Base BT needs to deactivate once endgame starts
If DS deactivates, then why in the world does bt stay active? It's literally a free escape for survivors.
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NAH
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It's not a free escape lol
If you take it away, EGC becomes even more Killer-sided.
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As much as I agree, given that I think the EGC should focus on creating tension, ultimately the base BT making unhooks safer at the end prevents Killers from padding their Killrate and getting MMR boosted to the point where they continually burn out.
Though it absolutely does feel like a free escape during the EGC given you can’t really chase other survivors due to on-hit speed making it safe for them to proxy hook with the Exit Gate being a get out of jail free card.
Still wish they’d let the Killer close Open Exit Gates.
Post edited by AssortedSorting on2 -
no, it doesnt
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Endgame is supposed to be killer sided, and should be. Survivors don't deserve a free escape
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neither do killers deserve a free kill
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You already got ds and otr deactivating, if that's not enough for u to get a free 1k then u are beyond not deserving it
Absolutely not, you lost all the gens, take the L
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At what point is a "free escape" really just an escape? Getting all the gens done isn't free, nor is coordinating a hook rescue w/o trading....
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Old BT back when prior to basekit BT was a free escape during EGC, but this is no longer the case. From a time standpoint you really ought to be able to hit them again generally speaking if needed or you could hook the survivor far enough that the basekit BT fades as well.
Now I do think there are issued with it. I like the intention of basekot BT being to discourage tunneling, but I do not like how it's often used as a free protection hit for a friend who unhooks them. I do think the unhooked person should lose Collison during that time
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Once again, it is not a free escape.
EGC is not supposed to be Killer-sided, it's supposed to end the match.
Killers don't deserve a free Kill, which is EXACTLY what no basekit BT would give them.
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Mercy me
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DS is a perk, and basekit BT is a basekit mechanic. Also the devs have said before that endgame doesn't favour anyone, it's just a means to an end. It's supposed to be neutral, certainly not killer sided.
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But you know, there was a time before basekit BT where the survivors still escaped. They woul have to use NORMAL BT then.
So I'm thinking, how about disabling base BT in endgame, but not BT perk? So if you really want that extra bit of protection in end game, you have to bring good'ol BT perk in your loadout.
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No, 4 outs shouldn't be impossible without BT
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So the perk is now back to being required?
Not a good solution.
The EGC is fine as is. If anything, it shouldn't be so Killer-sided, but I'm not in much of a mood to change it
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Basekit BT is what it make survivors think they have a chance to go for unhook. Which sometime 1K may lead to 2-3K. Without basekit BT, survivors will just leave.
I use 4 End game perks as killer, I always use the hooked survivor as a bait and even leave hook to get Rancor survivor and activate Blood warden. I would be disappointed when their 3 teammates just leave the match.
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No it isn't. Egc was implemented to ensure the game ended. Not to give free kills.
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The difference is, that if basekit BT was disabled, there would be precisely nothing survivors can do to rescue person from hook. All I (as a killer) would need to do is facecamp, let hooked survivor get an unhook and after he is unhooked but before he can move - just smack him. Then immediately pick him up and hook him (they can't even flashlight save, because I will vacuum-hook before flashlight gets applied - the only THEORETICAL save would be breakdown/sabotage (but sabotage poses huge risk) into flashlight save/sabo-play - both borderline impossible and still dependant on perks/items).
So overall removing basekit BT is 99,9999% free kill just because someone was on a hook during endgame. Right now it's much more fair - if you manage to hook someone a little bit away from gate, or if you manage to get 2+ people out of game (leave or killed), or if you have STBFL stacks, or if you grab someone, or if 1hit someone, or if survivors screw up - you get an extra kill. That's much healthier than just getting free kill baring some theoretical situation (basically only breakdown or BT would give you some CHANCE to escape - they would not even guarantee it).
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Why should it be impossible without BT? We had a time without base BT, and situations where you would be unhooked without the unhooker having BT. 4 man outs would still happen, just because body blocks exist. I would assume body blocking is way more important than any BT timer for getting 4 man out. With lesser ppl alive, BT timer is more important, sure. But with less body blocking, it's also easier to wait out the timer as a killer.
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it is impossible to bodyblock if killer facecamps (which is something he should do in endgame). It was fine before, because survivors knew they had to bring the perk every time (or be grieved in soloQ by farming teammate that didn't bring it). Right now survivors have 4 perk slots instead of 3. So it would be unfair in current situation
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Why required? You can totally get out in EGC without it, just due to body blocking.
According to Nightlight, BT dropped from 36% before perk overhauls to 3.6% now. Just bc. of base BT effect. Disabling only base BT in end game but not the perk, would give some incentive to run it more again. It would still be far away from the former 36%. And since BT perk doubles the duration of endurance, an increase in BT pick rates might actually have a small effect against tunneling, simply because waiting out the base BT timer would fail more often.
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No it's not impossible to bodyblock, I have way enough experience in that matter! If the gate is nearby, there is literally nothing you can do when going against three unhookers. The survs will squeeze through to the hook, one will go for the unhook, the others blocking you from grabing / hitting the unhooker. When you hit someone, another one will unhook. All run to the gate and butt dance. Thats why I usually hit the first surv approaching and chase them to down if I can afford it (gate being far away), instead of trying to protect a hooked surv at end game. That fails more often than not.
And before you retaliate "skill issue", no sir, when 3 unhookers play it right, it's very difficult to down any of them, esp when the gate is near. You only chance in this situation is playing the right killer (Bubba, Huntress, 99% Myers) or having certain perks (STBFL, Exposed effects). If you have got none of them, you can only hope for the survs to screw up.
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What will you do as survivor if I stand in front of survivor and ignore EVERYTHING IN THE WORLD and just wait for hooked survivor to be unhooked - and once he is on the ground but before he can move - I just press M1? You can't push me away as killer. You can't walk into hook to take said hit instead. Killer just always redown said survivor, or somebody had BT/breakdown.
I will play custom game with you and I am certain I will get BT hit 10/10 times and there's nothing you can do about it. The only possible chance is for killer to screw up and hit survivor too soon (which means no hit is counted).
Now compare this to current state, where killer can go for person he hits on hook, killer can grab, killer can bodyblock, killer can hook far away from gates, killer can have STBFL, killer could not screw up before endgame and removed 2 players in any way, killer can have some kind of 1hit ability or killer can have ability that allows him quick succeeding hits (trickster, bubba with addons, etc).
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Everything you describe only matters when there's only one surv. attempting the unhook. WIth multiple rescuers, they can and will make sure you won't hit the unhooked! You cannot stop an unhook with two or three ppl around you. And if you really wait for the unhook to happen without hitting any of the three, good luck trying to hit the unhooked, with three ppl ready for body blocking.
Since you asked, what I would do in that situation you described: LEAVE THE ONE HANGING! Try to find others to help, or if there are't any left, just leave. Unhooking someone else ALONE when the killer is standing besides you should never be a free card for both of you to get out.
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You really can't.
You just end up trading.
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We both know people will never use BT now that it's basekit. They've already opened that door and they can't close it. No one would devote a slot to it. People gave the same advice when the initial incarnation of BT was released. The five seconds and lack of a speed boost were so completely useless that killers just waited it out and hard tunneled everyone off to the hook. People said "just use the perk" and no one did. It was so bad that they had to buff basekit BT. It would be exactly the same with this.
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Again. I don't care if there's just 1 unhooker or 100. I ignore them. I want them to unhook. Because as they unhook, they can't push me away from survivor that I am touching. And as you want to remove basekit BT, survivor that is touching me (because I facecamp him) can't move, but can take a hit. There's no bodyblocking, because that would indicate that a, I am not facecamping and there's a place where other survivor can move between me and hooked person b, hooked person or killer don't have collision (they clearly do) c, there's some kind of basekit mechanism that protects against it (this one is true - it's called basekit BT and you are just advocating for it's removal).
This means it's not even a trade. It's straight up hook once and wait until hook timer kills the person (with possible optional rehooking that has no counterplay but basekit BT or maybe breakdown).
How do you think you can bodyblock if you can't move between me and hooked person? Just how? I still don't get this. And I said it before. We can go to custom games and I will show you that 10/10 I will get that BT hit when literally facecamping.
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Was thinking more that if the Killer closes an Exit Gate, The Hatch opens permanently. Gate Close animation would be a bit lengthy (and lock the Killer into it) to make babysitting a switch as Killer (if both Killer/Survivor reach it the same time) give Survivors a window to move around the Killer, if they commit to closing the Gate instead of addressing the nearby Survivors. Then the remaining Survivors would have Hatch to find, no stationary unlock needed, but would need to spend time finding it while being able to move.
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Yeah we had a time without base bt and it was really stupid, you shouldn't be forced to run it. Also no 4 man outs would not still happen without BT
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That was also a time where DS existed and also old DH. I think there are more matches where killer gets kill even with Basekit BT and even increases potential to kill other altruistic survivors than when everyone gets out when someone is hooked at EG.
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If necessary, I hope it's 5 s
Nobody likes to let you down once you've been rescued
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Nah. Base BT is counterable by hooking farther away (and if you can’t, you don’t just deserve a free kill).
DS is disabled because 60 seconds is long enough for it to not have counterplay in endgame.
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use rancor and noed.
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You can unhook without bt. If you don't know how that's a skill issue
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I'm in agreement with everyone else here. Turning BT back into a necessary perk just because a basekit mechanic is disabled during EGC is just stupid imo.
If you have to go out of your way to make a perk feel needed, when it wasn't before, then it's poor perk design. Sure the change saw BT drop but we shouldn't hinder or punish progress just so one perk can see more usage. The BT glory days are over. Get used to it.
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Just tell me how. I explained what I will do (facecamp survivor touching him all the time + fully ignoring everything but hooked survivor = i will let anyone unhook for free. But right after unhook, i will just click M1 without ever touching keyboard or moving mouse).
What kind of "skill" can make killer miss in this situation? Because you are advocating for removing the only protection against this tactics...
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Sit right on top of the hook, surv gets unhooked, immediately smack them, absolutely zero things they can do. What's really a skill issue is thinking you deserve a pity kill after losing all the gens
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I mean you could say that it's a skill issue thinking you're entitled to a second health-state upon immediately being unhooked because of poor decision making of other Survivors.
Just pull the Killer away from Hook like you're able to prevent survivors from splitting input on gens.
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Oh. To OP:
One is a Perk, the other is basegame.
making DS the ultimate anti-tunneling
Perkchoice isn't good design.0 -
Where is there any kind of decision from other survivors? We are talking endgame. Killer should secure his last kill and survivors should either escape or try to rescue hooked person.
Disabling basekit BT in endgame would make perk BT again requirement, or my facecamping example would be 100% unbeatable no matter what other survivors do - meaning totally free kill for killer
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"Just pull the killer away from hook" lol good luck with that
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Your acting like survivors don't genrush 50% of the time.
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Get two survivors at hook, one unhooks, other body blocks. If it's only one survivor, then simply spam M1 until the killer messes up a swing, and force a protection hit
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What does that have to do with unhooking w/o bt?
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If BT goes I want unhook time to be sped up to compensate for 6.1.0's hit CD reduction/dash reduction. This is a long overdue change AND for hook state timers to be lengthened to match the gen time increases.
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I actually agree.
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Problem is, the other one can't do that, because both hooked survivor and killer have bodies that can't be walked thru. Try it yourself. You just can't move into the hook. But killer can hit freshly unhooked survivor.
Again - as killer i don't care if there is 1 survivor or 100 survivors doing the unhooking. I don't care. I want them to unhook for free. I am not moving an inch. I am just waiting for unhook to immediatelly smack that survivor with literally 0 counterplay (baring BT or to small degree breakdown).
And no other survivor can bodyblock, because unhooked survivor can't decide to spawn anywhere else then immediately in front of (unmoving) killer + no other survivor can by any means push out the killer or walk thru survivors that is still on hook or that is being unhooked.
Also you can't fake unhook timing, as there is very specific animation during unhooking. I as a killer am not looking at unhooking survivor. I am watching animation of hooked survivor that is being unhooked.
And if you don't believe me, try it yourself.
If basekit BT goes, it's devs deciding to almost guarantee one free-ish kill to killer (or making BT perk mandatory thing again) - by having simple requirement of killer having anyone on hook during endgame. I hope devs are above giving 100% freebies, because in this regards DS at endgame gave better counterplay than this new situation - survivor could still miss that skillcheck (so yes - even if that barely happened, the said truth is, that it's still less guaranteed escape then actually guaranteed kill if basekit BT gets disabled for endgame)
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Ah a fellow rancor enjoyer I see!
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