Adressing the issues of Survivors
I really feel the need to make a thread about this. As a killer main myself, I am absolutely baffled by some of the killer mains on the forum right now. Pretending that killer mains are still the victims of the devs even after all the buffs killers have received. The game's balancing is definitely not perfect, but it's in a pretty good spot right now in my opinion. And I by the love of god do not understand how people on this forum can whine about gen rush like crazy, yet defend camping like their life depends on it.
Anyway this thread is to give my opinion on what fundamental design flaws of this game need to be worked on. Now I know killer mains don't like to hear it, but from a design point, camping is a real problem. It rewards killers often for little to no skill, and ruins the experience for the survivor being camped. It's quite clear for me: A game in which one of the most effective strategies for one side is the most frustrating strategy for the opposing side to deal with has a serious, fundamental design flaw.
Now before I talk about camping, I do believe that one of the other high priorities for the devs right now is to close the gap between solo and swf survivors as much as possible. Adding kindred and perhaps Bond won't close the gap entirely, but it will grant solo survivors the biggest advantages swf survivors have and would be such a huge improvement for solo survivor.
At the same time, the gap between killers needs to be closed. The power difference between Freddy and Nurse is insane.
I might make a seperate thread about that as well, but for now I'll stop here and move on to the biggest problem of the game, camping.
Camping takes little skill, yet is pretty effective, at least against a team of solo survivors, since everyone needs to tell on their own if a killer is camping or not, and once they realise that, it's already to late to gen rush the killer. No matter what some people want you to believe. In fact, countering camping is one of the biggest advantages swf survivors have over solo survivors.
Please note that I'm not saying camping is overpowered, nor am I blaming killers for camping. It's sadly a viable strategy right now, killers are allowed to use it. Same with DS and NOED, I hate those two perks, but don't get mad at the people who use it.
So in the following I'll suggest certain changes that could help reduce camping a lot. And yes, I've seen people say camping shouldn't be punished, but instead there should be an incentive for killers to not camp. I agree with having an incentive not to camp, but that won't make camping any less effective, especially against solo survivors. Camping needs a nerf, it's simple.
The first change is a must in anyway for me. It honestly fits in with adding kindred Tier 3 into the survivors base kit. Showing the aura of the killer when near a hook. But with a larger radius.
The killers aura should be shown when within a 18 meter radius of the hook. Over time, this radius grows to a total of 26 meters after 50 seconds. This way, solo survivors have the same chance as swf survivors to tell if a killer is camping or not. The only restriction here to me is that survivors need to be 28 meters or further away from the hook to see the killers aura, and can not be in a chase, otherwise they could use the aura of killers to avoid mindgames.
I would love to see more changes added though. First one is a clear nerf to camping, and the second would be a nice little nerf to gen rush that encourages not to camp and tunnel.
Nerfing camping can happen in two ways. The first, and far easier way to do this is increase the Bleed Out Timer yet again. I'd say both hook phases should take 15 or 20 seconds longer, so a survivor can survive 30 or 40 seconds longer on a hook.
The second way would be to look at how the chaser emblem discourages camping and use it on the Bleed Out timer as well. So whether a killer is within a 26 meter range of the hooked survivor, the Bleed Out Speed of the hooked survivor is decreased by 50%. This does not apply if a survivor is also within that 26 meter radius, if the killer is in a chase or once the exit gates have been powered. Also this should only apply after the survivor has been hooked for 15 seconds.
However, this camping nerf should not happen without a small buff to killers elsewhere. At least the weaker killers will need some compensation, since they struggle now already.
One idea I've read multiple times was to have survivors that just got unhooked suffer from a repair speed penalty for a certain time, which I think would be great. Personally, I would suggest that a survivor gets a 20% decreased repair speed and an 8% decreased healing speed for 90 seconds after being unhooked (that do not stack!). This way killers will also have more reason to go for the unhooker instead of the person who got unhooked. Once one survivor is dead these numbers should be cut in half. 10% decreased repair speed and 4% decreased healing speed.
At the same time, I would love to see survivors gain a 20% increased repair and 15% increased healing speed for every dead or disconnected survivor, to further balance tunneling, since right now the game's balancing shifts extremely once one survivors is removed from the trial.
The only fear I have is that top tier killers might become too good with this change. A nerf to camping is simply a nerf to a certain killer strategy, while the decreased repairing speed of unhooked survivors is a general nerf to gen rush. I could see Nurse becoming even more overpowered than she is now.
Please note that I'm not saying gen rush would be completely solved, gens can still be repaired very fast, there's no doubt, but before there is any more significant gen rush nerf, other parts of the game have to be adressed first.
Personally I feel like these changes would improve the experience of the game a lot. Less camping, and even a small way of helping with the effectivity of gen rush. I think it's important to address camping and tunneling now. It's definitely what makes survivor often a frustrating experience, and with less of camping and tunneling, this game will be in such a better state. I beg of changes like these to happen. Yes, camping isn't overpowered, but it's just no fun. And playing a game is supposed to be fun, for both sides. If you're wondering why lobby times have been longer for killers only, well this might be one of the reasons. Why play survivor if you get camped often?
For anyone interested in the concrete numbers of the gen rush and tunneling nerfs, here they are:
20% Repair Speed decrease: 80s/0.8 = 100s.
8% Healing Speed decrease: 16s/0.92 = 17.39s
20% increased Repair Speed: 80s/1.2 = 66.6s
40% increased Repair Speed: 80s/1.4 = 57.14s
60% increased repair Speed: 80s/1.6 = 50s
15% increased Healing Speed: 16s/1.15 = 13.91s 32s/1.15 = 27.83
30% increased Healing Speed: 16s/1.3 = 12.31s 32s/1.3 = 24.62
45% increased Healing Speed: 16s/1.45 = 11.03s 32s/1.45 = 22.07s
10% Repair Speed decrease: 66.6s/0.9 = 74s (cause repair time is only 66.6 seconds once one survivor is dead)
4% Healing Speed decrease: 13.91s/0.96 = 14.49s (cause healing speed is reduced to 13.91 seconds once one survivor is dead)
Please also note that these number are just spontaneous suggestions, ideas for how I believe the game could be balanced optimally.
Oh and Insidious and Dying Light need a rework. Such awful perks.
Comments
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It's obvious some people play one side only, outside of challenges.1
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Those calculations make zero sense. Read this thread, please: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/26495/psa-how-interaction-speed-reduction-calculations-work
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@Tzeentchling9 said:
..Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
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@Orion said:
Those calculations make zero sense. Read this thread, please: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/26495/psa-how-interaction-speed-reduction-calculations-workI don't get it. It looks like that's exactly the maths I used here on my post. Or where is the difference?
I get the same result when using the maths that I used on all the other numbers of my post on your example.2 -
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.ad19970 said:@Tzeentchling9 said:
..Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
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@ad19970 said:
@Orion said:
Those calculations make zero sense. Read this thread, please: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/26495/psa-how-interaction-speed-reduction-calculations-workI don't get it. It looks like that's exactly the maths I used here on my post. Or where is the difference?
I get the same result when using the maths that I used on all the other numbers of my post on your example.A wrong answer stays wrong, no matter how often you re-calculate it.
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@ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said:
..Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Some people like to use that picture when someone claims to be a killer main but don't support buffs for killers only. Same goes for survivors, but i don't see it that often.
@Tzeentchling9 is known for being an extremely killer sided member. To the point that i basically ignore him/her.7 -
@ad19970 said:
@Orion said:
Those calculations make zero sense. Read this thread, please: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/26495/psa-how-interaction-speed-reduction-calculations-workI don't get it. It looks like that's exactly the maths I used here on my post. Or where is the difference?
I get the same result when using the maths that I used on all the other numbers of my post on your example.I realized some of them were just a formatting issue. Specifically, you make calculations for healing using Self-Care and not using Self-Care in the same line without any obvious separation between the two.
However, these still don't make sense:
24% Repair Speed decrease: 80s/0.8 = 100s
12% Repair Speed decrease: 66.6s/0.9 = 74s (cause repair time is only 66.6 seconds once one survivor is dead)1-0.24 is 0.76; not 0.8. Similarly, 1-0.12 is 0.88. Maybe they were approximations, and if so, I'd advise against the former.
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You make some good points, but personally I wouldn't start working on anything until I'd fix the stupid ranking system, which, I've said so many times, should revolve around chases. What's the point of any balance, if your teammates or the killer are at the wrong rank. This has always been the biggest problem of this game. People at ranks where they don't belong.
Right now if the killer chases you whole match, you don't pip. Killer comes and complains on the forum that he is rank 1 and can't catch anyone, than the devs implement unrealistic changes. Meanwhile there are killers like truetalent that it's impossible to escape from, no matter what killer he plays. Yes, big surprise, he is not the only one, he is not Jesus. Go play survivor at rank 1 if you don't believe me.
Meanwhile, there's survivors with urban evasion and empathy, they do gens, chase injured players around the map to heal them to get emblem points, they reach rank 1, can't even drop a pallet or do a proper loop, get hooked and disconnect, ######### the whole team over.
Until they fix the ranking system to be about chases and nothing else, there's no point to discuss any balance.Edit: today I had 2 matches at rank 1 vs killers that couldn't get a hook whole match, but they ended up sacrificing 2 survivors and pip because they had noed. Do they belong at rank1? No! Do they think survivors are op? ######### yeah!
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@Vietfox said:
@ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said:
..Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Some people like to use that picture when someone claims to be a killer main but don't support buffs for killers only. Same goes for survivors, but i don't see it that often.
@Tzeentchling9 is known for being an extremely killer sided member. To the point that i basically ignore him/her.Yeah I know what the picture means, I just can't believe I'm being accused of pretending that I'm a killer main just because I want camping to be nerfed and the game to be improved. I don't get how some people can be so biased. I mean I'm even for a gen rush nerf, just camping and tunneling is a bigger problem of this game in my opinion. Getting camped means you can't even play properly.
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@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:@Tzeentchling9 said:
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Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
Wut? Are you telling me a killer main being against camping is the equivalent of a survivor being against doing gens?
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@Orion said:
@ad19970 said:
@Orion said:
Those calculations make zero sense. Read this thread, please: https://forum.deadbydaylight.com/en/discussion/26495/psa-how-interaction-speed-reduction-calculations-workI don't get it. It looks like that's exactly the maths I used here on my post. Or where is the difference?
I get the same result when using the maths that I used on all the other numbers of my post on your example.I realized some of them were just a formatting issue. Specifically, you make calculations for healing using Self-Care and not using Self-Care in the same line without any obvious separation between the two.
However, these still don't make sense:
24% Repair Speed decrease: 80s/0.8 = 100s
12% Repair Speed decrease: 66.6s/0.9 = 74s (cause repair time is only 66.6 seconds once one survivor is dead)1-0.24 is 0.76; not 0.8. Similarly, 1-0.12 is 0.88. Maybe they were approximations, and if so, I'd advise against the former.
Yes no I'm sorry. Those are BS. I wasn't quite sure what numbers i wanted to settle with so I changed the numbers a few times and forgot to change those. Those make absolutely no sense. I had 24% and 12% at first, and then changed it to 20% and 10%. I'll change that immediately.
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@ad19970 said:
@Vietfox said:
@ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said:
..Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Some people like to use that picture when someone claims to be a killer main but don't support buffs for killers only. Same goes for survivors, but i don't see it that often.
@Tzeentchling9 is known for being an extremely killer sided member. To the point that i basically ignore him/her.Yeah I know what the picture means, I just can't believe I'm being accused of pretending that I'm a killer main just because I want camping to be nerfed and the game to be improved. I don't get how some people can be so biased. I mean I'm even for a gen rush nerf, just camping and tunneling is a bigger problem of this game in my opinion. Getting camped means you can't even play properly.
Here's the thing: camping is already bad for the Killer unless the Survivors decide to reward it. This is an indisputable fact. With that in mind, punishing the Killer (and note that punishment doesn't work, period) is absurd.
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@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:@Tzeentchling9 said:
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Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
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Play My Way (The "Right" Way) or Lose Automatically - Patch Title
Any suggestion that tries to shoehorn people into playing a certain way/only use certain perks/don't do x on either side of the game is not going to help the game with its core issues.1 -
@Orion said:
@ad19970 said:
@Vietfox said:
@ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said:
..Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Some people like to use that picture when someone claims to be a killer main but don't support buffs for killers only. Same goes for survivors, but i don't see it that often.
@Tzeentchling9 is known for being an extremely killer sided member. To the point that i basically ignore him/her.Yeah I know what the picture means, I just can't believe I'm being accused of pretending that I'm a killer main just because I want camping to be nerfed and the game to be improved. I don't get how some people can be so biased. I mean I'm even for a gen rush nerf, just camping and tunneling is a bigger problem of this game in my opinion. Getting camped means you can't even play properly.
Here's the thing: camping is already bad for the Killer unless the Survivors decide to reward it. This is an indisputable fact. With that in mind, punishing the Killer (and note that punishment doesn't work, period) is absurd.
Ok I'll have to respectfully disagree with you here. Camping can be punished if the survivor team is really good, or if they can communicate with each other. But especially against lower ranks camping is way to effective. And the game can't only be balanced around swf and absolute pro players. Like I said in my post, a team of solo survivors only will most often struggle against a camping killer. This is because if someone doesn't get unhooked, than everyone not going for the unhook will think that nobody is going for the unhook, running to the hook only to then realise the killer is camping. The best they can do is run back to the gen they've been working on, but they've waisted a lot of time doing that. If every survivor does that, well then gen rushing the killer to punish him for camping won't work properly.
Camping is beyond unfun for survivors. Mainly the one being camped. There should be as little incentive as possible to camp. And honestly, why not punish the killer for camping? It takes no skill and grants the killer an easy kill. Couple that with NOED and you have a guaranteed 2k no matter what skill level you are. That's simply not good design. Reward the killer for playing skillful, punish him for playing bad.
Also, what do you mean with punishment won't work? I know there has been something tested on the ptb once that was exploited by survivors. But I don't see how the changes I suggest could be exploited. Especially not the ability to see the killers aura when in a certain range of the hook. That's just giving solo survivors the ability that swf survivors already have. It's an absolute must in my opinion.
Plus I've also suggested an incentive for killers to not tunnel in form of a killer buff.2 -
@Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:@Tzeentchling9 said:
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Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah I was asking myself if that was what he meant. Terrible comparison.
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@Raccoon said:
Play My Way (The "Right" Way) or Lose Automatically - Patch TitleAny suggestion that tries to shoehorn people into playing a certain way/only use certain perks/don't do x on either side of the game is not going to help the game with its core issues.
Are you telling me that's what my post is doing? Forcing others to play with my rules? Are you missing the fact that nerfing camping is just for the better of the game's design? It's not about wanting other players to play the way I want them to play, it's about improving the game and making it more fun. How are survivors supposed to enjoy the game when they get camped? Especially multiple times in a row? You really think people play survivor so killers can get their fun time? They want to have fun to. That's where the design of the game is decisive. A game needs to be designed so both sides can have as much fun as possible. But right now, due to design choices, the game can be an absolute chore for survivors.
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@Sinner said:
You make some good points, but personally I wouldn't start working on anything until I'd fix the stupid ranking system, which, I've said so many times, should revolve around chases. What's the point of any balance, if your teammates or the killer are at the wrong rank. This has always been the biggest problem of this game. People at ranks where they don't belong.
Right now if the killer chases you whole match, you don't pip. Killer comes and complains on the forum that he is rank 1 and can't catch anyone, than the devs implement unrealistic changes. Meanwhile there are killers like truetalent that it's impossible to escape from, no matter what killer he plays. Yes, big surprise, he is not the only one, he is not Jesus. Go play survivor at rank 1 if you don't believe me.
Meanwhile, there's survivors with urban evasion and empathy, they do gens, chase injured players around the map to heal them to get emblem points, they reach rank 1, can't even drop a pallet or do a proper loop, get hooked and disconnect, [BAD WORD] the whole team over.
Until they fix the ranking system to be about chases and nothing else, there's no point to discuss any balance.Edit: today I had 2 matches at rank 1 vs killers that couldn't get a hook whole match, but they ended up sacrificing 2 survivors and pip because they had noed. Do they belong at rank1? No! Do they think survivors are op? [BAD WORD] yeah!
Yeah you've got a point there actually. The ranking system needs some serious work. Maybe even before they can properly balance the game. And I wouldn't say it's impossible to escape tru3ta1ent, but it's very hard and it shows that killers don't need any more buffs at the moment, no matter what some people say.
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He is because thats what some people on here genuinely believe.ad19970 said:@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:@Tzeentchling9 said:
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Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
Wut? Are you telling me a killer main being against camping is the equivalent of a survivor being against doing gens?
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@ad19970 said:
@Sinner said:
You make some good points, but personally I wouldn't start working on anything until I'd fix the stupid ranking system, which, I've said so many times, should revolve around chases. What's the point of any balance, if your teammates or the killer are at the wrong rank. This has always been the biggest problem of this game. People at ranks where they don't belong.
Right now if the killer chases you whole match, you don't pip. Killer comes and complains on the forum that he is rank 1 and can't catch anyone, than the devs implement unrealistic changes. Meanwhile there are killers like truetalent that it's impossible to escape from, no matter what killer he plays. Yes, big surprise, he is not the only one, he is not Jesus. Go play survivor at rank 1 if you don't believe me.
Meanwhile, there's survivors with urban evasion and empathy, they do gens, chase injured players around the map to heal them to get emblem points, they reach rank 1, can't even drop a pallet or do a proper loop, get hooked and disconnect, [BAD WORD] the whole team over.
Until they fix the ranking system to be about chases and nothing else, there's no point to discuss any balance.Edit: today I had 2 matches at rank 1 vs killers that couldn't get a hook whole match, but they ended up sacrificing 2 survivors and pip because they had noed. Do they belong at rank1? No! Do they think survivors are op? [BAD WORD] yeah!
Yeah you've got a point there actually. The ranking system needs some serious work. Maybe even before they can properly balance the game. And I wouldn't say it's impossible to escape tru3ta1ent, but it's very hard and it shows that killers don't need any more buffs at the moment, no matter what some people say.
It should be impossible to escape 3k hour guys who play this game as their living unless you are playing a SWF with 4 guys on the same level. Thats my opinion about this
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1. Yes
2. Yes
3. Apparently my copy is the only copy of the game that allows for scenarios where it's 100% advantageous, if not necessary, to camp someone out of the game.
4. Most people in PVP games don't like being placed in difficult / losing scenarios, but it's necessary by the very nature of the game rules. If you can't handle a game's win/loss routine, don't play it.
5. The killer has no knowledge of the prior game's events.
6. I think that people play whatever role they want for their own amusement, and that fun, much like opinion, is subjective to the individual. I highly doubt that a killer being looped successfully is experiencing the same level of entertainment/excitement as the looper, much like a survivor getting mori'ed is probably on the opposite end of the emotional spectrum to the person getting a kill.
Both sides having fun, regardless of success, strategy, and gametime is entirely possible, and would probably occur far more often if both sides left their sense of entitlement and feelings/ego at the door.
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I assume that the survivors you mention, would leave a gen at 90% regressing. Instead of going back and finishing it.ad19970 said:@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:@Tzeentchling9 said:
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Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
Wut? Are you telling me a killer main being against camping is the equivalent of a survivor being against doing gens?
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Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient...Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:@Tzeentchling9 said:
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Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
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Tunneling is so widely used these days. Even if the killer wasn't tunneling at all. He gets accused of it. Same goes for camping.The_Crusader said:
He is because thats what some people on here genuinely believe.ad19970 said:@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:@Tzeentchling9 said:
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Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
Wut? Are you telling me a killer main being against camping is the equivalent of a survivor being against doing gens?
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OP actually makes some pretty good points. If you aren't a camping/tunneling killer then this is overall a killer buff. The one thing I think killers should get in compensation is to change the way generators are done at the start of the game. I think generator progress should have a 25% penalty for the first 2 and a half minutes of the game or until one generator is completed. Survivors would get a 1000 bloodpoint bonus for first gen completed. This would help counter the survivor snowball.
Edit: One other thing killers should get in the way of compensation is for BBQ aura to be removed from the perk and added to the base game. If survivors get kindred for free to help counter camping, killers should get BBQ for free to have a destination after hooking.
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@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient...
Mmmh what? You hook someone and eventually dies, either because no one rescued or because you hook that survivor for a 2nd/3rd time. Gens don't get done by themselves.
I swear your comments were smarter before my ban.2 -
I love discussions like this for people actually have a discussion. However you all are forgetting one very important little titbit.
The human element.
Yeah you kind of need humans to play this game. When it comes down to it yes telling and camping can be very effective at low rank however, experienced players will see this coming a mile away.
What they will pretty much do is either check to see if they can make the save or literally run halfway across the map and just keep repairing generators. Even low rank players will learn this; having a save backfire on them a few times.
Not to mention that at low ranks you'll be quite amazed to see the amount of players actually willing to help one another like this isn't a team-based game to begin with. Has cold-hearted as this might sound when I first started playing this game when it first came to PlayStation 4. Yes I have the PC version but I only use that for ptb. Point is I did not try to save anybody1 -
If you think I don't have fun watching a killer camp me after I loop them for 3-5 gens and settle just for 1k most times i guess I don't know what fun is... knowing that most killers fall for the same stupid mind games and get salty over the same crap I do brings me joy.... if there was more for me to do as a survivor I would be less focused on ruining someone's game but until I have more to do .. i'll enjoy watching the salt trail left by the killer from them patrolling my hook at the end of the match0
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I'm sorry.Bravo0413 said:If you think I don't have fun watching a killer camp me after I loop them for 3-5 gens and settle just for 1k most times i guess I don't know what fun is... knowing that most killers fall for the same stupid mind games and get salty over the same crap I do brings me joy.... if there was more for me to do as a survivor I would be less focused on ruining someone's game but until I have more to do .. i'll enjoy watching the salt trail left by the killer from them patrolling my hook at the end of the match
Your idea of fun does not mesh with that of other players, so your entirely personal feelings and reactions are somehow wrong.
/s
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And the problem is this helps out nurse and billy the most.Dreamnomad said:OP actually makes some pretty good points. If you aren't a camping/tunneling killer then this is overall a killer buff. The one thing I think killers should get in compensation is to change the way generators are done at the start of the game. I think generator progress should have a 25% penalty for the first 2 and a half minutes of the game or until one generator is completed. Survivors would get a 1000 bloodpoint bonus for first gen completed. This would help counter the survivor snowball.
Edit: One other thing killers should get in the way of compensation is for BBQ aura to be removed from the perk and added to the base game. If survivors get kindred for free to help counter camping, killers should get BBQ for free to have a destination after hooking.
How do survivors counter their snowballs? And those are the two strongest killers gor taking advantage of bbq.
The gulf between the top killer and bottom killer is huge.0 -
Killer hooks someone, that survivor gets unhooked. Killer casually finds the same survivor = tunneling.Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient...
Mmmh what? You hook someone and eventually dies, either because no one rescued or because you hook that survivor for a 2nd/3rd time. Gens don't get done by themselves.
I swear your comments were smarter before my ban.
Gens need to be done by survivors.
But I've never seen a survivor abandon a gen that was 80% done. They always stay close (camp) and continue (tunnel) the gen once the killer left.
It's about perspective. If the killer does it, its despicable. If survivors do it, it's considered normal. But both sides do exactly the same thing.1 -
@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens. You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient...
Mmmh what? You hook someone and eventually dies, either because no one rescued or because you hook that survivor for a 2nd/3rd time. Gens don't get done by themselves.
I swear your comments were smarter before my ban.
Killer hooks someone, that survivor gets unhooked. Killer casually finds the same survivor = tunneling.
Gens need to be done by survivors.
But I've never seen a survivor abandon a gen that was 80% done. They always stay close (camp) and continue (tunnel) the gen once the killer left.It's about perspective. If the killer does it, its despicable. If survivors do it, it's considered normal. But both sides do exactly the same thing.
If survivors remain close to the gen killer just need to look around and chase them, if killer decides to camp the gen be sure i'll go do another gen, have fun camping that gen!
If killer camps a survivor for no reason yeah, it's kinda cheap because the chances of getting out alive are (almost) or non existent. If a survivor camps a gen killer has chances to chase and down that survivor, especially because that survivor will be close.
No Tsulan, they are different things, it's not about perspective.4 -
No, you're right. It's not the same. Since survivors got perks like BT which aim exactly at unhooking camped survivors.Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens. You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient...
Mmmh what? You hook someone and eventually dies, either because no one rescued or because you hook that survivor for a 2nd/3rd time. Gens don't get done by themselves.
I swear your comments were smarter before my ban.
Killer hooks someone, that survivor gets unhooked. Killer casually finds the same survivor = tunneling.
Gens need to be done by survivors.
But I've never seen a survivor abandon a gen that was 80% done. They always stay close (camp) and continue (tunnel) the gen once the killer left.It's about perspective. If the killer does it, its despicable. If survivors do it, it's considered normal. But both sides do exactly the same thing.
If survivors remain close to the gen killer just need to look around and chase them, if killer decides to camp the gen be sure i'll go do another gen, have fun camping that gen!
If killer camps a survivor for no reason yeah, it's kinda cheap because the chances of getting out alive are (almost) or non existent. If a survivor camps a gen killer has chances to chase and down that survivor, especially because that survivor will be close.
No Tsulan, they are different things, it's not about perspective.
It's 4vs1 killer has to (I know this might surprise you) Kill. It doesn't matter how he achieves that goal.
Survivors have to do gens. Doesn't matter how they achieve theirs.3 -
@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens. You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient... Mmmh what? You hook someone and eventually dies, either because no one rescued or because you hook that survivor for a 2nd/3rd time. Gens don't get done by themselves. I swear your comments were smarter before my ban. Killer hooks someone, that survivor gets unhooked. Killer casually finds the same survivor = tunneling. Gens need to be done by survivors.
But I've never seen a survivor abandon a gen that was 80% done. They always stay close (camp) and continue (tunnel) the gen once the killer left.
It's about perspective. If the killer does it, its despicable. If survivors do it, it's considered normal. But both sides do exactly the same thing.
If survivors remain close to the gen killer just need to look around and chase them, if killer decides to camp the gen be sure i'll go do another gen, have fun camping that gen!
If killer camps a survivor for no reason yeah, it's kinda cheap because the chances of getting out alive are (almost) or non existent. If a survivor camps a gen killer has chances to chase and down that survivor, especially because that survivor will be close.
No Tsulan, they are different things, it's not about perspective.
No, you're right. It's not the same. Since survivors got perks like BT which aim exactly at unhooking camped survivors.
It's 4vs1 killer has to (I know this might surprise you) Kill. It doesn't matter how he achieves that goal.
Survivors have to do gens. Doesn't matter how they achieve theirs.BT is kinda useless when gates aren't open. And yes, killer has to kill doesn't matter how (i guess), that's why i just called it "cheap". But any killer who camps right off the bat without reasons clearly is not using all their potential. If you wanna get your kill that way then so be it...
3 -
@Raccoon said:
1. YesYes
Apparently my copy is the only copy of the game that allows for scenarios where it's 100% advantageous, if not necessary, to camp someone out of the game.
Most people in PVP games don't like being placed in difficult / losing scenarios, but it's necessary by the very nature of the game rules. If you can't handle a game's win/loss routine, don't play it.
The killer has no knowledge of the prior game's events.
I think that people play whatever role they want for their own amusement, and that fun, much like opinion, is subjective to the individual. I highly doubt that a killer being looped successfully is experiencing the same level of entertainment/excitement as the looper, much like a survivor getting mori'ed is probably on the opposite end of the emotional spectrum to the person getting a kill.
Both sides having fun, regardless of success, strategy, and gametime is entirely possible, and would probably occur far more often if both sides left their sense of entitlement and feelings/ego at the door.
@Raccoon said:
1. YesYes
Apparently my copy is the only copy of the game that allows for scenarios where it's 100% advantageous, if not necessary, to camp someone out of the game.
Most people in PVP games don't like being placed in difficult / losing scenarios, but it's necessary by the very nature of the game rules. If you can't handle a game's win/loss routine, don't play it.
The killer has no knowledge of the prior game's events.
I think that people play whatever role they want for their own amusement, and that fun, much like opinion, is subjective to the individual. I highly doubt that a killer being looped successfully is experiencing the same level of entertainment/excitement as the looper, much like a survivor getting mori'ed is probably on the opposite end of the emotional spectrum to the person getting a kill.
Both sides having fun, regardless of success, strategy, and gametime is entirely possible, and would probably occur far more often if both sides left their sense of entitlement and feelings/ego at the door.
Well wrong and wrong. I'm not trying to get people to play my way, I'm trying to give suggestions on how the game can become more enjoyable.
Which situations would that be? And how would they be affected by the changes I suggested? Don't get me wrong, I do believe you, I'd just like to know exactly.
That's not the point. Survivors can be put in losing situations without camping. The difference is they can still play the game and get some enjoyment. I don't see how looping is the same for killers. Chases have always been the core part of the game. I mean what are survivors supposed to do otherwise? It's part of the chases.Well you can call me entitled, but I'm not. I was just suggesting changes that would improve the game for survivors. Once again, getting camped is so unfun because you can't even play the game properly when getting camped.
And I do believe that if one gets camped multiple times in a row, well than that person might just stop playing the game because what is the point of still playing the game? Pretty sure that's one of the reasons why kiler lobby times have increased.
I mean all I can tell you is that a game is supposed to be fun for both sides, even when losing. But not being able to play the game properly is not fun. This isn't really about balance, it's about design. The better a game is designed, the more fun both sides wil have no matter if they are losing or winning.
FPS games for example. Even when in the losing team, I'm at least still able to play the game properly and have some enjoyment.0 -
@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
Wut? Are you telling me a killer main being against camping is the equivalent of a survivor being against doing gens?
I assume that the survivors you mention, would leave a gen at 90% regressing. Instead of going back and finishing it.
What? That doesn't make any sense. Are you comparing that to camping or what?
1 -
@Tsulan said:
The_Crusader said:
ad19970 said:@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
Wut? Are you telling me a killer main being against camping is the equivalent of a survivor being against doing gens?
He is because thats what some people on here genuinely believe.
Tunneling is so widely used these days. Even if the killer wasn't tunneling at all. He gets accused of it. Same goes for camping.
You can be sure that when I say tunneling, I really mean the extreme tunneling. Same goes for camping. I'm not talking about hook patrolling when a killer has a reason to believe a survivor is near a hook. Cause a gen is almost completed for example. I've been called camper and tunneler as well, by people who don't know what tunneling and camping really means, or when it becomes an actual problem.
0 -
@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient...
Tunneling a gen isn't even a thing. Completing a gen to 100% is something completely different than tunneling one survivor until he is dead. Cause that just ruins the experience of the survivor. Which is why I suggest to balance the game more so that killers have more incentive to not tunnel and less incentive to tunnel. I don't want killers to have less chances of getting kills, I just want it to be fairer and more fun for both sides.
1 -
@Raccoon said:
Bravo0413 said:If you think I don't have fun watching a killer camp me after I loop them for 3-5 gens and settle just for 1k most times i guess I don't know what fun is... knowing that most killers fall for the same stupid mind games and get salty over the same crap I do brings me joy.... if there was more for me to do as a survivor I would be less focused on ruining someone's game but until I have more to do .. i'll enjoy watching the salt trail left by the killer from them patrolling my hook at the end of the match
I'm sorry.
Your idea of fun does not mesh with that of other players, so your entirely personal feelings and reactions are somehow wrong.
/s
I guess another reference to me? Dude I swear it's really not that hard to understand that that's not my point, by the love of god.
0 -
BT has been recently buffed. So the killer has to hit that survivor twice no matter what. Of course, the survivors skill impacts here. Since a skilled survivor could loop a killer for several minutes.Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens. You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient... Mmmh what? You hook someone and eventually dies, either because no one rescued or because you hook that survivor for a 2nd/3rd time. Gens don't get done by themselves. I swear your comments were smarter before my ban. Killer hooks someone, that survivor gets unhooked. Killer casually finds the same survivor = tunneling. Gens need to be done by survivors.
But I've never seen a survivor abandon a gen that was 80% done. They always stay close (camp) and continue (tunnel) the gen once the killer left.
It's about perspective. If the killer does it, its despicable. If survivors do it, it's considered normal. But both sides do exactly the same thing.
If survivors remain close to the gen killer just need to look around and chase them, if killer decides to camp the gen be sure i'll go do another gen, have fun camping that gen!
If killer camps a survivor for no reason yeah, it's kinda cheap because the chances of getting out alive are (almost) or non existent. If a survivor camps a gen killer has chances to chase and down that survivor, especially because that survivor will be close.
No Tsulan, they are different things, it's not about perspective.
No, you're right. It's not the same. Since survivors got perks like BT which aim exactly at unhooking camped survivors.
It's 4vs1 killer has to (I know this might surprise you) Kill. It doesn't matter how he achieves that goal.
Survivors have to do gens. Doesn't matter how they achieve theirs.BT is kinda useless when gates aren't open. And yes, killer has to kill doesn't matter how (i guess), that's why i just called it "cheap". But any killer who camps right off the bat without reasons clearly is not using all their potential. If you wanna get your kill that way then so be it...
Oh a killer needs a reason to kill? That's cute...
Not like his name is killer or anything...1 -
Where is the lol button when you need it the most?!ad19970 said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens.
You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient...
Tunneling a gen isn't even a thing. Completing a gen to 100% is something completely different than tunneling one survivor until he is dead. Cause that just ruins the experience of the survivor. Which is why I suggest to balance the game more so that killers have more incentive to not tunnel and less incentive to tunnel. I don't want killers to have less chances of getting kills, I just want it to be fairer and more fun for both sides.
Anyway, completing a gen and killing a survivor is exactly the same. Every side completing their only objective.
Oh and ruining a survivors fun? That's cute. A few days ago I got called out for letting survivors escape on purpose. Btw, those very survivors didn't care at all about my fun. Even after making it clear, that I don't want to kill them. They insulted.2 -
@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens. You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient... Mmmh what? You hook someone and eventually dies, either because no one rescued or because you hook that survivor for a 2nd/3rd time. Gens don't get done by themselves. I swear your comments were smarter before my ban. Killer hooks someone, that survivor gets unhooked. Killer casually finds the same survivor = tunneling. Gens need to be done by survivors.
But I've never seen a survivor abandon a gen that was 80% done. They always stay close (camp) and continue (tunnel) the gen once the killer left. It's about perspective. If the killer does it, its despicable. If survivors do it, it's considered normal. But both sides do exactly the same thing. If survivors remain close to the gen killer just need to look around and chase them, if killer decides to camp the gen be sure i'll go do another gen, have fun camping that gen! If killer camps a survivor for no reason yeah, it's kinda cheap because the chances of getting out alive are (almost) or non existent. If a survivor camps a gen killer has chances to chase and down that survivor, especially because that survivor will be close. No Tsulan, they are different things, it's not about perspective. No, you're right. It's not the same. Since survivors got perks like BT which aim exactly at unhooking camped survivors. It's 4vs1 killer has to (I know this might surprise you) Kill. It doesn't matter how he achieves that goal.
Survivors have to do gens. Doesn't matter how they achieve theirs.
BT is kinda useless when gates aren't open. And yes, killer has to kill doesn't matter how (i guess), that's why i just called it "cheap". But any killer who camps right off the bat without reasons clearly is not using all their potential. If you wanna get your kill that way then so be it...
BT has been recently buffed. So the killer has to hit that survivor twice no matter what. Of course, the survivors skill impacts here. Since a skilled survivor could loop a killer for several minutes.
Oh a killer needs a reason to kill? That's cute...
Not like his name is killer or anything...If survivor loops the killer for several minutes that killer is bad, plain and simple.
No, i said a reason to camp. I get it if there are survivors close by, but staying there because killers feel like doing that? Those killers are simply not using their potential. But hey, i won't argue if you say that you have fun while staring at that hooked survivor for 2 minutes...
1 -
Not everything is about you - I'm pretty certain that the general consensus is hanging on the hook =/= fun.
You're a "player," not multiple "players."
Anyways, it's sad to see another thread become:
0 -
I never said that. I find camping utterly boring. I rarely camp. Usually only if someone pissed me off.Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens. You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient... Mmmh what? You hook someone and eventually dies, either because no one rescued or because you hook that survivor for a 2nd/3rd time. Gens don't get done by themselves. I swear your comments were smarter before my ban. Killer hooks someone, that survivor gets unhooked. Killer casually finds the same survivor = tunneling. Gens need to be done by survivors.
But I've never seen a survivor abandon a gen that was 80% done. They always stay close (camp) and continue (tunnel) the gen once the killer left. It's about perspective. If the killer does it, its despicable. If survivors do it, it's considered normal. But both sides do exactly the same thing. If survivors remain close to the gen killer just need to look around and chase them, if killer decides to camp the gen be sure i'll go do another gen, have fun camping that gen! If killer camps a survivor for no reason yeah, it's kinda cheap because the chances of getting out alive are (almost) or non existent. If a survivor camps a gen killer has chances to chase and down that survivor, especially because that survivor will be close. No Tsulan, they are different things, it's not about perspective. No, you're right. It's not the same. Since survivors got perks like BT which aim exactly at unhooking camped survivors. It's 4vs1 killer has to (I know this might surprise you) Kill. It doesn't matter how he achieves that goal.
Survivors have to do gens. Doesn't matter how they achieve theirs.
BT is kinda useless when gates aren't open. And yes, killer has to kill doesn't matter how (i guess), that's why i just called it "cheap". But any killer who camps right off the bat without reasons clearly is not using all their potential. If you wanna get your kill that way then so be it...
BT has been recently buffed. So the killer has to hit that survivor twice no matter what. Of course, the survivors skill impacts here. Since a skilled survivor could loop a killer for several minutes.
Oh a killer needs a reason to kill? That's cute...
Not like his name is killer or anything...If survivor loops the killer for several minutes that killer is bad, plain and simple.
No, i said a reason to camp. I get it if there are survivors close by, but staying there because killers feel like doing that? Those killers are simply not using their potential. But hey, i won't argue if you say that you have fun while staring at that hooked survivor for 2 minutes...
BUT I fully understand killers that do camp.0 -
@Tsulan said:
ad19970 said:@Tsulan said:
Vietfox said:
@Tsulan said: ad19970 said:
@Tzeentchling9 said: .. Oh come on. You're not being serious right? Or are you telling me killer mains can not be against camping and tunneling?
Of course they can be against it. Just like survivors are against completing gens. You would have a point if camping was the only way to get a kill, but it's not. Bad comparison.
Yeah, tunneling a gen isn't the only way to finish them. Doing them only 50% and leaving them alone is way more efficient...
Tunneling a gen isn't even a thing. Completing a gen to 100% is something completely different than tunneling one survivor until he is dead. Cause that just ruins the experience of the survivor. Which is why I suggest to balance the game more so that killers have more incentive to not tunnel and less incentive to tunnel. I don't want killers to have less chances of getting kills, I just want it to be fairer and more fun for both sides.
Where is the lol button when you need it the most?!
Anyway, completing a gen and killing a survivor is exactly the same. Every side completing their only objective.Oh and ruining a survivors fun? That's cute. A few days ago I got called out for letting survivors escape on purpose. Btw, those very survivors didn't care at all about my fun. Even after making it clear, that I don't want to kill them. They insulted.
Funny to think you need a lol button for that comment, but whatever.
Sure, you've got a point, it's similar. But there's no common sense for survivors to just leave a gen when it's almost repaired. And yes, there's no reason to ignore an injured survivor. No doubt. And you shouldn't. But killers have quite the incentive to just purposefully focus on one survivor, ignoring everyone else. That's the problem.
The difference is, completeing a gen doesn't make the game unfun for the killer. The game continues. Once a survivor is tunneled to death, the game is over and it wasn't very fun for him in most cases. I am not saying tunneling is a bad thing to do, I am saying this game would be better if there were more incentive for killers not to tunnel than to tunnel. Pretty much give killers the chances of getting kills without tunneling just like they do now with tunneling, and instead make it so that tunneling isn't quite as effective as it is now. Obviously this will never be totally fixable, but the devs could try and balance the game so not tunneling becomes more advantegous over tunneling than it is now.I get there are survivors that don't want the killer to have fun. Something the devs hopefully adress as well. But this is about all the survivors who just want to play the game to have fun and can't because the game supports strategies that give the survivors no chance of having fun. Most people shouldn't suffer just because there are some toxic people in the community.
1
https://youtu.be/x4-ElByHTTY
