When are we having a conversation about exit gate placement?
This is a big pain point in the game. The EGC often feels hopeless. There should never be a circumstance where The Killer can watch both gates with little to no effort and movement. The gates need some placement changes, or obstacles around the exit gate or limit the viewing distance of the indication lights on them. Make the lights only visible within a small distance of the gate, so that The Killer has to get close enough. There hasn't been much talk about exit gates and a few times the devs have indicated it's a conversation for the future. When is that future?
Comments
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True that exit gates need discussion. Both exit gates should always be watchable at the same time by the killer. If I manage to close Hatch, which gaves a massive chance for the survivor to escape in a situation where they should have already lost, I should not have to worry about another situation where the survivor is practically guaranteed to escape. If both exit gates are far, all the survivor has to do is hide until the killer comes and leaves then open the exit gate and it's a guaranteed escape.
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Nothing should be guaranteed and you're not entitled to anything in the game. Even if you wiped all three survivors before they completed one gen, that doesn't mean you're entitled to a 4K. That's the problem with the logic, people think they are entitled to things they haven't yet done. The game owes you nothing. Besides, people often forget that there has to be hope, even if the hope is slim. Otherwise there's no reason for people to keep playing if their fate is sealed. EGC is about providing hope and a reason for the last one or two survivors to remain in the match. It's not supposed to be something that favors The Killer and guarantees a 4K. Sometimes the gates spawn impossibly far, but a lot of times they spawn impossibly close, there needs to be lower and upper limits so that it's fair and hopeful for both sides.
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In this case the only way it's hopeless is if you're the last Survivor alive. In that case there's Hatch. If Hatch has been closed... Well I don't think a third chance needs to be guaranteed, especially with no effort on the recipients part.
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Big facts. Please devs give me guaranteed escape, when my team lost a match and i didn't get luck with a hatch. What a nonsense, lol.
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I am for always having gates being separated, at the same time though the gate should regress over time.
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How is it guaranteed if killer can find you? It's not like the gates open automatically as soon as the last survivor moves in their vicinity. Survivor has to strategize some. If killer finds them it's gg, if killer cannot find them then survivors can leave. RNG can be extremely unfair. Such as Hatch spawning under the Killers feet. When did the survivor get the chance to look for hatch in that scenario? Survivor needs time to open Exit Gates though, it's not instant, so killer can usually make it in time.
Post edited by JustAnotherNewbie on5 -
I remember ages ago making a post similar to this. I was met with the same response over and over that eventually sunk in with me. That is what I will tell you. If you are in the Endgame Collapse and it was not because you managed to power all gens and open a door, it means that your team has lost. The doors spawn randomly and they can favor you just as much as they can favor the killer. If done right it is still very possible to escape if you time it.
You mention here that there has to be hope. There is in the form of the hatch. The hatch, if you find it, is a free escape for the last living person even though your team has failed your objective and lost the game. If the killer finds it first then you are at mercy of the doors. You are right. The game owes you nothing and you are not entitled to an escape. You are not always entitled to a fair chance when you have lost your match and are receiving a pity offer from the entity. That means accepting that sometimes the RNG of the hatch/doors will work in your favor and sometimes they will work against you and being able to accept that either way. Honestly the hatch still being in the game as a pity offer has been a hot topic for the longest time and I can't believe it is still here. Just move on to the next match and aim to do better so you don't have to worry about RNG of the doors in the first place
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regressing gates is stupid.
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The hatch and doors at Endgame Collapse is a pity offer to the last survivor despite having failed at your objective. If RNG happens to be on your side then great. If not then it is what it is. A pity offer shouldn't have a fairness aspect to it. It should be just what it is: RNG. Honestly lore wise a pity escape doesn't make sense from the entity but the hatch isn't going anywhere. Everyone who has played survivor should be happy it made it this far (myself included)
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Lore wise the last survivor should also escape. Since the game is based on horror movies, final girl always makes it out. I thought this was a known trope by now.
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there is no way you are this insistent on your undeserved win. you couldn't do your objective, you couldn't find hatch and you still get your chance to get doors, lol. it's a team game and you lost as a team, deal with it.
the gates are almost never a problem if there are multiple people doing them so i am assuming you aren't complaining about that.
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In case you haven't noticed mate, this isn't a movie. Movie logic doesn't apply here, and the entity wouldn't exactly have mercy on survivors. Regardless though, doesn't change the fact it is a pity escape and a fair chance for such should never be a thing
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Yeah, but a lot of people use horror film tropes to rationalize why killers deserve 4Ks. It seems when this logic is used to support survivor escapes, the arguments are about how the game isn’t a horror film. There’s bias.
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People talk about killers in that way all the time and how he should be the power role. Where do they base that on? Horror movies obviously. Not to forget all the licensed stuff we have.
As for your previous point about survivors having failed and not deserving to win, then the same point can be made about killer and their end game perks. If killers have not killed anyone once gens are done the should not have massive potential to come back since they failed their objective all game and NOED should not activate at all. Why give killer the pity kill they don't deserve when they played badly 95% of the match?
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The problem is that your premise is based on a false assumption. No one's looking for a free escape, I never go for the hatch. I find the hatch and I leave it because I like going for the door. Besides the doors the only way to progress your MMR for those that care about it. I just like the challenge of trying to get the door over looking for the hatch. The other thing is that it's the same scenario if you've completed all five generators yourself. I've been in matches with Soul Survivor and The Killer's camping the hatch, which favors The Killer's interaction with closing it over you jumping in. And I've done two generators as last one but the exit gates were so close that it was impossible to escape. I didn't say it was difficult or challenging, I said impossible. The Killer could stand in one spot and see both gates, nothing I could do at that point.
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The Killer doesn't have the chance to look for Hatch if it spawns underneath the Survivor either. And when it doesn't spawn underneath either of them they both have the chance to run around looking for it, hell, if the Survivor is Healthy they can take a hit and leverage a speed boost too.
The problem with your suggestion is that if the Switch is too hidden and too separated from the other switch, running back and forth between them is always a losing game, especially if the Survivor leverages the grace period of the Light not showing to take a "mulligan" at committing to the switch if they start hearing the Terror radius return.
And if the Killer commits to scouring an area to look for the Survivor at a switch they can't know the Survivor is at, you've just made it a 50/50. Which is kinda unwarranted given the Survivor already failed to work as a team with others to open the Exit Gates, and failed to find The Hatch.
It's a messy scenario, but I think it works as it is.
If you wanted to make it more "high-stakes" with guaranteed "good spawns" of gates, I'd say that the Survivor should have Killer Instinct applied on them for 6s after The Hatch is closed. So the Killer now knows where you are, and it's up to you to successfully hide from then on, instead of at base having a 50/50 on opening an Exit Gate.
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If you're nice all year long then BHVR won't take away your ability to slug for the 4k.
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More of this killer logic. How did I lose exactly? I'm still alive. The killer doesn't win because three people are dead, likewise, the survivors don't win because the exit gates are powered or even opened. Things can be challenging and difficult but should rarely be impossible or hopeless. That's what a lot of the exit gate placement becomes. If the killer can watch both gates at the same time, then there's no hope of being able to open it. The other point is that you make a lot of assumptions about why I'm in this state of the match, which is typical of that killer logic. The reason is immaterial, every player should feel they have a chance to succeed until it's over. And the game isn't over until it's over!
I think the principal point of the hatch is to provide hope, without hope there's less incentive or motivation for people to complete the match. I don't view it as a pity, I can't remember the devs ever indicating that it was to pity the survivor.
If anything, the EGC provides a free kill. During the collapse, the killer doesn't even have to play killer, they just have to play gatekeeper. The entity will provide them with full credit for a kill they had nothing to do with.
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Personally I never agreed with the concept of NOED anyway, but let's dissect the issue with that argument. When a killer plays bad, we are assuming doors are powered, everyone is still alive and they don't have many hooks. There are perks to fix this yes. However when survivors go down to this they also have things to counteract it such as Borrowed Time, Dead Hard, Adrenaline if it hasn't been used yet and a base boost to speed with endurance for 10 seconds. All of this with some protection hits from friends is going to almost ensure you all make it through the door. Also should mention if the killer played that bad, NOED should be expected and someone should be cleansing totems for counterplay.
The same cannot be said for hatch. There is no way around it. Perks are one thing, but the hatch is a base game mechanic in core gameplay that actively rewards failure. The killer doesn't get a built in base mechanic for a pity kill. So why should you get a "fair chance" at a pity escape. Accept the loss and move on
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Killer is faster and if survivor is injured there's no speed boost.
I'll say it again for everyone to hear, if no escape should be guaranteed (look at DS and OTR de activating in end game) no kill should be guaranteed either (look at slugging for the 4k).
What you are suggesting is a win more for killer. If you wanna give killer instinct to killer you should give the survivor something too (running speed, or action speed).
Again, the team failing should not guarantee 4k for the killer. We've already said this. If survivors do 5 gens, by your logic they should all be able to escape. Killer was outclassed all game. Regardless, killer has much greater comeback potential than survivors not only through perks but by playing killer. The resources (pallets, medkits etc.) have been depleated. By your logic if killer has not killed anyone once 5 gens are done then it should be punishing for him as he failed his objective 90% of the match. Why should NOED activate? To gift the Killer an undeserved kill or more? If we wanna punish failures on both sides (with survives having a harder time coming back from a death at 5-4 gens) then Killer's snowball potential in end game, should all but disappear as well. He had 10-15 mins to make good decisions and he didn't. He does not deserve a compensation kill, not even the idea of one.
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More of that killer logic! Why do you assume I anticipate an undeserved win? How do you know I'm in a position that is unworthy of escape? It can be a team game but it can also be a solo game, per the devs.
How do you know I wasn't able to do my objective? How do you know I couldn't find the hatch? How do you know that the hatch didn't spawn right under the killer? Or that the killer isn't camping it? Like I said previously, I have often found the hatch but chose not to go in it for many reasons. I know some people who specifically avoid the hatch because they want to progress their MMR. Being the last one doesn't necessarily mean anything, but you assume it means that you were terrible and didn't earn the escape and therefore should die and that's the problem!
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Adrenaline is hard countered by NOED. BT comes into play only when survivors are hooked. A killer going for NOED snowball will probably leave the downed survivor slugged, which is strategically the better choice than hooked. It takes longer to recover and he buys time to look for the others while survivor is slugged.
You cannot take protection hits against NOED. Killer can slug near NOED. Now he can protect both his slug and NOED. Can you find all 5 totems without wasting ungodly amounts of time before EGC?
Playing killer rewards failure, because by the time end game rolls around resources are already dried up (medkits, pallets). The killer got stunned all game and then broke the pallets. All gens are done. The killer has deadzones in end game now. Which is basekit, it's the game itself that favors killer at this stage.
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That would almost always guarantee an exit for survivor though which isn’t really fair imo. I don’t mind the rng of it. Usually if there’s only one survivor left to open an exit gate, the killer has done a good job and probably deserves the chance to choose their fate as well.
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The devs have made it pretty clear that the odds are supposed to be stacked against the last Survivor after the Hatch is closed. By that point, the Survivors have already had two separate chances to escape (Gens, hatch), and failed both.
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because you can't "solo-deserve?" a win in a team game, shouldn't at least. if survivors win, they can get a door with multiple people alive and get someone escape.
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So you didnt power the gens or find the hatch but you still want a guaranteed escape? Dedicate a perk slot to sole survivor if its that much of an issue.
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Without hatch, Killers will get further nerf.
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Who says it's a team game? The devs have said you can play it as a team or solo.
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More assumptions and talking points already shut down. At least read if you're going to reply.
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Impossible and odds stacked against are two different things.
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devs have thought gates are fine as is. if we are to put logic aside now
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They last said that two years ago. Nothing is set in stone, hence feedback and conversation.
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Indeed. And no matter how close together the gates may be, there's still plenty of opportunity for the Killer to slip up, or for the random numbers to break in your direction. Maybe the hatch spawned far away from the exit gates and you happened to be standing right next to one when it was closed.
If you're looking for a way to escape that'll work every time, that's not going to happen. DbD is a team game full of RNG; it is possible, especially as a Survivor, to make no mistakes and still lose.
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Team as in swf solo as in soloQ....the game is 4 Survivors vs 1 Killer. If Survivors....all soloQ as well.... Work as a team then they can win but when even 1 person starts to "play solo" that weakens the survivors chances of escaping. By adding even a few things in your suggestions would considerably raise the chances of a Survivor getting a free escape especially if the RNG puts each door football fields apart on opposite sides of the match.
The current setup is to allow ALL Killers have a chance to defend the doors that includes Killers with no Travel based power.
Also you have said it yourself you IGNORE the hatch because you want a door escape....so your giving up on a pitty chance to escape quickly vs the game of chance with the doors.
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fair. then, along with many other people, my personal opinion is that it is way too much to ask. i don't want to see even more (or become one of the) slug for the 4k gamers.
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There's no way to make a mistake when all you have to do is stand in one spot and watch both gates. Impossibility precludes chance, when something is impossible it simply cannot be done. Sometimes it feels hopeless, and perhaps that is by design, the devs should offer us insight into the process.
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Yes, but that is for the players to decide. At least, according to the devs, sometimes you can have success by being selfish. The current setup leaves a lot up to RNG, sometimes the gates are so far away that it does guarantee an escape. Sometimes they are so close that it guarantees you won't escape. Why is it such a problem for there to be a logic behind the placement? The gate should never be on top of each other and likewise they shouldn't be impossibly far for any killer. It should also never be hopeless for The Killer, and contrary to what you state, sometimes it is.
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DS and OTR deactivate given that the fundamental game-state shifts in such a way to make their effects overpowered in the new game-state. That being an area they need to move towards to achieve a goal, instead of something they need to sit uninterrupted on to achieve a goal. They let the Survivor run from the Killer so they can hide to repair again. During the EGC they don't need to hide anymore, they just need to run. Their effects post EGC are stronger than prior EGC. If they were not disabled in the EGC, and were still viable Perks prior EGC, they would outclass all other Perks that are balanced only for the standard gameplay loop.
I'll say it again for everyone to hear, if no escape should be guaranteed (look at DS and OTR de activating in end game) no kill should be guaranteed either (look at slugging for the 4k).
How do situations prior hatch spawn have any relation to your argument in this thread?
What you are suggesting is a win more for killer. If you wanna give killer instinct to killer you should give the survivor something too (running speed, or action speed).
The Survivor can hide, after the Killer Instinct dissipates (This probably needs to be tweaked, but the idea is to give the Killer an area to search). Walk, focus line of sight. And then go towards an Exit to try and open the Exit Gate that now needs a guaranteed patrol.
But removing the possibility that a Survivor would stand at the Exit Gate, waiting for the Hatch to be closed, and then the Killer has a 50% chance of going for the correct Exit Gate, otherwise the Survivor escapes without doing anything apart from standing at the Gate waiting for Hatch to be closed.
Again, the team failing should not guarantee 4k for the killer. We've already said this
Who is "We"
If survivors do 5 gens, by your logic they should all be able to escape
I said "open the Exit Gates", which includes using a Switch to open an Exit Gate to start the EGC.
Killer was outclassed all game
Would you be saying that if the Killer got 8 Hooks and was in chase once the last Generator was completed?
Regardless, killer has much greater comeback potential than survivors not only through perks but by playing killer.
The point of an asymmetrical role. Stronger 1v1 but overall equal against a group. In this case equality is balanced through time-management of objectives.
The resources (pallets, medkits etc.) have been depleated.
Yes this is part of the attrition Survivors have against the Killer in terms of resource/time-management from the start. How effectively do they use them, or do they use them all up too quickly.
By your logic if killer has not killed anyone once 5 gens are done then it should be punishing for him as he failed his objective 90% of the match
This game is about attrition, and Ebony Moris that allowed the Killer to instaKill Survivors when they get downed the first time were removed in order to prolong Survivor experience of the Trial. (Well, The Shape still has his tombstones).
Each Hook State effectively acts progress towards that goal (not that it really feels all that special).
Until Survivors actually escape through the Exit Gates after completing the Generators, they are still in play. The Exit Gate Switches are not some new feature recently added and the game has been balanced around Survivors still needing to complete The Switch to open the Exit Gate.
Every Hook is progress towards that goal, and base-BT still being active in the EGC already punishes the Killer given the same spiel I gave for DS/OTR above.
Why should NOED activate?
It's a Perk. Not a base feature. It also is useless until the last gen is Powered and acts as opportunity cost while not in effect. Discuss its balance, though this discussion isn't relevant to the topic at hand.
To gift the Killer an undeserved kill or more? If we wanna punish failures on both sides (with survives having a harder time coming back from a death at 5-4 gens) then Killer's snowball potential in end game, should all but disappear as well. He had 10-15 mins to make good decisions and he didn't. He does not deserve a compensation kill, not even the idea of one.
You went from arguing about Exit Gate placement and solo Survivor closed Hatch scenarios being underserved kills to complaining about EGC camping resulting in undeserved kills.
What are you trying to argue in this thread?
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Got nothing to do with pity. The game doesn't even count hatch as an escape - it's considered null. Hatch exists purely to kick-start the end of game countdown.
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And that is your opinion, I posted a few suggestions. Maybe they don't work, maybe they do! I remember so many feedback topics in the past where people made suggestions about nerfing DS, buffing BT, nerfing DH and people thought it was stupid and would never happen and should never happen and yet here we are. So I'm not going to be discouraged because my peers disagree or don't think something is necessary. That determination is ultimately for the developers to decide and there's precedent for them making decisions that not everyone agrees with.
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That's not an impossible scenario. All you gotta do is camp one of the gates and wait for the Killer to close the hatch, or get the Killer to chase you, lose them, and then run back to the gates.
The devs have already answered this. You just didn't like the answer: You've already had two chances to escape, and missed both. If you're expecting anything better than slim chances of success, that's just egregious.
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That's not even remotely true. Every match is different, you speak about them as if they are a monolith. I already acknowledged that 2 years ago the devs said they weren't worried about exit gates but that it was something they might consider in the future. I think two years is a long time, perhaps they agree that nothing needs to be changed. That's the point of these topics on the official forums.
Even in your scenario, let's say you managed to get a clean getaway. You creep your way back to one of the gates, what does the killer do? Go back to the vantage point to watch both gates. Like I said, The Killer becomes the gatekeeper, they don't have a need to search or chase you. They just have to make sure you don't go to the gate and look for that bright red light that can be seen for miles. This assumes you accomplish all of this with sufficient time to even complete the opening sequence. This is an impossible situation for the survivor.
And some say that that's fair, perhaps. But that's just an example. Since you seem to think that camping the exit gate is the key to escaping. News flash, it isn't!
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My main problem with close exits is when the killer can just stand in one spot watching both. Atleast put obstacles/blockers so killer has to move around to see the exit levers/lights. Like when the exits are close on Lery's the killer has to go up and down the hall to see the exit progress, can't just stand in the middle watching both.
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Gates distance is not a problem for me, its only when 2 Gates are at the same wall, where there is nothing in between, or somehow a hill in the middle of both Gates. But its really rare though. For me, Gates are fine, sometimes you get Gates spawn that favor survivors, and sometimes killers'
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Yeah, your chances of success are slim, very slim, often requiring the Killer to make serious mistakes, or for the RNG to turn out very favorably for the Survivor. As it should be; the Killer has stopped the Survivors from completing the gens AND found the hatch first. I think they've earned the right to an easy kill every now and then, unless you'd prefer they all slug for the 4K instead?
In single-player games, you're supposed to always have a chance at victory, to never be put in a no-win situation. But Dead by Daylight is a 4v1 where Survivors are supposed to stand together or die alone, and by the time the hatch has closed, they have very clearly failed to do the former. In a team game, you're supposed to win or lose as a team. If you were hoping for a single-player game where only your personal survival skills are important, then...
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Not always. Some horror movies jump the final girl at the end, when everyone thinks she's safe.
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I need this gif, but the guy on the right edited into The Doctor
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As I already said, impossible means no chance. This isn't even about luck, skill or how slim a possibility. Sometimes the exit gates are impossibly close to open. And as I already addressed twice, you're building your position on the fact that the survivors didn't complete the five generators or that they even had a chance at finding the hatch. I disagree that anyone has a right or is entitled to anything in the game. You seem to think the killer is entitled to an easy kill.
And this is nothing to do with single player games, so there's no need for conflation. My point is really clear, you don't have to agree with it but it's clear. There is no ambiguity in this topic. And the devs have indicated it's not a team game, it can be but it can also be a solo experience. That is for the survivors to decide.
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If the gates are "impossibly" close together, then you got unlucky with the spawns. That's how luck works.
If you're going to talk about entitlement, why do you feel entitled to a "fair" chance to escape every match, even after the hatch is closed? It's already close to a 50/50 as to whether the Killer or Survivor will find the hatch first, so why do you feel entitled to an EGC where you always have a chance to escape?
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I didn't say anything about fair. I said it's impossible, and hopeless. The game shouldn't ever feel hopeless, sure it can feel more difficult or challenging depending on the state of things, but not impossible. Luck shouldn't be involved here, the Gates shouldn't be in a position where it's impossible for either party to achieve success. I never said anything about being entitled or expected to escape. This is why it's important to read, so that you can understand what people are saying. I know there are a lot of people that think they are entitled to escape because they powered the doors or those that think they're entitled to a 4k because they killed three people, I'm not in those camps. And I recognize that some elements are RNG, but that doesn't mean everything has to be. Disagree or agree, that's fine. The whole point is to promote discussion. I don't know what people think until they post and the devs don't know what anyone thinks until we do.
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