which you are not, on the topic of game balance, if you don't try to win when you play the game.
No, you're complaining...
No, I am not. You read something you disagreed with, and you interpreted it as complaining. I've neither expressed grief, pain, nor discontent. The anecdote that you've quoted me on is nothing more than a report of my experience in-game. I offered no expression on how that makes me feel--any conclusions you've drawn about how I feel are pure conjecture.
You admit as much by saying "it sounds to me like..." You're trying to read between lines that are not there.
You know that's not true lol you're reaching a bit but the branch broke.
Oh I'm sorry, I don't recall playing a game with you. Do you have evidence to refute my claim? Or are you just calling bullshit because you don't like what you heard?
Your response is honestly so laughable so I'm not even going to entertain it
Tell me you don't know how to take accountability without telling me you don't know how to take accountability.
The irony in your "the world doesn't revolve around you" comment, whilst expecting everyone around you to tolerate your idgaf-attitude, is unparalleled. By the sounds of it, you're nothing but dead weight to your fellow survivors. Must be backbreaking, needing to carry you all the time.
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Well it can be balanced if BHVR takes a stance on what they really want to do. Do they want a casual competitive game where it's "balanced enough", or do they want to make the competition here really matter by taking as many RNG elements as they can out of the game?
I think it's the former... just based on what BHVR has been doing the past 7 years. That was really my point.
However, if they wanted to make it the latter, they really could by eliminating some of the funner aspects of the game. Haha. But c'mon, based on how much people complain about "fun" and "sweat" in matches, I know BHVR doesn't truly want to go that route for obvious reasons.
And for the record, I do think this PTB is overkill. I do not want matches to be a sweatfest, even in SWF. That is not fun for me. Playing hard was something I did 6 and 7 years ago. I just want fun these days, even if I have to die to have it.
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Me: Responds to each of your talking points
You: You're missing my points on purpose
You came in here laughing at me like I had the worst take in history, then offered the most mediocre counterpoints imaginable. What did you expect to happen?
My last response to you was a total nothingburger because you spent more time trying to make me sound incompetent than constructing a good argument. If you want conversations to stay on topic, don't devolve into meaningless dribble.
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A 30sec into the game and 1 down is already a lose to survivors if Killer decides to either tunnel or camp. Or 1 death before the 4th Gen done. Or 1-2 hooks with 4 Gen done, though at least Killers have some small chances to make a comeback.
But I think the large winning gap like those should not be a thing. There should be a Gen progression & hooks counter, who is losing will get some buff, the harder you lose, the stronger you are.
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This is actually pretty accurate. The amount of people who are allergic to gens or it takes them 3-5m after the match has started, to even touch a gen, when they haven't even been chased, is very irritating.
I also cannot express how many people cannot last over 20 seconds in chase as soon as the match starts.
& then I have the rare games where everyone on my team is connected to a hivemind and we are all playing with the same mentality. Almost seems like were in VC calling things out but we just know what to do in every situation, who does a gen, who goes for a save, who takes their turn on hook to buy everyone else time, etc. Those games are great but rare.
As for the PTB, I don't like a lot of what is being rolled out but its not 100% hitting live yet since there is a ton of negative reception so we'll see what goes through and what doesn't. I will adapt either way.
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I definitely think you're 100% right with MMR setting up games that are decided within the first 20 seconds. I guess that raises an interesting question should the game be balanced around a match maker that prioritizes speed over quality? Both sides have absolutely ridiculous outliers at the top end that will absolutely slaughter 99% of the competition they run in to.
I guess my fear/concern is how does the balance work where the survivors aren't holding m1 on something for a long period of time. Either the gens take a long time, healing takes a long time, or chases last an extremely short time to balance 4 good survivors knowing what to do vs most of the killer cast(for the sake of fairness I also want to call out good nurses and blights/other top tier killers vs non swf/non meta survs, same thing where the outcome of the game is probably known before anyone loads in). None of those sound fun for survivors and on the other hand if all of those become fixed for survivors then the game isn't fun for killers and we fall more into the side of "first hook done, 3 gens popped, any damage done has been healed to other survs"
Lastly I do think the idea of moving the stall time from gen regression to healing isn't the best idea, but honestly I can't think of anything that isn't basically the same thing(something that weakens survivors at the start of the game when they are at their strongest but also has the unfortunate quality that it also weakens them after that point when that is no longer needed)
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I've always thought that DBD should have Perk/Add-On Strength Matchmaking, to reduce the amount of stomps on either side.
If one side is looking for a chill opponent, they should be able to increase their chance of finding one by running little-to-no meta perks.
Likewise, if one side wants to play a more competitive game, they should be thrown in with other players running the strongest perks in the game.
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What a terrible take. Healing should not be the least efficient thing in the game. Is it unreasonable to stay healthy against killers?. Do we now need to stay injured. The devs nerfed healing too hard that is not the survivors fault. Yes it's important to do gens. But guess what it's also important to stay healthy. Especially against the strong killers. Yes you need to do gens efficiently. But that doesn't change the fact, that survivors got overnerfed.
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Is it unreasonable to stay healthy against killers?
Actually, yes.
When Circle of Healing was introduced to the game, it completely eliminated an entire playstyle--Hit N' Run.
6 Killers (Wraith, Hag, Legion, Oni, Twins, and Onryo) have powers which are dependent on survivors staying injured for value. Additionally, 11 more Killers (Trapper, Nurse, Doctor, Freddy, Pig, Ghost Face, Demo, Deathslinger, Blight, Dredge, and Wesker) have powers that can shine with the Hit N' Run play style.
Altogether, that is 17 different playstyles that people are not seeing, because they are not currently viable ways to play the game.
Killers need to devote all of their time and resources to injuring a single survivor. Why should survivors be able to undo that effort for 1/4th the time and resources? Doesn't sound very fair, does it?
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What the survivor HUD taught me is that there has absolutely, 100% been games where I did all 5 gens, by myself, while my teammates did nothing. I used to tell myself I was imagining it, but sitting on a gen has given me all the time in the world to see what little they actually did. Congratulations Feng, I've done three gens in that time all you have done is loot one chest while Meg is in chase.
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Survivors should still have reasonable means to heal themselves. The nerf to healing in the PTB was too much, especially regarding altruistic healing speed. Now syringes will feel more like a necessity because they are the only strong way to heal yourself (Inner strength will be useless if everyone runs it). Of course the current healing is too strong, but that's less because of altruistic healing speed. That was never an issue IMO.
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Fairplay. We'll see what BHVR has planned for us when they unveil the changes following PTB.
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Unfortunately, the HuD has has had low impact on efficient gameplay from my experience as a survivor main. I've lost count of the amount of times I've been the only survivor on a gen yet had to leave it to go and unhook. There are definitely some truths to the OP, but it is far too generic. As someone who considers myself a well rounded player, I am concerned about this update.
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Absolutely nothing wrong with having a different opinion at all. It's just the way you've articulated yours isn't helping. You're last comment doesn't help you lmao.
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im too lazy to change my profile picture so just pretend i made a post saying "i absolutely agree with everything, you shouldn't spend any time healing" while sporting an Oni pfp
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"People can be condescending towards me but when I do it back it's a problem"
Well that's just a bad attitude lol. Awful way to start lol
With you saying that "Everyone's logic is quite flawed in this discussion" when people are being logical and articulate and saying that I'm personally attacking you, which I don't mean to, you fall under the same criteria you've given others for being condescending. Plus other things in your comments.
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Ok but that's the issue. There's players not even "sweating" just playing to win, and then there's players who play for fun and not to win. If you want to troll around and not contribute to the objective, yes that's within your power and fine. But with you doing that, it feels like my skill is meaningless. When fun for you is testing your skill against your opponent and seeing the results of your improvement, it feels awful when other players ruin it for you.
On survivor I am not comp dropping every pallet and running full meta builds with a stacked med-kit every game. On killer I will play blight, but I am not going to run his top add-ons and I will not tunnel unless a survivor body blocks me. I am playing to win, but I am not sweating.
Also you are creating things the op said that are far out of reason. They didn't say everyone doesn't have a right to complain or that every survivor is trolling. They said it's not your fault if you lose if your teamates are not playing to win and you can't complain about losing if you are not playing to win. You are just stuffing words into their mouth.
I guess there does need to be a ranked queue when people have this mentality.
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I dont complain, i just play killer instead. I was playing killer/solo survivor 50/50 anyway. i used to be a solo survivor, but solo survivor gets more and more miserable, while killer keeps getting easier. And while you are right that the problem are the survivors for the most part, you have no control whom you get paired with as a solo survivor, and usually, you cant carry a whole team, or mmr is not working.
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