Killer win condition is flawed, here’s how to fix it
Change the win condition from kills to hooks.
this right here would discourage more killer players to camp and tunnel and instead spread out their hooks.
it’s a win-win for both sides.
survivors have a higher chance of escaping because everyone is being two hooked instead of tunneled out of the game.
and killers still get to rank up and pip because they met the condition of hooks. It would also feel more rewarding for the killer that they hooked everyone twice.
of course, there are gonna be some killers who still will tunnel and camp but this should minimize it
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this makes no sense at all.
so no one dies? Or what?
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I think it's too late to change the win condition.
People have got it in their heads that a 4K or a 4 out is a win. It will be difficult to change that.
Post edited by Pulsar on7 -
I had a match a while back where from the moment I loaded in I literally did nothing except hang out in the basement. For some reason, the survivors threw; after the first one came down there and got hooked, each survivor successively came down and screwed up making a save, getting hooked themselves. All four died on their first hook.
Unless I'm misremembering, that was an iridescent Devout emblem. Meanwhile, when I actually participate in the match and double hook everyone but don't get a kill, that's a bronze Devout emblem.
Rewarding results but not effort is a problem in this game. It encourages playstyles that aren't fun. The same problem exists for survivors with escaping, they get a huge reward that doesn't necessarily require any effort, it just requires stealthing around until everyone else is dead (those teammates tank more matches than I can count, it's one of the reasons I'm not playing DbD right now).
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I’m pretty sure they are gonna notice when they start depipping back to low ranks.
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Its been pretty much cemented in this community that a killers win is >2 kills. A 4k is pretty much getting a 100%. Best outcome.
People also tend to get rather stubborn when constantly being told "3 is enough, dont do more or else you're a sweaty tryhard". Its like telling survivors to just like stop trying to escape.
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That‘s because a 4k is a win? It’s the only win. How else would a killer win? Destroy the gates? Killers are killers for a reason. Their goal is to kill. Hooking is a method of killing. Moris are a method of killing.
it’d be kind of weird if the goal of the killer wasn’t to kill. Let’s assume hooking was the goal. Then basically getting hooked would have to remove survivors from the game. Thereby hooking would eliminate a survivor. Which is the exact same thing as killing a survivor.
i mean we could always get rid of the entity sacrificing mechanic and make it so the entity no longer kills players after they’ve been hooked a certain number of times. Maybe that would be better. Instead of dying to sacrifice you just have a consistent bleed out timer. Once it reaches zero you die. That means no more hook farming teammates and no more rage quitting by hook pogoing.
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The devs don't need to change the win condition, they need to change the reward system.
I've played other games where there's a win condition, but the players are rewarded for their efforts more than for the win. The reward for winning is dopamine. You encourage participating by rewarding participating. If someone meets the win condition but did practically nothing to get there, then they walk away with what they earned: practically nothing.
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So let me get this straight. You want killers to kill, but any method other than hooking, people want gone (slugging, camping, tunneling). But you don’t want the win condition to reflect hooks?
see now I’m confused by the community
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7 years and you think they haven't already thought about other ways to make killers feel they won the game ?
It's settled, pips don't matter for survivors or killers. Rank don't matter for both sides. HIdden mmr is what high level players are focused on, or should I say : sweaters.
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I mean, I have no problem accepting this, but as you said: if the survivors can get a 3E, they can also nearly always try for a 4E, and I never ever experienced that they said to themselves "you know what? That killer earned that one kill. Lets just leave." I will stand on the hill that there is way, way, way more altruism from the killer to the survivors then the other way around, as I have given hatch to more survivors then I can count, where as it is somewhat rare that survivors would give me a couple of mercy hooks in games that they totally dominated, and actually mercy kills are the real of legends, with less then two hands full, even after 2k hours of gameplay.
I am not complaining, btw, just observing. Its not rare for the killer to have pitty on a group of survivors that they stomped, whereas its exeptionally rare for survivors to show any kind of mercy to a killer that they dominated.
Circling back to OP: something like this could work, IF you gave the survivors some kind of escalating debuff for each hook, while everyone is alive. Normally, getting a survivor out of the game is the most beneficial thing you can do as a killer, a 4th survivor alive and kicking can do gens just as good as everyone else and you can't win the attrition game as a killer if you can't seal the deal. If we got some debuff in the style of Dying Light or Leverage for every hook while everyone is alive, things could be different. IMHO DBDs biggest failure is that there is no catch up mechanic for either side and games can be decided pretty early on. Its exeptionally demoralizing if 3 gens pop at your first down, but with the current meta and increased efficiency since the HUD update its happening a lot more then before. Maybe its just as with 3 gens: 3 gens was always one of the best killer tactics, but only recently even cassual killers woke up to it; same thing with splitting up on gens: that was always the best survivor play, yet in the past survivors got away with slamming gens together and then moving on to the next, now its common to have 3 survivors sitting on their different gens, while you chase the fourth one.
Players skills have long since outrun the games basic mechanics and its comming appart at the seams pretty easily with just a little tuck. The reset of healing and gen regression as actually a good thing, even though it needs to be seen if this just opens more problems in different areas of the game. The thing is that the player base can't unlearn their skills, so certain things will never revert back to how they were during the golden times, because back then most people wouldn't and couldn't play as efficiently as today.
Just imagine sending some good (not exeptionally good, just regular good) survivor back to 2017, they would be totally untouchable and dominate everything and probably be accused of cheating. And 2 weeks later everyone would know about looping and be doing it. Not only the game changed, but also the audience.
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But then we would have to rename killers to hookers and that's just no good
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I mean, I have no problem accepting this, but as you said: if the survivors can get a 3E, they can also nearly always try for a 4E, and I never ever experienced that they said to themselves "you know what? That killer earned that one kill. Lets just leave." I will stand on the hill that there is way, way, way more altruism from the killer to the survivors then the other way around, as I have given hatch to more survivors then I can count, where as it is somewhat rare that survivors would give me a couple of mercy hooks in games that they totally dominated, and actually mercy kills are the real of legends, with less then two hands full, even after 2k hours of gameplay.
That's mostly because killers can afford to do that, and survivors can't. Giving the killer a free hook risks giving the killer at least one free kill, flipping one survivor's game from a victory to a total defeat. This is not the case with a mercy hatch, where the killer has 3K and has the survivor at their mercy. I've also played matches where I 2-hook everyone in record time, basically before they've done two gens, and then let them all leave. It still feels like a win for me because I dominated that match.
But survivors just don't get that kind of luxury. You get put on that hook, all bets are off. There could be Blood Warden, they could camp, there could be Terminus in play, your team might make a slight mistake, and the slightest thing turns it into a 4K.
Survivors aren't the power role, so they have less leeway to give 'mercy'.
That all said though, WGLF used to be phenomenal for game health. That side objective gave an exterior win condition and should not only be reinstated, but further expanded upon.
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Why would anyone care about de-pipping?
You can't even drop out of Rank 1 and it's not like pips have ANYTHING to do with skill. Nor do ranks.
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You went on a weird tangent rant.
"I think it's too late to change the win condition"
A 4K is a win, not sure why you are raving about me thinking it isn't?
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im not raving. I’m long winded even when i type. Sorry for upsetting you with my long response i guess?
it’s not really a tangent. Not in my opinion anyway.
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Then I think you misunderstood my first post.
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possibly 🤷🏻♂️
"i think it's too late to change the win condition."
"4K is a win"
"It will be difficult to change that"
you added the 4 out is a win part, but if we go by what you said initially then this is my thought process:
4K is a win for killers. Killers would have to have an alternative win condition. that win condition would have to be hook related because the original poster was suggesting as much. Which is whom you were replying to.
"Change the win condition from kills to hooks."
because you're talking about alternative win conditions in regards to hooks my suggestion for an alternate hook and death system is by no means out of place. i rebutted the initial argument and provided an alternative solution to killer gameplay versus survivor interaction as was specifically stated by the OP as the issue - hooking the same person over and over causes tunneling advantage and that advantage is too strong and unfun.
this still applies the 4K=win method without the rehooking/tunnelling advantage
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Yes, I added the 4-out part because I realized I had forgotten about the Survivor side of things.
The only thing I said was that I did not think it was possible to switch the win condition at this point in time. It's been 7 years of 4K or 4E as the ultimate win condition.
You'd not only have to re-balance the game but also change people's minds; which I do not think is possible at this point.
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The problem is that you don't know DBD is like hockey and only goals/kills count.
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LMAO I remember that 😭😭 it was so dumb
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As mentioned by others, killers who relentlessly camp and tunnel don’t care about points. They just care about “winning” in the easiest and most consistent way possible. And there’s zero chance that a game called Dead By Daylight will not be based around kills.
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The game doesn't even stipulate that 4k is the only win. It's a sliding scale that's graded on the curve with the devs preferring to see a 2 and 2 split ratio between kills to escape.
Kinda why the game is set up to tell us vaguely where on the scale we fall from entity displeased to merciless killer. If you're able to consistently hit ruthless killer you're winning as per the game's calculation. If you're getting brutal killer you're still technically winning, but most consider it at best a tie as brutal killer doesn't cause you to pip or depip usually.
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Moreso the reward. I remember when the devs changed "entity displeased" to "the entity hungers" for killers in endgame, because even if killers performed well the game was still telling them they didn't perform well enough. If spreading hooks was more rewarding than tunnelling one player out, or getting a 2k was near enough rewarded (or celebrated) by the game, then you'd probably see less of this '4k or loss' attitude.
I've lost count of how many times I've engaged in someone's rant on social media (usually FB or Reddit) about how how strong survivors/perks/items are, and when pressed they'll say something like "I usually get 3/4ks and would have had this one too if..." If 4k is the benchmark standard, then no wonder lots of people walk away disappointed. I escape maybe 3 out of every 10 games, and I couldn't imagine if my biggest problem was that I escaped 9/10 but that 1 game I lost was enough that I felt the game was unbalanced. So why does the game make so many killers feel this way?
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Im pretty sure half of Killers really love the idea that now they can camp 2-3 survivors to death and drop MMR to play against newbie teams because they have 2-3 hooks.
While the other half of Killers who play 8 hooks 0 kill and play against squads of 4 Ayrun.
No thank you.
There is litterally meaningless to increase MMR through kill already, while the rewards from playing fair are everyone have fun, have high BP, keep MMR low and play stressless matches.
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you need... i think it's 12 out of 16 emblems?... to stay max rank.
which means technically you could "win" by getting iridescent on 3 and nothing on the 4th. which means theoretically you could "win" as killer having never hooked a player.
the fact that this scenario exists AT ALL makes it possible that there are other nonsensical scenarios that are technically possible, but that doesn't mean they're realistic or should be considered viable.
to get this scenario to happen a killer would simply need to go 9 minutes without a gen being repaired, winning chases by ending them early, and apply pressure to the downed players that are constantly getting picked up. forced penance, sloppy butcher, jolt, and thrilling tremors should make this doable.
then the survivors can all escape. is that a win?
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Honestly not having exact win/lose condition is already flawed in PvP game.
There should be pure WIN, LOSE and maybe TIE, but not like all those emblem blah blah blah systems.
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The problem with changing from kills to hooks is that now you're back to gens flying.. they would need to change the gen speed slower or yet again buff the gen defense perks that they are killing now and they killed before. Or they could add more objectives for survivors before escaping to make them stay in the trial longer.. otherwise not much point in coming out now and say: "we now want hooks over kills.."
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If you hook no one at all then you can't really gain devout emblem properly.
At best you could iri gatekeeper, maliciousness, and chaser. Realistically though even with the perks you listed it is unlikely to get iri gatekeeper due to a variety factors. Though I don't see how Forced Penance helps as it is a protection hit dependent perk that just makes the survivor broken and if the idea is to just make them spend time healing with sloppy why you would take forced penance is beyond my understanding since should you get it then it sort of nullifies the point of having sloppy. In theory there is nothing wrong with Thrill or jolt though thrill isn't really able to help you hold gens unless you have strong patrol routing and high mobility.
From experience of getting no hook games you can still gain a single pip if you max out your maliciousness, chaser, and get a gold gatekeeper which is more realistic depending on the killer. So by the grading metrics of the game it is still technically a Pyrrhic win at best. Unless you have a team of No Mither players there will be a point where none of them can be picked up because they'd all be slugged. At that point you'd need to hook or bleed them out both of which the game scores you on. You get 1 point per bleed out which is the same as single hooking each survivor. Which would give a silver emblem at best and bronze at worst if somehow only one person bled out.
If all survivors escape the emblem wouldn't scale since you didn't hook but you're likely to still get a silver or bronze gatekeeper so as long as you get max chaser and maliciousness you at worst you just barely depip and at best barely null pip.
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Players don't care about what the developers consider a win. If four people are teabagging you at the exit gates then you lost, no matter how many hooks you earned. Killer players will always want kills.
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The incentive is already there BP wise. I see a lot of 3/4 escapes where the killer gets more points than anyone on the survivor team and would probably still consider it a bad game. You get more points for multiple hook actions versus survs progressing hook states.
Point is, the whole thing for killers is to KILL. A sacrifice or a mori is the satisfying part. And if someone gets killed before 3/4 gens are done then, unless killer deliberately tones down their play, gens are not going to get finished and it will be a hatch game.
The nature of the game means it is really geared towards landslide games, where it's pretty clear in the first 5-10minutes who will win.
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I don’t want “killers” to become “hookers”
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So you mean to say, according to you its not the point of the game for the Killer to kill Survivors.
Rather by you its the point of the game to Hook them 3 times.
What are Killers, murderers or service workers?
To me this seems to be a fatal misunderstanding of what makes a Killer/Survivor scenario fun.
I think Killers could adjust if you designed the game around that, it would just take a huge chunk of freedom out of how Killers do their plays. I think the loss of Killer freedom is much more damaging to the future of the game.
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forced penance is to apply broken to the person doing a pickup heal - that's considered a protection hit. sloppy is so the runner can't heal in chase and maintain pressure once penance falls off. maximum uptime on injuries. jolt is to remove the progression made on nearby gens. pick up the downed player with thrilling tremors. drop them. go to the red gens. do another chase after kicking the gen. pick up the body when thrilling tremos is available again. do a body swap. if you down all 4 then force a standup by droping a player multiple times.
of course the survivors would have to be bad. that's not the point. point is even in this dumb scenario a killer still technically wins with zero kills. so is that actually a win?
i think i prefer the mindset of kills=wins. at least it's more interesting than emblem technical wins.
here's another technical win - killer doesn't chase all game. runs instant down bear traps on trapper and blood warden. extra close hooks. places all traps near the exit gates. and waits. hooks everyone by "winning chases" without defending any gens and only having the 1 down for 4 people. hooks everyone. technically it's a win if the killer gets 4 golds.
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What about:
Trials have time limit.
Survivors cannot be killed by sacrifices, hooks only slow them down.
Instead of gates there are switches.
Turning both switches will banish killer and survs won.
After time goes down, survivors are killed by the Entity and killer won.
After time goes out there is day on the realnewso either killer is bannished or survivors are dead by daylight
(Moris would further slow survivor progress or apply some status effects).
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So if you don't defend gens at all there is almost no way to obtain a gold in gatekeeper. Trapper's instadown trap addon Honing Stone is conditional on survivors not letting teammates free them and instead freeing themselves which after someone goes down the first time they won't do that again if they are remotely trying to win. As for the Trapper if they don't engage in a chases they can't get a gold in chaser due to the emblem being time scale dependent. You get 90 points per second for the first 15 seconds of chase time, but that point value decays the longer chases goes on till it scales down to 30 points per second. The game does not really favor extremely short "chase" scenarios. It takes 650 points total just to get a bronze in chaser.
I will err on the side of caution and say that maliciousness does take power usage into account for the sake of argument which would mean that Trapper gets 4 points for "damaging" each survivor once and 16 points for having all 4 survivors go through both hook states which totals to only 20 points. So that means the malicious emblem is bronze at max playing in the way described. I'm not super sure on this one as his power isn't counted as a basic attack. He would get a gold for devout as it is a 4k with all survivors being hooked once for 1 point and 8 points for survivors all dying on hook for a total 9. In order to get the ten points needed for iri devout you need 9 hooks total.
So you get at the end of the trapper game a broken gatekeeper cause you didn't attempt to defend for the first 9 mins and spent that time setting traps. You get a bronze maliciousness emblem, a bronze chaser emblem, and gold devout emblem. This means that anyone who were to do that if there were at Bronze 3 or higher they would depip. Which would constitute a loss.
As for Forced Penance, if the survivor is still in the dying state I do not believe you get a protection hit scoring event from being hit while healing them. I could be wrong, but the way it reads on paper with regards to what conditions trigger protection hits(hits within 10 meters of Injured survivors or while killer is carrying a survivor) and with how notoriously buggy that scoring event can be. I feel that even in this scenario it would probably not be offering much value. Healing mid chase isn't really gonna be an issue with the changes to self-healing so don't really need sloppy. I'm not gonna go into another full breakdown though.
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like i said - it's possible. not that it's viable.
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How exactly would you do that, though?
I'm legitimately curious- I see a lot of talk about "hooks over kills" but nobody ever seems to go into detail as to what that means. What changes would you suggest to bring about this shift in win condition?
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There is no stated win condition. Winning is whatever you think it is. There is nothing to "change"
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I know its not question for me, but i git triggered by the phrase "nobody ever".
Here is mine
https://forums.bhvr.com/dead-by-daylight/discussion/360072/what-about-change-in-sacrifices#latest
And there was also other suggestions.
Like each kill increases gen repair speed (going with another thing - each repaired gen decreases gen repair speed) which would highly reward killers for not killing but just hooking. This one was explained in more details.
And others.
Its definitely not "nobody ever"
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People talk about changing balance for encouraging hooks over kills, but OP (and a few others I've seen) want to change the win condition specifically- that I've never seen any suggestions for.
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