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Three Skull Merchants Tonight
Would anyone like to guess how many of them held a 3-gen?
Would anyone else like to guess how long the games were?
I think I figured out why some people enjoy playing her that way. One of them was streaming and had a "Skull Merchant Rage DC counter" on display and when I asked them what it was for they said something along the lines of, "For the ragequitting Survivor mains who throw a tantrum whenever a Killer is winning".
Yeah, just venting, not meant to be taken super seriously. I still think she needs to be completely re-designed. I really should stop playing Survivor as well lmao
Comments
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Yes, this was discussed in many other threads I think. You do something to someone and that person in return punishes others in subsequent matches.
I'm curious, nonetheless, how long the matches lasted.
2 -
Lol yea they throw a tantrum 40 minutes into the game after the killer has refused to chase anyone or leave a 3 gen since the beginning of the trial, they just stand around a 3 gen and let all the others pop and then camp the ones left, inb4 "survivors 3 genning is their fault" yea really not anymore since the devs put like 4 gens always within close proximity of each other, you just pick the area with the most gens to camp and you've created a stalemate with certain killers right off rip
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3 minutes for the first one. 2 people DC'd as soon as they saw Drones on gens.
35 minutes on the second game. Everyone just started giving up eventually.
Around 50 minutes on the last one.
15 -
Maybe you really should take a break. Otherwise I'll take all your SM and give you my Pinheads, Legions and Whiskas.
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Last night my friend and I got SM on RPD. The match was so long I was falling asleep, due to this, I got hooked and out of the match. Afterwards I fell asleep waiting at my pc, when I woke up I saw my friend say the match was just over 50 minutes.
2 -
Yikes. How long will this still be a thing?
I am just happy she isn't super popular.
I can have fun even with the tunneling and camping, but SM with those games just breaks my energy to play the game.
They can get the free win, i just want to get out of their match the fast as possible, by any means necessary.
10 -
I do not understand how one can stay for longer than 20 minutes not to mention 50. I would start taking risks which would either work (in a good team) or would result in me being sacrificed (with team mates having fun extending the match for eternity).
I'm in Europe (Central, GMT+1). I barely see any SMs but Weskers (the tunneling / camping kind) are aplenty. I would gladly switch with you.
4 -
This. If people are hiding and are too scared to make gens, the killer will always win. You must play offensively to defeat a 3 gen. And at least two gens should be in progress at the same time.
I'm in Europe (Central, GMT+1). I barely see any SMs but Weskers (the tunneling / camping kind) are aplenty. I would gladly switch with you.
Same to me.
4 -
Because I'm trying to win, not throw the game.
Just so happens that SM 3-gens are nearly impossible to break in a 4-man, let alone Solo Q.
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You've got more patience than I do for a 50 min game. My limit is 20 min and even that's generous apparently since I'm yet to be the first to give up and go next.
1 -
Lol just give these people their "wins", they think they're good at the game by doing something a child can do. just killswitch this killer asap.
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Which is exactly why I do not understand why you are staying.
It is a known problem by the community - the very reason in a poll someone simply created a separate tier for SM calling her "broken" at her current state.
I'd rather lose a 50-min match and have 5 other that I may win (provided none pair me with SM again :D).
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Sadly they already tweaked her so they're probably just gonna call it a day since they're already working on the next couple of killers.
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Streamers like that are why both sides will never get along. It’s this endless cycle of toxicity that divides this community. It’s so sad honestly.
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Damn that's #########
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I'd love the Devs to get involved in this discussion, instead of overlooking it..
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Damn, I barely ever see SM in my lobbies, it's all Ghostfaces, Weskers and Nemesises (Nemeses?).
When I play SM, I go super aggressive rather than committing to a 3-gen early on, which is probably why I lose a lot of my SM games (except where Survivors DC as soon as they see me or they get downed at 5 gens because they didn't realise my drone speeds me up).
0 -
This game should have a twenty minute time limit.
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3-gens are annoying, but the new rift came out, and it seems all the actual challenges you need Skull Merchant.
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I stated this in another thread but as someone who plays the skull merchant and doesn't use her drones on generators. I'm tired of hearing the need for her to be reworked. Skull merchant does not need a rework.
GENERATOR PLACEMENT requires a rework. Gens just spawn way to close as is, you can get not just 3 genned but 4 genned. It can be absolutely stupid how badly the rng can screw a game from the start.
Honestly a change that should happen would be to make it so when 3 gens are repaired 2 break down again adding them back to the repair pool so there is 5 gens that can be worked on instead of only 3. Doing this would remove 3 gen entirely. Killers shouldn't have an easy patrol path.
1 -
Nah Dull Merchant needs a rework.
9 -
Nope, she needs a rework for her all power, either deleter that trash killer or rework it. until then, killswitch.
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No way, are you saying that the killer who is meant to control the zone controls the zone? no way
don't forget to call the police if you see legion using hit and run or ghostface using stealth
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Thats the thing - if you get tunneled and/or camped, you can just go to the next game. Against Skull Merchant, you will be stuck for a long time. You might get more BPs in such a game, but you can probably get even more in the next two games, which will be shorter than the one you are playing against a Skull Merchant.
I really cannot blame anyone who wants to get out against a Skull Merchant ASAP.
7 -
she isn't dull, however most of the people that use her don't know how to use her properly. When used right she is absolutely a blast to chase survivors with.
again she isn't the problem, 3 genning is. A lot of killers can do it, she just happens to be the best. To solve the problem you don't change every killer than can 3 gen. You change 3 genning. Work smarter not harder.
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Not a bad idea. Not sure on the 20 though perhaps 30? This is definitely something the devs need to consider immediately for game health/longevity.
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This. If you play her as a chase killer against competent players, you will lose almost every time barring some horrible misplays from the survivors. She is not good except for holding 3-gens
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I get that it's a subjective thing, different tastes and I respect that, I just don't understand what's fun about playing SM.
Having played her for the adept and the recent tome challenges, I've come to the conclusion that she's boring to play no matter if you're winning or losing.
I don't see what there is to master, your power does everything for you.
It protects generators for you, it alerts you what gens are being worked on, it alerts you when people are countering your power, it shuts down basically any loop in the game forcing the survivor to leave. It gives you some stealth (For some reason????) and It speeds you up when survivors mess with your power, making chasing as an m1 killer a bit easier
To top it all off she doesn't even have a fun power to use in chase - moving slightly faster is not a fun and engaging power. It's a lazy bandaid fix.
It feels to me like some people are acting like SM is a lot more complicated and deeper than she really is. A power having lots of things and being needlessly complicated doesn't mean it takes a lot of skill or mastery to use.
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its simple, a lot of m1 killer are so bad to the point that moving 5% faster, i.e 120% m/s is respectable power. The loops for m1 killer are so safe for experienced survivor loopers that there is zero point in playing most of m1 killer cast. All that m1 killer can do is pallet break simulator. Skull merchant deletes bad pallet design by just 3 gen stalling and breaking every pallet until its dead zone.
Just for example, what am I suppose to do as freddy when it comes to chasing survivors around the map. His snares slow him to 100% when placing a snare and he has merger 15% hinder for 3 seconds. Pointless anti-loop where pre-drop pallets and camping long pallets is free win.
What do survivor mains like Pulsar expect? Do they expect the killer to chase you on Garden of joy god window loops and press space-bar simulator for pallets? Its more boring to play pallet break simulator for killer then it is to 3 gen and get w's on skull merchant.
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No chase power? Her entire power is a chase power just because you haven't figured out how to use it in a chase yet doesn't mean it can't be used as one.
I use her drones at loops because of the ability to expose not only that with proper add-ons you get haste pair that with bamboozle and brutal strength she can just shut things down.
You can force people off of strong loops like this because they do not want to risk getting exposed. By me not placing the drones on gens and leaving them at loops where I know survivors will go I can force them into dead zones.
Again I don't use her drones on generators because she absolutely doesn't need it. Yes a lot of SM players do, but they're not real SM players they're trolls who will just move onto the next best thing to ruin your day.
to clarify, I am not a fan of 3 genning. I do not think it should exist at all. I think it is easy to fix by having 2 completed gens break down again so even though you only have 1 gen left they're is 4 or 5 gens to work with. This would effectively kill 3 genning. Now SM, Knight, infinite Myers etc can't 3 gen you.
and once again the biggest elephant that needs to be addressed is the distance between gens, you can have 4 gens on some maps all clustered together this needs to be changed. Gens shouldn't be within 10m of each other. There also shouldn't be 3 gens in a 25m radius.
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No I know how to use it in chase, it's extremely simple. It doesn't take a degree in Skull Merchantry to figure that out
You put a drone on a tile and the survivor either leaves and takes a normal hit or stays and gets screwed.
This playstyle is rewarded even more if you exclusively run purple addons, but none of that changes the fact that there's no actual skill to the power. The skill comes from basic M1 killer fundementals, knowing how to play tiles, when you can and can't get a hit and so on.
Again, you might not use the power to protect gens and that's cool but her power is literally designed to be used that way. The tome challenges are proof that this is the intended way to play her by the devs.
As for "not real SM players" Not only is that implying that this "chase SM" is the only valid way to play her (it's not) but you're also implying that the people doing it are trolls? I would assume it's because it's the path of least resistance. It takes no skill and it's just easy. Why would anyone play this "chase SM" playstyle when you can just put drones on gens and play normal m1 killer and get basically the same results for less effort?
Changing gen spawns isn't gonna change the fact by design SM has an objective defense oriented power. Knight has the same thing, his guards are made to patrol gens and can even kick them/destroy pallets.
3 -
Nearly everyone hates facing her because the matches are boring. Sounds pretty dull to me.
Even on the rare occasion she isn't played in the 3 gen strategy nothing about her chase is interesting. She throws down a drone forcing you to leave the loop. Or she runs the double purple addons to slow you and speed her after leaving a drones radius.
Ultimately you may enjoy playing as her but nobody wants to face her.
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Right so, change her power and then everyone that uses skull merchant for her 3 genning ability will go back to the knight and we will be right back here. My answer will still be the same thing and everyone will go " NO JUST NERF THE KILLER REWORK". Everyone complains about "bandaid fixes" Well nerfing killers instead of fixing the underlying issue is just that a bandaid fix.
Atleast I put forth way to prevent her and every other current and future killer from having this same problem.
So what your saying is, how dare she be able to do anything. Shes not allowed to anti-loop, shes not allowed to protect gens. What is she allowed to do? get pallet stunned repeatedly? Get looped into infinity and beyond?
2 -
3 genning isn't the only problem people have with SM, it's just the most widely complained about one for sure.
I know it sucks to hear about, but it's nobodies fault but BHVRs for releasing two "objective defense" centered killers in a row, during the time when generator kicking perks were the strongest they likely ever will be.
On a completely personal preference note, I want a full rework because I think SM is one of the worst and most disappointing killer designs in the game and I think a brand new power would be way better than what we have now imho.
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I could say that about killers I dislike too. Legion, Plague, Oni, doctor etc. But I don't despite how boring they're to me and disappointing they're I don't demand reworks because a killer wasn't designed to my particular tastes.
I like her, I like her power. I think for the most part she is fine. A lot of her issues can be fixed by fixing gen placement and removing the ability to 3 gen.
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I don't really think the problem is about tastes, it's that none of these killers have the ability to routinely stretch games to the 30 minute mark. Can the Skull Merchant be successful without 3-genning? Yes. But will the playerbase do that? Hell no. If people can win with little effort, they will 100% do that, even if it means the game will take forever and be taken hostage by the killer. Not to mention that because of the us vs them mentality with this game, some people will revel in their ability to waste 30 minutes of the survivors' time, thinking they are doing the world a great service (pfffff).
The current problem with the SM 3-gen strategy is it has no worthwhile counter if the killer will not commit to a chase. With 4 drones in hand, you'll always have spare drones to replace a hacked drone. If the survivors have a claw, they likely will not be able to work on a gen since they will easily be found and brought down. It's a poor interaction between the survivors and the killer power, especially compared to say Plague's, which have a much more interesting dynamic. You full heal, but on the flip side you give the killer a means to get an incredibly deadly attack for a few seconds.
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Ive already said they need to fix 3 genning. Make it so gens are further apart and when 3 gens are completed 1-2 breakdown and can be repaired again. Doing this when you're at 1 gen left instead of 3 gens being able to be repaired there are now 4-5 gens available and now 3 gen strats are completely annihilated for all killers. Not just SM but the Knight aswell.
but everyone just ignores that is the real problem here. Like you have done in your post. I absolutely want 3 gens gone. Because yes i hate facing skull merchants because of the default 3 gen mode.
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Those killers all could routinely stretch games to the 30 minute mark by obsessively holding a 3-gen, yes. Why would Skull Merchant be able to do that, and not those killers?
You don't even need a power at all to hold 3-gens, really, though not having a power at all is technically weaker than SM so I'll grant that. Legion can patrol the generators faster and keep people injured, Doctor has comparable information to SM and interacts with gens directly, Plague can infect both generators and survivors + has a ranged attack to pressure with too... Oni, maybe not, since he's more of a burst-threat, but the other three absolutely can.
I still don't know why Skull Merchant is seen as the issue over 3-genning in general. Is it just that people only see proper 3-gen strats from her, or something?
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I had one that held a 3 gen on Suffocation Pit but then also held us hostage. She downed Leon and I was the 4th survivor on the other side of the map working on a gen. So of course I now know I'm looking for hatch. Except she didn't kill leon. She slugged him for a while but kept going back and picking him up and letting him wiggle off till she found me but she never did find me. Occasionally she would down leon presumably to see if I would come pick him up but I'm not that dumb. She just kept looking for me forever. Anytime she would let leon wiggle off she would walk to the other side of the map to look for me but if I was next to leon I would help leon with the gen. We got 2 more gens done before she FINALLY found me. Every time she would come back I would simply walk away and she would down leon again. Not only is skull merchant being able to force a 3 gen OR drone both gates a problem but killers holding hostage because the world will apparently end if they don't get a 4k is a problem too. I 100% believe we would have spent an hour in that match if she didn't eventually get lucky and see me.
in the post game I told her she was holding hostage and she said I could have done gens. She didn't realize that I was right next to leon doing gens with him. Something needs to happen for survivors if killers refuse to end the game because they don't get their precious 4k.
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And yet, I've not been held in 30 minute matches by any other Killer.
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She's not.
Even if you don't use the 3-gen or Totem Defender strat, you're just gonna be an anti-loop Killer. Place Drone at loop, Survivors must leave loop and eat an M1, hold W, repeat.
You could just play Knight. That's a significant portion of his gameplay.
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That's all I see her do though. Out of all the SM's I've gone against I have escaped only one. The rest of them 3 genned or held hostage until they got their precious 4k. If X amount of survivors are dead and no gen has progressed/hooks been hooked for X amount of time the game should just end.
1 -
I failed to address 3-gen mainly because I feel it's a flaw that's inherent to the game concept and I'm not certain myself as to how to fix it. I toyed with the idea of having an extra generator but then I feel that would make the role of killer even harder since you'd have more to patrol. Ideally, a solution to 3-genning should ideally be organic and not create hassles for either the survivor or killer. You could change some maps to help in that regard by tweaking the generator spawning a bit but I feel it won't always be possible without making some maps bigger.
Okay, saying that only the SM can 3-gen was incorrect. The problem is that people quickly found that holding a 3-gen was the easiest way to win with the way the Skull Merchant works. Powers in the game usually are usually designed in a way that you'll want to be on the warpath and seek and destroy the survivors. Even more passive killers like Hag or Trapper typically require you to move out of your way away from the gens in order to prepare the battlefield to catch survivors off guard. But SM has no incentive to go out and prepare traps, you could just find the 3-gen setup the map has and just hold it down until survivors die of boredom. Why try to do any better if this bare minimum effort is enough to win?
Either the game finds a way to break out 3 gen setups altogether or her kit must be retooled so that doing the bare minimum will not get you a win.
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I understand people that dc-ing/kill themselves on a first hook when they see Snore Merchant. I would do the same. I'm amazed some players can stand 30+ minute DBD games against SM.
I've tried using her few times. She sucks, her power and perks are boring and she looks like a bad cosplayer.
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That's kind of the problem, though. For all killers, barring maybe a few exceptions, finding a 3-gen and defending it is the surest way to victory, and unlike camping and tunnelling there's not much survivors can really do against it. Skull Merchant is in no way unique in this regard, it's just that something about her kit made certain players want to 3-gen for whatever reason. Maybe to annoy the opposition or something?
It's not even that she's weak, Sadako is weak and she doesn't have a reputation for holding 3-gens for 40 minutes. It's not that there's no other way to use her power because there absolutely is. I genuinely cannot grasp why SM has become the poster child for this issue...
Regardless, I would personally say that if SM is complained about this much, and we understand that she's really no different from almost any other killer in this regard, it should stand to reason that the game does need to move away from 3-gens as a viable option. There's no way to avoid it otherwise- make SM somehow incapable of doing it and those who want to will just move to the next best thing, since she's not actually that much better at it than the alternatives. Again, unless there's something I'm missing, I'm always open to the idea that there may be.
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She IS different.
The time it takes to remove a Drone is critical. It let's her use perks like CoB, Overcharge and other similar perks.
If you don't disable the Drone, she's fast, you're Exposed and she knows where you are. She can also have addons to make doing gens harder.
If you disable the Drone, she's fast and she knows where you are. There's nothing stopping her from just putting up another Drone and kicking the gen again.
There's CLEARLY something wrong with her since she's the only Killer that holds games hostage via 3-gen. Sure, other Killers CAN hold a 3-gen. Nobody does it like Dull Merchant, nobody can time out games like she can.
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CoB/Overcharge were nerfed, though? I'll admit I haven't tried using them for 3-gen stuff since I find that playstyle immensely boring, but they shouldn't allow killers to stall generators forever like they used to and there really isn't anything that could take their place to be "similar". Plus, if you disable the drone, there is something stopping her from dropping another one- if everyone's alive and everyone disables a drone, she doesn't have any more to drop. If not everyone's alive you'd lose a 3-gen scenario against any killer (and she probably wasn't gunning for it straight from the start), and if only you disable a drone she's really not that fast.
The part I'm really curious about is how you know she's the only killer that holds games hostage with 3-gens, though. Do other killers actually try? There's killers who would categorically be better at it than she is, by virtue of being the top killers in the game, so that can't possibly be true.
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I think Skull Merchant just highlights a pre-existing problem with the game, which is that you can get locked in a stalemate over the last gen where, if the killer is able to defend the gens, either the killer or the survivors would have to make a deliberate mistake in order to end the match.
If you're playing killer, it doesn't feel great to deliberately take a bad chase and let everyone escape; as survivor it doesn't feel great to deliberately go on death hook (pretty much ever, because of the way it's framed in the game).
Skull Merchant has very strong gen defense, so she's much more likely to have her matches end this way, but the real problem is that the game stalls out this way in the first place.
1 -
I think her ability to lock down 3 gens is a bit undersold, to be honest. She can render gens unrepairable in multi-floor buildings because of Exposed+Undetectable. That effectively turns a 3 gen into a 2 gen unless the survivors are just dumb/don't know any better or have tight comms+Balanced Landing. And people tend to forget about the delay each drone causes on top of taking players with claw traps out of gen repairs. There's a whole lot of steps survivors have to take just to start a gen against her.
Those pre-requisites aren't there for other killers who can play around a 3 gen. You can take the infection and W early against Plague, but she has no natural stall like SM. Hag can be turned into a meme if everyone W's up the map walls away from the 3 gen, and again, no natural delay. Oni is on a timer, and you can jump in a locker to force him out of his power if you get caught out and want to prevent a snowball.
SM is much better at locking down gens because she has natural delay and a combination of stealth+lethality to make certain gens too risky.
3 -
You can't loop her because of getting exposed. You can't just hold w because of her addons. If she decides to 3 gen you can't really break it. So you basically have no effective options.
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