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There was absolutely NOTHING mentioned for killer gameplay or accessibility improvements!
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In this particular debate, that wasn't the contention. The contention was that they clearly don't care about Killers because they didn't mention any Killer-sided changes.
My point was that they specifically pointed out two maps that were Survivor-sided and said they were changing them to be more fair.
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Again, map improvements don't count as a killer-only gameplay improvement, because the map improvements could also make some maps more survivor-sided.
In order for map balancing to be a killer-only gameplay improvement, DBD would need to vow to never use it to make maps more survivor sided. Otherwise, it's a change that will eventually benefit both sides, depending on the reworked maps.
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Just stop playing or minimize time spent on Killer. I’m sure there are more than enough Killer players out there to accomodate
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To be fair, we don't actually know if this will be a good change yet, especially given their latest reworks. They somehow made Mother's Dwelling and Gas Heaven more unbalanced so I wouldn't put it past them to make Cowshed worse...
Not saying I agree with the OP, because every change they listed is an amazing change, but I don't have much faith in these map reworks...
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So you think Cowshed will be worse?
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Also BHVR said this, so the map reworks will also make some maps more survivor-sided, so the map rebalancing is not a killer-only gameplay improvement.
"What map is played on can have a substantial difference in the outcome of the game, and most maps are very polarizing as either killer sided or survivor sided, with very few if any commonly seen as balanced towards both sides equally, and the team would like to change that."
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Abattoir is one of the fairest maps in the game.
Honestly think that is why they are changing Rancid. Since it's not a miserable map to play on they need to change it. It would make sense with the changes they've been making to maps for the last few years.
Midwich-miserable
RPD-miserable
GoP-super miserable
Borgo- super miserable
Gas- was super miserable but now just miserable
Blood lodge- miserable since corner pallets create large dead zones
Haddonfield-miserable
Mother's-miserable
Temple-miserable
Rancid is a map that needs attention since it isn't a miserable experience for either side, and that's clearly not ok.
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It doesn't matter what cowshed turns into. BHVR said they want to balance maps for both sides, so this isn't a killer-only gameplay improvement.
Besides, the map rebalances might end up being an overall nerf for killers, depending on how the full set of rebalances go.
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Not saying I agree with who you're responding to, but in the same breath they patted themselves on the back for the RPD rework, which solved pretty much none of the major issues the old map had.
The recent Mother's Dwelling rework likewise made an already survivor-sided and immense map even more survivor-sided by adding a ridiculous amount of LOS blockers everywhere.
So, while I agree with the spirit of what you're saying -- that BHVR promised to update maps that are currently very survivor-sided -- their history with map reworks makes me honestly wish they'd just leave the maps alone, because I am near certain they will find a way to make them even worse and then give themselves more kudos on the next live stream.
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Hey Tony, if you have to create a second account after getting banned from the forums, at least don't make it obvious with your new username + the stuff you post
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This isn't a killer vs survivor contest so there is NO scoreboard. Get over yourself.
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Actually, it is good that the Killer BP incentive is at 100%. Fewer Killers playing will mean more wait times for Survivors which leads back to devs taking action to boost the Killer population again.
6.7.0 showed me that BHVR will only take drastic action if they run the risk of losing their main playerbase AKA Survivors. It always felt to me like devs dangled a huge carrot in front of players in that patch to get them to play Killer more, then chip that carrot off bit by bit until the game balance goes back to what it once was pre 6.1.0.
The Survivor UI was already a hint of this when people started reposting the narrative of “Bring solo queue closer to swf then buff Killers to compensate” which makes no sense if swf specifically can’t be nerfed.
If anti camping does go through, expect to see more slugging and tunneling. When more people start complaining about slugs, devs will unveil the Finisher mori and Unbreakable base kit as the solution.
For the sake of the game, I hope I am wrong about this.
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-"Coconut almost never uses gen perks, at least when i watched him"
All these comments are so critical - sounds like you could be doing better.
Coco had a game within the last year where survivors finished the gens in 2:43. Despite all odds he won because he is a ridiculous Huntress. The problem overall is physically should not be possible to finish the gens that fast.
Most people who are survivor mains do not like True because he has been advocating for game balance for a long time. Game balance when the killer is weak means buffs for killer. Survivor mains do not like that. He has over 9000 hours of playtime and overall he plays far more difficult players than Otz does.
Hens only plays "cheese". You'll see him play Billy, Nurse, Huntress, and Oni but I've literally seen him play Nemesis once. And I've never seen him play a super weak killer. I think he said something like he doesn't have fun playing them - yea nobody does because it's not fun to get stomped.
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Abattoir isn't a fair map - It's close due to its size but it has some RNG that swings it to favor survivors.
Wreckers yard is the only fair map in DBD right now.
It's the symptom of a very big problem. Remember that 6.1 change that was supposed to make people want to play killer? I suspect the problem is worse now that Gen Regression got deleted.
Before 6.1 it was a regular thing to have about 100 survivor for every killer in Queue. We know this because people were pinging data from the DBD servers. It was common for there to be ~4500 survivors with 45 killers.
For almost the entire 6 year history of this game it has been an "unfun" experience to play killer. There have been "exception" times when you play the very best killers. People will say things like : well what about 2016? Billy was as broken as Blight is now when he could flick his chainsaw sprint and change the direction of the saw attack mid sprint (that is what people mean when they say flick - this "tech" was part of the original game). That was also a time when he had the "instant saw" addons.
The real question is : what happens if they nerf Nurse and Blight to the point that even those two killers cannot contest top end SWF groups?
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Yea I would agree with that. There are some maps that can be fair but RNG makes them unfair. Wreckers really is the only one that fair and doesn't have issues with RNG.
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Could I do better in their situations? No for otz and coco. Coco is a cracked Huntress and Otz is is just generally very good at the game.
Sooooo, despite how "OP" Survivors are even in this EXTREME example, the killer still won. Intriguing.
I dislike Tru3 because everything I hear from him is whining and encouraging a toxic mindset. He refuses to admit his own mistakes, he plays the game like it's still 2019, he's just not that good anymore, compared to other people. No shade to him, it's totally fine if he wants to play that way, but he has a really toxic mentality, imo.
Billy isn't exactly what I'd call a strong Killer. I've definitely seen him play Wesker and Pinhead recently. We were talking about skilled players, so I'm reiterating that Hens is up there.
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-"I dislike Tru3 because everything I hear from him is whining and encouraging a toxic mindset"
He was the front runner for saying the game should be about chases not kills. You want a less crappy meta? You have Patrick and Otz to thank for that.
-"he's just not that good anymore,"
Cant say that I agree. True has always been one to pull out paint and teach game elements while he's playing. When on survivor he demonstrates high levels of skill (much better than otz). As killer Otz plays whatever his heart desires and True gets paid to play with usually "crap" builds and does pretty well with the garbage he is usually handed.
Overall the biggest differences between the two is that Otz does have more of a light hearted attitude but he does overall play against less skilled survivors.
-"Billy isn't exactly what I'd call a strong Killer."
If you get a map that isn't too problematic with pallets and you play near perfectly he's fine. A single chainsaw sprint miss can mean losing two kills.
The last time I saw Hens get floored with Billy he shook it off as: well it is only Billy and not Blight (or something very close to that).
-"it's totally fine if he wants to play that way, but he has a really toxic mentality, imo."
How would you say he has a toxic mentality?
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If you specifically mean at night time, that would be because people are getting home from work and jumping on to swf with friends. There are more survivors on at night than during the day. I mostly get killer incentive after 9pm, and survivor incentive during the day.
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Given their recent "reworks" I have little confidence in them making the changes any less survivor-sided.
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OP simply stated that Killer received no QoL improvements once again, which is true, and people are bashing him for "complaining" about the survivor QoL changes? LOL he never complained, just stated obvious facts. Yeah an FOV setting for killer has been long overdue and requested but was never acknowledged by BHVR. If survivors got motion sickness playing the game, that setting would be implemented in a heart beat.
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About the topic, fast vault/explosion/unhook alarm sounds could become less annoying but nothing has been done.
Killer chase sounds distract many sound ques (breath, grunts of pain, footsteps).
Don't forget Plague's Corrupt Purge includes one of the most distracting sounds.
Killer's FOV feels narrow and causes dizziness that Shadowborn is a must-have perk for some killer players.
Footsteps on stairs are so faint to see and there are no options to adjust colors except color blind modes.
Surely these could get patches but how long do I need to wait?
Anyway about upcoming map reworks,
was I the only to expect Garden of Joy and Shattered Square map rework first instead of Cowshed and Abattoir?
I don't think devs got a single grip on map balance for that.
Just wait and see they cut corns on all Coldwinds and add more pallets there.
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This isn't an argument, everyone knows it's region based.
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Literally all I want is a better FOV.
I'm happy there is ANYTHING being added that makes the game play better, and people need to stop complaining because "My side received no compensation".
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The best metric for this is queue times, not incentive.
I haven't seen a large number of posts complaining about long queue times in quite a while now.
But rest assured, if the 80/20 balance actually gets out of whack there will be floods of queue times complaint posts on here, Reddit, Twitter, etc. That's when you know it's a problem, and not just a regional/MMR/time of day thing.
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On my end, daytime is typically 100% survivor incentive. Does that mean there's a survivor shortage?
Also here's a couple photos I took the other day. One is my PS5, the other my Switch. I guess there's simultaneously a killer and survivor shortage?
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He/She isn't complaining about changes, he/she is complaing about the fact that killer don't get ANYTHING base kit (or better, anything useful). I don't know if he/she made other comments complaining about the changes, but he/she is right about the fact that killere don't get ANYTHING base kit when survs are getting lots of helps (sometimes that it's not even needed because in my opinion DC bots aren't needed, same as Visual HUD, but that's my opinion. Instead of visual HUD I would've preferred a "pre-written message" system, it would help more survs than the visual HUD and would benefit only soloq, because visual HUD was made for soloq not for SWF)
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See patch 6.1.0 😉
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For the same reason survivor is +100 BP every day/morning and on weekends.
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The patch that made killer easier to play against solos and harder to play vs SWF?
Also don't forget the patch right after that took away almost everything the killer got from the 6.1 patch. What survivor perks got a 75% nerf to compesnate killers getting a 75% nerf to CoB?
What was the net gain for killer? You have zero base kit perks.
Survivor has Base kit BT and will soon have basekit deliverance vs campers.
All survivors got massive info updates to make them play more like SWF groups by being able to see gen/heal progress.
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What survivor perks got a nerf to compensate killers getting a nerf to Call of Brine? Circle of Healing.
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The survivor bot is very needed. Most days you can't go a few games without DC's. Which pretty much make the game unplayable in solo q. No one wanna play a 3 vs 1
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Well, consider that tunneling is still in the game because devs don't reward killers in any ways for choosing not to tunnel, so you know the 3 vs 1 is still a thing.
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Incentives are not based upon queue times. I've had 10 second killer queues, non stop all the time since the Survivor HUD was released, and I still sometimes see +100% survivor BPs. Meanwhile, my survivor queues are always much slower, and can easily take over a minute, and that also started when the Survivor HUD released.
If the incentives were working correctly, they would be giving each player incentives to play whichever of their queues (killer or survivor) is shorter, because each player's shorter queue needs more help.
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Wow he had 1 good take congratulations. You know what other takes he has had? No endurance at the endgame at all, every hooks is a scourge hook (when pain res was 15 percent), ds is still good, tunneling gens🤡, blight is just an ok killer, spirit was gutted, eruption is fine, killer is impossible, solo que is easy, swf needs a nerf, old spirit was fine and more. He just whines and complains all the time when things dont go his way, hell he does that even when he wins there always something to complain about.
Also his idea of balancing the game for top 1 percent would kill the game.
Post edited by Rizzo on7 -
Nice name😎
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Tunnel gens? Tunneling means "Doing your objective as fast as you can". Killer tunnel survivors, because killing is the objective of the killer, and survs tunnel generators, because repairing is their objective. Do you prefer the term "genrush"? Genrush = Tunneling generators. It's funny to see that people forget that even survivors tunnel their objective.
Tru3 never said (I think, correct me if I'm wrong) that all hooks should be a scourge hook, he said "For every scourge hook you use, it should be fair to have more than 4 scourge hooks", and I agree with him.
Blight is fine, maybe some add on should be touched, but remember that also survivor things should be touched, not only killers' things. Remember that toolboxes are still OP, bnp is still OP, and Prove breake the game. Blight NOW is fine since the game is unbalanced because gens are too fast. In a game where generators aren't this fast, ok Blight is OP, but he only needs add on reworks.
Spirit was nerfed, but she's still very strong.
Eruption is fine if you remove incapacitated and replace it with "Survs cant do gens for X seconds".
DS is still good, but it's an occasional perk.
Killer is impossible, well he isn't wrong, try play killer against top SWF and let us know how you manage to win without tunneling.
I think these are all his takes that can be clarified, as often what you hear is taken out of context. it's true, everyone exaggerates, but let's face the truth: is he wrong about the killer being currently indecent? No, absolutely not, when the generators don't kick off in 30 seconds then that's the day we can tell him "Look, you're talking a bunch of crap", but as long as the game is like this well, it's not just bullshit that's it
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Killer isn’t always 100% during weekends. In my area, that vacillates. It’s not always 100% during evenings either. Sometimes it’s 50%, or there isn’t a bonus for either side.
People play on the weekends more than any time during the week. Where I live the incentive dithers between killer & survivor even on weekends, sometimes hourly.
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Did it get a 75% reduction? No.
CoH was absolutely without doubt broken on the levels of 2016 NOED.
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Tunneling gens doesn’t exist. Only him and his fans use that term. Gen rush yeah that exists when people stack brand new part (which need a heavy nerf) with other gen perks.
when he was talking about blight he said that he was just an ok killer. As in mediocre and that nurse was the only good one. He also makes it seem like spirit was nerfed to freddy levels of bad since he always complains about the nerf when he plays her.
I remember him saying that every hook should be a scourge hook when he was complaining about not having on in the area.
He heavily defended eruption saying that it was fine for the game in its buffed form
he doesnt play against swfs all the time. Anytime he sees a team make a simple play he will point out how they are swf💀. And yeah if you go up vs a top swf then yeah you will lose because your not good enough. Your not supposed to win every game. He is one of those players that can win 9 games but lose one and complain about it being “impossible”
ds is garbage. You make 0 distance and the killer goes back for you anyway so it doesnt help with tunneling.
Do i think gen rush stuff and maps need nerfs? Yes however the dude just cries all the time and he is rude to anyone that disagrees with him
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Pretty much, yeah, if you look at how useful each half was. Removing the self heal is ABSOLUTELY removing the biggest part of its use, exactly like Call of Brine.
Call of Brine had its regression half removed, Circle of Healing had its self-heal part removed. In both cases, the problematic element and the reason why people used it were addressed.
The reason I bring it up is that it irks me when I see people say "they killed regression without touching genrush!", because it misses the fact that 6.7.0 fixed one of the game's biggest + longest-standing issues and I really do not like that being glossed over for the sake of a narrative.
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As a whole looking at the last few years of DBD killer was recently best right before CoH got added to the game. Everything after that is downhill unless you're playing Nurse/Blight with strong addons.
Why would you use CoB if the point of using the perk is to regress generators? You can still use CoH for super strong team healing that is on the level with We'll make it (which is still super strong and had zero changes from the dreaded "heal nerf").
That's not even close to being the same.
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I don't know, why would you? It's an interesting hypothetical, to present a situation where the point of the perk is to regress generators.
Because of course, on live, you'd use Call of Brine to track when generators are being repaired, since that's the thing that it does. Of course again, equally as obvious, I'm not stating those two perks are of comparable strength.
The point isn't that the changes are of equal impact, either, not one to one. Taking the update as a whole, though, yes, the changes are equal. Survivors lost ultra-fast self healing, killers lost (or at least partially lost) obnoxious 3-gen nonsense. Frankly, killers came out ahead in that patch, and by a long shot.
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-"Because of course, on live, you'd use Call of Brine to track when generators are being repaired"
Here's the problem with what you're saying. Why use Bond when I could use CoH to track people who need healing - not that I want to heal them, I just want to know where they are.
CoB had a very clear purpose : regress generators. Nobody was using it to track gen repairs and that was just a built in bonus.
-"The point isn't that the changes are of equal impact"
Oh so one minute you say that survivors lost X and killers lost Y so everything is fine. And then you say: we'll it's no big deal if the losses are not equal.
The problem is that the altruism healing nerf didn't go through. That would have slowed down the game but what we have now really doesn't. Killers lost way more than survivors and you really see it on the bad killers that were massively being propped up by gen regression.
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...I'm starting to wonder if the segments of a post you highlight are the only parts you read.
The changes to Call of Brine and Circle of Healing specifically are not equal. The changes to the overall element being changed between survivor and killer - healing and 3gen protection, respectively - are equal. Or, at least, comparable. Like I said, killers came out ahead.
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-"killers came out ahead."
I can't agree with that sorry. I would rather play in the pre 6.1 patch world than how the game is right now. As bad as DH was it wasn't "all this".
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I don't really think personal preference makes much of a difference regarding this one patch, though? The two things being tackled simply break out that way. Survivors always self healed. Killers did not always need to jealously hold a 3gen for forty minutes. If you played normally as killer, the changes in that patch to CoB and Overcharge shouldn't have affected you since those perks weren't that useful for regular regression anyway; the only thing you'd notice is Pain Res being sidegraded. If you played normally as survivor, you're gonna notice your medkits and CoH being much weaker.
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I prefer tunneling gens, not because I'm a fan of tru3, but because in my opinion represent better the situation. I follow him as other dbd streamer, except for one in particular.
Let me ask you something, because I don't know if it's the case. Tru3 was saying that blight is an ok killer when he was on the ptb or was already live?
I don't know everything he says because I usually whatch dbd videos without audio.
He heavily defended eruption? I missed this. If he said something like "Eruption is balanced since prove thyself exist in the game" I agree with him, because eruption was the only actual counter to prove thyself.
"You're not supposed to win every game", well I quite disagree with this, because if you're strong, really strong, you're supposed to win every game. Someone told me that a streamer did 1000 win streak with blight, I've seen this streamer playing and he is very very strong (also if I don't really believe the 1000 win streak thing).
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I’m here to provide a counterexample to what you said. I play killer and solo q about 50/50. I’d say about half of my solo queue matches are fun and I probably escape about 1/3 on average. The 50% of the matches that aren’t fun are usually due to survivor DCing (I think DC penalties should be increased, btw), hook suiciding even when the match isn’t even close to being lost, or most often it’s survivors who do nothing while you’re being chased. So yeah, I know it sucks a lot of the time, but I really don’t know how you make that significantly better without also making SWF even more OP than it already is.
What is super frustrating to me is that in all the years of attempting to balance the game, the fact that SWF can and should be nerfed (there are plenty of ways to it) has gone completely ignored by the devs. I’m totally fine with the most recent anti-camp mechanics being added, but it’s yet another change that buffs both solo q and SWF.
There is an obvious solution here which is to buff survivor but then also nerf SWF in a way that makes it easier for killers to deal with. BHVR won’t do it because they know they’ll lose a lot of players, even though it would help bring everything into better balance across the game.
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-"If you played normally as killer, the changes in that patch to CoB and Overcharge shouldn't have affected you since those perks weren't that useful for regular regression anyway"
That's a false statement. I've used a single gen regression perk for years going back to the "time of Pop". With just one regression perk I was able to slow down survivors on average 90-180 seconds per game.
It was lame when people would touch a gen and pre-run so the killer just kicked that generator and went back to their three gen. What part of "pre running away from a gen" changed? It didn't.
What changed? The killer lost almost their entire ability to contest generators. What then do you have the ability to still do? You contest unhooks. Is that fun? No.
When I played the more terrible killers like trapper I used two gen regression perks (/gasp). Trapper with two regression perks was not bad. I used AGI with him as well to have good synergy for PR.
Tell me honestly though what survivor perk you would continue to use if it got a 75% nerf? How cool would Adrenaline be if it said : instantly heal 25% of the next health state and gain 1.25 seconds of haste.
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Hold on, what do you mean?
Why has that changed, exactly? If you only want to use one regression perk, you can still do that, you've still got options. Better options than pre-nerf CoB, too, assuming you aren't sticking by three generators and harassing survivors away to let CoB eat away at them. Pain Res, Eruption, hell, even new Pop and Jolt are perfectly serviceable. Let alone if you branch out into other forms of slowdown, where there are even more options, and let alone if you allow yourself full builds of complementary perks with more than one slowdown included.
Even if you lost your entire ability to regress generators (which you absolutely haven't) that doesn't automatically mean you have to start camping. You could just, generate normal slowdown pressure through downs and hooks.
As for survivor perks, I don't know. Other than pre-nerf CoH, I can't think of any survivor perks that need a 75% nerf like CoB did to its regression half. It's kind of a false example when CoB needed a change and other perks don't, wouldn't you agree?
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