lets discuss how to make a 12 hook game feasible?
survivors wanting fun games(as well as killers) usually state that chases are the most fun part of the game.
so what are your thoughts on how we can balance the game so that killers don't lose gens quickly during chases and make it fun for survivors so that multiple hooks are feasible?
would making pain res (at 15 percent) pop on every hook be seen as to op or even a basekit jolt/deadlock for killers? how about smaller map sizes and less god pallets so there are more mind gameable chases (reducing bloodlust gains to compensate)?
i would love to hear from both killer and survivor mains to see if there is a compromise on how to achieve this.
Comments
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You dont. You're not supposed to get 4k every match.
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If you're good you're supposed to get at least 3k every match. Before genrush was a problem I never tunneled/camped, all matches 4k. Now also if I play well and I don't tunnel, I find myself with lots of hooks, but 1k max 2k.
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What about more reduction of progress for a generator being worked on solo but a further increased progress with multiple players. That way you have survivors grouped up more so that it's easier for killers to disrupt.
However in order to lower the benefit of tunneling and help with situations of afk or DC'd survivors, all survivors get a small bonus generator progress for each survivor dead (or perhaps even in the dying state) depending on the amount of generators remaining. So if you do tunnel a survivor out, the game doesn't drastically swing in the killers favor.
Ultimately if they do make a DBD2, they could make the entire match a 12-15min EGC. One hook kills the survivor but the survivor respawns at a random location away from the killer, taking a chunk of time out from the ECG.
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Here is the issue with balancing around 12 hooks:
- You would basically have to make it impossible for a Survivor to die unless 8 hooks have been achieved; otherwise the Killer could just tunnel and win everyone match (which for some MMR groups, is already an issue).
- You would have to remove external hook progression factors (aka, when you are hooked, you cannot progress a hook stage), physically removing camping as a result.
- Balancing time is a bit tricky since perks like No Way Out and Grim Embrace work for a certain amount of time (not gen %, but straight up seconds), the time to open gates, managing saves/health states, on top of doing Generators.
- You need to consider that people arent perfect, so realistically you need to have room for Killer and Survivor mistakes, which becomes a lot trickier.
DBD definitely isnt balanced, but you need to consider that there is a lot of nuance with this stuff, it's not as simple as "Fix A and get Result B", you have to consider hundreds of moving parts between hundreds of perks between dozens of maps which are RNG decided between a continuum of skill levels.
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I think the idea is to make it so that winning with 12 hooks is more common than winning with less than 12 hooks. Not to make it so every game is a win.
The only way you can realistically make 12 hooking for the 4K a reality is by first making each individual hook a killer earns grant some kind of bonus that stacks. You would also need to make sure the bonus is only awarded for spreading out hooks instead of just focusing out the first survivor. It would require a pretty huge game redesign as just adding a bonus to spreading out hooks itself could make killers too strong.
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Nerf all gen speed perks, destroy them all. Destroy bnp and nerf significantly toolboxes.
Add "prizes" for choosing to not tunnel, for example make that survs are less efficient if they have been hooked. So you don't want to tunnel because if you tunnel someone out, the other survs have 100% efficiency, if you do mixed hooks you find yourself with survs that are slower in repairing, healing, etc. Obviously this needs a balance, for example a surv alone is 25% slower in repairing after being hooked once, but when repairing with someone else is 10% slower instead of 25% (These numbers are to give an idea on what I mean). This wuold encourage mixed hooks because instead of punish tunneling, you give a prize to the killer because he choose to not tunnel. With a mechanic like this, also, devs can play around it with perks and add on for both killers and survs.
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- You would have to make tunneling and camping very not worth it most of the time or just impossible in a way.
- You would have to make Survivors objective take much longer to do because most of the match all Survivors would be alive.
- You would probably have to nerf all S tier Killers.
- You would have to buff most of B tier Killers and all C or lower killers by a lot.
- You would have to rework lot of perks on both sides.
- Maybe you would have to do some changes in the end-game.
- You would have to rework ranking system.
- You would have to make sure that neither side can abuse or hold hostage or something for the other side.
- You would have to balance SWF groups (nerf them or buff the Killer that play againts them).
- You would have to rework most of the maps and make no map bigger than avarage.
All this in one patch unless you want to break the game.
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If a killer is expected to hook all 4 survivors before hooking any survivor twice, then the killer needs to reliably be able to find all 4 survivors, even if those survivors want to hide.
This means survivor hiding needs to be massively nerfed, at least for whichever survivors the killer is supposed to be chasing. And there are a lot of survivors that would be very against that.
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Why do people always jump to extremes.
Just because survivors don't like games of 3 hooks someone is dead doesn't mean we have to jump to the other extreme of 12 hooking.
Nobody (reasonable) complains about first dead at hook 5 or 6. There are inbetweens.
Changing the game to be 12 hook only is sacrificing variety for balance to make everything predictable.
I like loading into a match and not knowing if the first survivor is going to die at 3 hooks, at 6 hooks or at 9 hooks.
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That's basically a carrot and stick way of balancing but without the stick. The rewards would have to be substantial to make it more appealing then tunneling a character out of the game early for a large advantage. This also doesn't do much for the gen speeds on the survivors side as a killer would be more liking to fall back on tunneling since it's low effort, high reward once they see three gens pop.
This change would be beneficial to players who already want to do 12 hooks but not to players who want to win as soon as possible. In my opinion.
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I stated you would need a huge game redesign doing this. Ultimately I don't see the devs going this route as changing the game massively can just backfire. Seriously look at the response to the devs attempting to make a huge sweeping change to healing.
People will just need to accept that tunneling and camping are just valid ways to play.
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I would agree they probably wouldn't and even shouldn't do massive gameplay changes at this stage (the age of the game and the associated costs). The best they can do without upsetting people is bandaid changes.
If they want to permanently fix this issue they would have to redesign the game (sequel or a new IP), learn from their mistakes regarding game design throughout the lifespan of DBD and make a new game.
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It's pretty easy :
- Make all killers have no less than a 15% power difference than nurse.
- Make all killers have a movement power that defeats shift+w or limit all maps to be smaller than 9000m².
- Do not allow tiles to be heavily linked : The car park in Garden of Joy and Coal tower are extreme examples where linked tiles break the game. Allow tiles to be linked only by a pallet that creates dead zones when used.
- Limit the number of god pallets to 1-2 per map. Limit the number of pallets on any map to no more than 14.
- Make all killers have an "instant" pallet break option. Once upon a time Blight/Demo didn't break pallets base kit (/gasp). Both killers sucked when they couldn't use their power to do that. We could for example rework brutal strength so that it also allows a killer to lunge at a pallet to instantly break that pallet once every 60 seconds. For killers like Legion you just make iri button base kit and change that addon. For Nemesis you just make T2 the new T1 so he can always break pallets. Change T3 to be a "long" process that makes t3 whips damage+infect on every hit. Make the T2 whip stats be the current T3 whip stats.
- Limit SWF to no character, item, perk or offering repeats. This makes solo queue "better" in that it can choose anything and SWF gets voice coms+efficiency.
- Make all killers have good or better anti loop. If you made all the "no movement" speed killers 120% base speed this would work fine.
- Make all killers have some kind of "base slowdown" or inherent 4v1 pressure.
- Make all killer powers AND their extensions immune to flashlights (this includes Nemesis zombies).
- Give killers some base kit perks or free perk slots. Look at all the gains survivors got with the hud. Remember the plan was buff solo que then buff killers. What are some good options? The killer needs at least 2 strong perks to counter the buffs survivors received. Pick two of the following:
A) Base kit deadlock but now it has "rollback protection" so that if two gens pop at the same time one rolls back to 99% completion. The perk by the same name extends the effect for +30 seconds.
B) Give killers Base kit Fire up with one slight tweak - breaking a pallet does not remove bloodlust. Add: Every dropped pallet (looking at you any means necessary) makes destroying pallets and walls 2% faster.
C) Add new base kit mechanic: kicking a generator makes it unable to be stopped from the regression state for 30 seconds.
D) Give killers basekit No way out. Make the perk by the same name stack the effect twice but with a twist - you proc base kit and then when that ends you can proc the second version granted by the perk. Add : triggering No way out reveals your aura while the gate cannot be opened. If the user has distortion your aura will be revealed until your tokens run out.
E) Add basekit mechanic: survivors cannot escape the trial while crawling unless they have No Mither or have Unbreakable charged.
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We have an extremely simple fix, remove the ######### hooks and let killers partially sacrifice survivors, and let them respawn after like 60 seconds in random location.
No more camping, no more tunneling, no more "safe place" where survivors can't be hooked, so much problems fixed by this.
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Survivors don’t want chases. They want chases where they are guaranteed to not get caught. They want chases where they can teabag at every pallet and window and type “ez” in the end game chat.
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Its strange, I play Trapper without slowdown and tunnel, still have roughly 55% kill rate.
Even if you have 1-2K average, MMR would push you down to play against weaker teams to ensure you have higher kill rate. And if you have 3-4K average, MMR would make you play against better teams to force you lose.
Devs once said, however you play, it should work half of the time.
As reply to op, the game isnt balanced for 4K (since the title is 12 hooks game, unless 12 hooks mean 2-3K and not 4K)
It would sound stupid if I say How to make 4 escape games feasible. Its not, the game isnt balanced for 4 escape either
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Make a 1V1 chase gamemode
That's all I can offer
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It's an elimination game. The benefit of eliminating a survivor will always be of paramount benefit.
survivors wanting fun games(as well as killers) usually state that chases are the most fun part of the game.Chases derive a lot of fun from the fact that they have meaning. As survivor if you get downed there is the risk of elimination, and for the killer every second you don't down them the survivors are closer to getting the gates open.
Trying to make the game so that everyone gets hooked twice before any survivors are eliminated is an unreasonable standard. I think what is a more reasonable goal is to prevent a killer from singling in a survivor and eliminating them via the first three hooks.
I think there are a few things that could be done to make tunneling less likely - a simple one would be a haste boost for the survivor with the most hooks.
But if we're just discussing ideas, here's a radical one:
Entity Wake Up
Reduce hook timers to 15 seconds, but the timer does not start until another survivor is hooked (alternative, slightly longer timer, but starts as soon as another survivor is downed). This would mean survivors still have some pressure to get the survivor off the hook, but there is a good possibility the killer will be away from the hook when it happens. Also takes out camping.
Other crazy possibility
Start survivors at 75% gen efficiency. Every time someone else is hooked, all other survivors gain a 25% bonus, the survivor who gets hooked loses 50% efficiency, minimum 25%. If killer just tunnels someone out the other survivors will get the gens done really quickly. Other benefit - survivors will be slower on gens during the beginning of the game (which is a killer complaint) but have more of a possibility of breaking a 3 gen (which is a survivor complaint)
Things I don't think would work
Respawn: would fundamentally change what makes the game fun, the danger of getting eliminated.
Making killers stronger: Killers could have a 95% win rate and they'd still tunnel. Players should be trying to win.
Perks: DbD is already enough of a guessing game. To really stop tunneling there would have to be a perk that utterly destroyed a killer from tunneling.
Faster gens for living survivors: Lose the pressure of saying the survivor on the hook. Losing a survivor should really hurt.
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They need to add an incentive for not tunnelling and camping. End of story. They have tried adding many disincentives to camping and tunnelling in the past, e.g. Borrowed Time, Decisive Strike, and Reassurance but killers still did it. The main issue with using disincentives is accidental tunnelling and camping or situations where the survivor runs into the killer to abuse the anti-tunnel mechanic, e.g. sitting on gens and ignoring killers with old DS.
I think they should add a base kit mechanic that rewards chasing different survivors, like Grim Embrace and new Pain Res. The killer should get stronger or receive a reward every time they hook a new different survivor. If they hook all 4 survivors, they get a reward too.
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Don't get me wrong, win rate it's not a problem for me. It's rare for me to end a match with less than 3 kill. In the beginning, when genrush became a problem, I have neither tunneled nor camped, in fact I have lost so many matches. I started tunneling more and more heavily and brought my win rate back to around 80/90%. Obviously because I'm good in chase. I end my chases in like 20 seconds. The real problem is that dbd force you to play in a certain way to kill more than 1 surv, because you need to tunnel and camp.
If you're good in chase, you end chase quickly, why you have to loose because survs can make 3 gens in 30 seconds? If you're good in chase, you should win every game, same surv. I'm good in chase as surv, in fact in my swf I'm the one who keeps the killer the most in chase (and it's so much fun).
As I said, before genrush became a problem tunneling and camping weren't needed. Now genrush is a problem, so you have to tunnel to win. I don't care about it, I play to win, I play to win as many matches as I can. I don't play to draw. This game should be balanced around 4k and 4 escapes, because it would be balanced around strong killers who manage to make 4k, and strong survs who manage to make 4 escapes. Every game is balanced around top players, I don't see why dbd shouldn't be balanced around them.
I apologize for my English, I'm Italian.
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I always thought Survivors are too depended on RNG resource that the maps give. Pallets, Chests, Items that they bring, Teammate. Their main goal is to complete Gens before resources depleted. Or else after a chase is only TL and W.
There must be something for survivors to re-create lost resource, of course a match also starts with less resource.
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with this logic I could say:
survivors shouldnt escape under less than 4 mins specially extremely efficient and coordinated ones and while they escape they BM as much as possible to throw more salt on the wound.
Also by saying this you only re enforce tunneling and reward it. Because people go against the rules if possible.
As for the thread. They would need to change the baseline game or add more elements to escape. The dev's maybe, maybe not already tried adding different things but as usual they didnt like how it turn out to be.. so the game suffers as result.
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How on earth would that work? If you're good, and you're up against equally qualified opponents, how is the game supposed to be balanced if one side has a 25% winrate, and the other has a 100% 'win' rate, with a good chance of being a total landslide victory? That doesn't sound balanced to me.
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My answer would either be getting rid and phasing out looping or to give more and better anti loop to killers.
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The only important things are pallets. To open a chest is wasting time. There are lots of safe pallets in every map, survs doesn't need to learn how to loop because they can throw pallet after pallet and leave time to the others to make all gens and escape.
If you waste your resources, it's your fault. It isn't fair that survs can re-create their resources, because if survs can re-create their resources, also killers must have this possibility, for example make killer reactivate hexes.
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I would like to ask you 2 questions:
- The game is balanced around 4 hooks, how many kills would you like to get?
- The game is balanced around 10 hooks, how many kills would you like to get?
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I love how you ignore “of course the match starts with less resources”
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If you are good it is right that you face people at your same skill level, but it is right that you have the same chances of winning. Currently, 4 survs that each have the same skill as a killer have a better advantage, because the game is unbalanced in their favor and, even if the killer plays it better than them, the survs still have an advantage because they manage to make gen in very few seconds. If you give same possibilities to win to both killers and survs, you find yourself in a game that rewards which parts play better
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I haven't ignored it, sorry if I gave you this semblance. Simply, re-create resources for free is too op, also if you start with less resources. It would require a lot of balancing to be a fair function, and would still be unbalanced in certain situations. Imagine a bully squad that can re-create pallets really quick for free
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You misunderstood my concept. Instead of map spawns like 12 pallets. Reduced 1 third to 8. Then 4 wood items spawn around the map. Get the item to build pallets (only able to build non-broken pallets so 5 shack pallets is not a thing).
So pretty much instead of 12 pallets spawn by default, survivors have to build 4 of them.
there is no way you can think this idea is favor to survivors.
Survivors need more thing to do but not extend Gen time
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Oh ok, now it sounds good. Sorry for the misunderstanding, now THIS is a good idea to add something new to the gameplay that won't break the game. Less pallets + if they want some extra pallet they have to build them, nice idea
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That's not what you're arguing for though. You're arguing that, all else even, survivors should have a 25% win rate, with killers getting 75%-100% winrate.
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I don't see where you read this, and I think you dreamed it. I never said that survs with 25% win rate should face a killer with 75-100% win rate. Survs with a range like 70%-95% win rate should face killers with the same range of win rate, the problem is that survs have the advantages with this because they can break the game with things that shave like 70 seconds from a gen. I'm saying that the challenge shouldn't be based on how fast you make your objectives, it's not a speed run, it should be based only around on how you play.
Now, if you keep saying that I said "Oh but you said that survs with 25% should face killers with 70-100% win rate" I want you to prove it, because I never said such a thing
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"If you're good, you're supposed to get at least 3k every match"
What did you mean with that, if not that you think the game should be aimed at a 75/25% winrate for killers/survivors?
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It is an exaggeration to mean that if one is good he should have the possibility, at high levels, to win many games (because 3k is victory) against his peers, which is currently not the case because, as I will always say, currently 4 survivors with the same skill level of the killer they are facing have more chances of victory than the killer, because as a surv you can break the game by removing a very good part of repair time from the generators, and we are not talking about 20 seconds, we are talking about 70 seconds removed and the possibility of seeing 3 generators start in about 20/30 seconds, without the possibility of a reaction from the killer.
Obviously winning every game is physically impossible, otherwise there would be a fundamental problem.
If you thinked that with "If you're good, you're supposed to get at least 3k every match" I meant that killer is 75% skill and survs 25% skill, you just misunderstood what I meant. Of course I, being good, have to meet my peers, otherwise it would be boring to play in the first place, secondly, from a certain point of view, I would feel guilty towards those poor people I caught who maybe had just started playing and they catch me against I've been playing for 6 years now.
As I said previously, this game a few years ago was still unbalanced, but increasingly balanced than now because being against people of the same level meant having a challenge to whoever was better at predicting and closing the chase quickly (killer) or holding more (surv). In fact, I won 90% of my games without even concentrating, because all my mind games were successful and survs, losing chases very quickly, had no chance to react. Now even if they suck at chasing, they have tons of safe pallets and do gens too fast and smoothly since killers have no gen defense anymore.
I apoligize for my English, I'm Italian.
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they have trouble balancing a killer to get 7 hooks. let alone 12 hooks. perhaps dev first need to balance the weaker killers to get 7 hooks per game vs top 1% SWF before considering 12 hooks. it is hard enough winning with camping+tunneling vs strong teams before considering how to win without tunneling/camping. DBD killer are far far from non-tunnel gameplay. The vast majority of killer are nowhere near being able to play without tunneling. I do not think killer will ever be balanced for 10* hook gameplay. Survivors would likely never put up with strong killer powers. The general survivor player-base do not like much challenge. survivors would complain about strong killer powers even if the survivor was unable to get tunneled, slugged or camped. It would be funny if dbd got April fools update that removed 3 strategies for 1 day. I wonder what survivor player-base would say.
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why do you still try to 12 hook if your win stats went down so much?
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i would rather have better anti loop of passive slowdown (like pinhead) for all killers and keep looping
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Idk, but I win most of my killer games. They feel much easier then survivor games as is. Sure I don't play all killers, but from my M1 killers, I have very good results with legion, plague, doctor, hag, cannibal (and I never camp with him - not counting endgame ofcourse). I don't do bad with dredge, clown or ghost face either. But the main difference comes when I pick one of my stronger killers - like spirit and pinhead are most of the times won game (occasional group of genrushers or very skilled players do come that beat me). I don't need the games to be even easier on killer's side.
Also it took me about 5days to get iri1 on killer. My survivor is still only iri2. And I play survivor more. So again - i see no reason for more survivor nerfs (especially considering next patch that will raise my kill rate even more).
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Yeah I used to have similar results playing very fairly and still getting 3-4K with 10-12 hooks. But gens just go now lot faster and without some form of tunneling it's hard to win. Unless you get bit lucky and manage to spread hooks and at same time manage to get someone out or targeting just 2 survivors but that hard to pull off.
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Right now game is balanced that survivors need to gen rush and killers to tunnel to win if both play optimally. It's not ideal and it's not fun to get gen rushed or tunneled quickly out. It's usually not even fun to tunnel at least for me.
So what I think would be ideal balance is that killers don't feel they have to tunnel to win and survivors don't have to feel to gen rush because killer is tunneling to win. That does not mean balance should be killer should 2 hooks everyone before killing and still win.
Something in middle ground would be best without having to rebalance the game totally. Just make tunneling less viable and make gens 100s nerf toolboxes, bnp:s and gen perks. Give killer speed boost after hooking someone. Deadlock should probably be basekit as well.
This would give killers enough time to have chance to win without tunneling as that strat right now just carries most killers and kill rates would go down if just tunneling was nerfed. Optimal strat would probably be 5-6 hooks before first kill but that would also mean more killers would try to go for more hooks as now optimal strat is 3-4 hooks before first kill but still many spread hooks.
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Play blight or nurse to make 12 hook game feasible
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In fact now I hard tunnel in every match. It's the only allowed strategy against strong premade
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