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When are we having a conversation about exit gate placement?
Comments
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The game should never feel hopeless? Okay then, here's a situation where the Killer feels hopeless: The exit gates are open and all the Survivors are alive. No one is injured (Perhaps thanks to Adrenaline), and even if it was physically possible for the Killer to down someone before they reach the exit gates, Protection hits will put a stop to that.
So should every Killer just get a free NOED every time all 4 Survivors are up and running to the exit gates? The picture's pretty grim for the Killer at that point; the only thing that'll save them is an instadown power (Which they'd need to bring beforehand), or the Survivors messing up horribly.
At some point, you have to let the opposing team win a game when they've won the game.
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I think both extremes need to be ironed out.
There shouldn't be gates that you can see from one spot.
There shouldn't be gates on opposite sides of Mothers Dwelling.
Ideally, they'd have a weighted system for Killers. Killers like Blight? They can have further apart gates. Killers like myers? Give them closer gates with LoS blockers.
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That's a matter of skill. If the survivors were able to do all five generators and open both gates, then it's going to be difficult for The Killer to overcome that, but it's not impossible. It can definitely feel hopeless and some people will give up on either side, but that feeling doesn't mean it's impossible. It's still possible to get a 4k, you don't even need the right perks or an instadown.
On the other hand, I have no control over the exit gate placement. It has nothing to do with my skill, or what I have or haven't accomplished in the match. I could solo all five generators and the game doesn't make a distinction. The gates are in place and in some cases, ime most of the time, are so close that The Killer can watch both at the same time, thus making it impossible. The fact that something is impossible leads to a feeling of despair and hopelessness. However, feeling hopeless about a situation doesn't mean it's impossible.
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Uh, no. It is often physically impossible for the Killer to win unless the Survivors mess up horribly. In the time it takes an M1 Killer to hit a Survivor twice (Assuming no protection hits, which is being very generous), a Survivor can easily run all the way to the exit gates from a pretty long distance. I know because I have a great deal of personal experience in this department.
Without a power that lets them push far past the normal limitations of an M1 Killer, the Killer is almost always just completely screwed if the exit gates are open and all 4 Survivors are healthy. Most Killers can only subtract so many health states in such a short timeframe.
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Even if those situations feel hopeless, and sometimes they seem insurmountable, they aren't impossible. Killers can still get a 4K but I agree that it's less likely, but at least it's possible.
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Boy, that "possible" is really putting in some work there.
So long as we're counting on the opposing team to play like complete idiots and make game-throwing blunders, I guess we can agree that it's not impossible to escape with two exit gates right next to one another, either.
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You're grasping at straws but that's fine. When things are possible, anything can happen! They have to at least be possible 😅
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The guy who calls it "possible" to get a 4K as an M1 Killer when the exit gates are open and all 4 Survivors are healthy- without any form of Exposed, I might add- is saying I'm grasping at straws. When I need a big hit of copium, I'll know who to call.
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Yes, it is possible. I can't help it if you perhaps lack skill, play smarter, prevent them from getting to the end game. That's the point, it might be hard but it's not impossible. Just because you feel it's hopeless, doesn't mean it's impossible. At least you have control over your anecdote. No one has control over the exit gate placement. I don't get to play well and prevent the gates from spawning on the same wall or in a position that can be watched from one location. Huge difference.
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Everything you just said can be applied to the scenario you complain about. If you don't like losing to bad exit gate placement, then don't let the Killer get 3 kills.
Besides, you think you're the only one who can lose to bad exit gate placement? The difference between getting an endgame hook on the other side of the map from the exit gates and getting one right next to an opened exit gate is huge.
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I have no control over the other three survivors, assuming everyone was playing as a team anyway. Even then, I've seen matches fall apart with all four survivors alive. Which goes back to my point, that these different scenarios aren't impossible. On the other hand you are in total control as The Killer. You're a team of one. I already addressed that point, the exit gates shouldn't be impossible for anyone. Both the survivors and The Killer. Maybe they should be responsive? The placement changes based on The Killer.
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Yeah, it's a 4v1. It's a team game, and that means it is possible to make no mistakes and still lose. Conversely, it is also possible to make multiple stupid mistakes and still win. Kinda like when the last Survivor gets hatch despite spending most of the match running around being useless. Don't like it? There's the "Play as Killer" button.
Again, if the exit gates are open and you're playing against an M1 Killer with no instadowns, it's the Survivors' game to lose. Literally all you have to do in order to escape is run straight towards the exit gates. If the Survivors can't do that, that says more about them than about the game.
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Certainly it shouldn't be the case that the gates should spawn so close together, but neither should they be ridiculously far apart. There needs to be a steady medium to the spawns so both sides have an opportunity.
Sadly, you'll rarely find gate spawns which are 100% balanced. That's just the nature of the game. However, it perhaps needs to remove the extremes.
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How many games have you played where you have literally 0 chance of winning and you had to manually feed yourself to the enemy.
When a player has 0 chance of winning, the game is immediately brought to an end, save exceptions like the game getting glitched and getting you stuck and you having to forcefully killing yourself to restart the sequence.
No one, and I repeat, no one at all likes going through the humiliation of handing themselves to the enemy to finish a match they've poured their entire effort on.
As always, this is better seen if you flip it around. Imagine if you're playing killer and you lost so hard against a SWF that by the time EGC starts they supress your attacks and you're powerless to stop survivors blinding and teabagging you. Right now you can push them out, but in this situation you're powerless. What are you going to do? Walk to the exit gates and kindly ask them to leave? Or are you gonna be petty and look to a wall to avoid giving them the satisfaction of humiliating you? You've already lost, you're not gonna play their game. Just like when survivors hide in EGC.
Killers are always so entitled. "Survivors shouldn't heal that fast! Survivors shouldn't do gens that fast! Survivors shouldn't be able to counter face camping! Survivors shouldn't, shouldn't, shouldn't! Why do survivors want a chance to win? Maybe don't play the game LOL", but when there's a tiny fraction of a chance that they are the ones that don't have a chance, they become massive crybabies. "Boo-hoo! I cannot counter DH when it's used for distance!" "Now it's nerfed, but now I can't counter it on pallets!" "Now it's nerfed, but I still have to wait to make sure they don't have it!" "Nooo, survivors are sabotaging hooks and I can't hook them! I feel entitled to this hook, I won the chase!!!!" "Nooo, survivors shouldn't be able to pick themselves up! Otherwise I have to waste a tiny fraction of my power on hooking people!!!"
I want you to stop thinking like an entitled kid and think for half a second how would you like to play a game where you spend your time with literally 0% chance of winning, just being someone else's play thing. Literally school bullying, the videogame.
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The devs have said it can be a team game or a solo experience. It's up to you how to play. I agree with you, especially on that person getting the hatch without doing anything all game. It would be interesting if you had to earn the hatch, but I don't know what that would play like. Your situation sounds hopeless but The Killer allowed it to get to a hopeless state. The last survivor doesn't have much control over what the other players do. They also can't influence the spawning of hatch and exit gates and how you played up until that point is immaterial. And as killer, you can play exceptional and dominate and find the hatch and close it but the gates are so far apart that it's impossible for you to do anything. That also isn't good! Like I said, I don't think it should be impossible for either side. And sometimes it is.
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Both of these scenarios happen very frequently. I've had many games where I've been the last survivor and had unlucky exit gates, I've had many games where I've gone against a good SWF who completely clowned on me and did the whole wait at exit gate to rub the loss in, hell in some cases they 99'd the last few gens just to prevent the game from ending. My reaction to both scenarios is the same, "oh well, next game".
I personally don't care too much about the last survivor escaping with one major exception: adept achievements.
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In a game that's already given you two separate chances to win, a third is still not enough for you? Killers wish they could get another chance after camping their endgame hook fails (And there's no guarantee they'll get even that, of course).
I play plenty of Survivor myself, and I really don't give a crap about dying. It goes with the territory when you queue as solo. More importantly for me, there isn't nearly as much pressure on me to succeed, and contributing to the team adequately is pretty simple; gens don't run away from you. It's a much less stressful role for me.
If the possibility of being helpless really bothers you that much, why don't you just play Killer? Because I thought it was pretty obvious that Survivors are supposed to be ultimately defenseless against the Killer.
Survivor is explicitly a co-op role. It's right there on the game's home page. And whether you play solo or SWF, you're all still, by definition, on the same team. And being on a team comes with the good and bad points; in Team Fortress 2, you can be the best Soldier on the planet, but if your teammates are potatoes, then the opposing team can just overwhelm you with sheer numbers. But you can also be a potato Soldier who gets carried because your teammates actually know what they're doing.
I mean, unless you spend the entire match hiding in some bushes near the outskirts of the map until the hatch spawns, touching the gens intermittently to prevent the AFK crows from appearing, you're ultimately still at your teammates' mercy. At any time, the Killer might find you and down you and your teammates might leave you to die on hook.
If you want your individual skill to be the main deciding factor in whether you win or lose, you picked the wrong role. And if you don't like losing to random chance, you picked the wrong game. You and your team have had 2 chances to escape by the time the hatch is closed, and you blew it. If the third is not to your liking, then too bad. At some point, you have to let the opposing team win a game when they've won a game.
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I meant that "games" as in "videogames", trying to point out that there's very few videogames, that feature a gameplay segment where you lost and you have to manually do a walk of shame towards your enemy to reset the sequence.
Usually when you lost, the game forces you into a death cutscene or spawns the enemy next to you and instantly kills you. The few times that hasn't happened to me it was generally due to a glitch or an oversight by the devs, and I didn't kill myself against the enemy unless the game used no save states (which only happened... what, once? Twice, long ago?)
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Killers should get a sacrifice every survivor instantly button. Survivors don't deserve to escape.
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Well yeah, it's almost like this is a survival horror game where part of the fun is supposed to be watching the Killer brutalize you when they catch you. I mean, Resident Evil 4 has some long and downright egregious death scenes when the zombies get you. Why do you think Survivors line up to get Mori'd on the PTB when a new Killer is released?
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Ah, sorry for the misunderstanding.
I don't entirely agree with your point though. I think situations like being stomped by a SWF or having hopeless exit gates is pretty much the same as enduring any PvP game where the teams are obviously not balanced. OW feels like a good example (thanks to the poor matchmaking ATM), I've played many games where it feels pointless because the enemy team is clearly more skilled than mine and you either have to just play on and get destroyed for over 10mins or you disconnect and suffer a penalty.
The difference with DbD is that generally once you're at the point of hopelessness, the end of the game isn't far away even if it's the 4mins of doing nothing on the floor or opening the gate and waiting (unless you're going against the dreaded SWF bully squad that refuses to finish gens, but they are thankfully very very rare).
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No, it isn't, it can be but people can decide to not be a team player. A soloist can have success and escape without ever being helped or helping anyone. Even so, the last survivor is a solo effort that should be more challenging but never impossible.
You're too focused on the idea of escaping, I never said anything about escaping or winning! What happened prior to that is immaterial. It doesn't matter how well or bad anyone played because the game doesn't factor that in. The point remains, the exit gate placement can be impossible for both the last survivor and The Killer. The hatch is luck based, sometimes it spawns under you and you can close it or jump in! Does the exit gate also need to be about luck?
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And as we've established, you define "Impossible" pretty differently based on whether it's Killers or Survivors we're talking about, so your point is pretty moot. It's always technically possible to escape through the exit gates if the Killer makes a silly mistake, just like how it's always technically possible to 4K so long as all 4 Survivors are still in the trial.
If it's really that important that you always have a chance to escape, why don't you just equip Left Behind and a key?
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Killers have entire builds about getting another chance right at the end game with NOED, NWO, Bloodwarden and the like. There's even videos of killers using Bloodwarden to go from a 0 to a 4k. Are they extreme cases? Yes. Do they still have a chance to win after the gates are open? Also yes.
Survivor end game builds don't prevent them from losing an already lost game, but they give them a bigger chance to at least escape. Survivors only get the satisfaction of escaping a lost game, while killers get the chance to transform defeats into victories. Which is fine by me, but if I'm the last one remaining, I don't want my only gameplay option to be walking towards the killer and stare at them like "You got games on your phone? 🧍" and hoping to God they don't just nod at me for the entirety of the EGC.
Plus, camping the gates will always trump survivor end game builds because the maps are tiny and the walls are at an arm's distance from the center, with close to no LoS breakers in some maps. No amount of Wake up! and Sole Survivor will prevent a camping killer from getting the last kill.
Hatch is almost a nonexistent feature that either spawns at your feet and you get it or it spawns somewhere else and the killer inevitably closes it (or worse, they camp it).
I don't need a win, I just want a chance. A chance at escaping. A chance at being discovered. Standing still to make me lose is not what I want.
When it comes to playing killer, I do play killer. I've been playing killer since 6.1.0 because I was getting fed up of playing matches that were over before 2 gens popped, and now it's my "The matches today are absolute garbage, I want to get some easy BP" role. Nowadays I play survivor/killer around 60/40. Which is the reason why I don't understand people feeling entitled to a 4k so badly. I sweat for the 2k, I try for the 3k and whatever happens to the 4k is up to chance. I don't give up (nor do I usually gift hatches) but I don't really care much either because I've already won regardless.
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Yes. Sometimes gate placement favors killer, sometimes it favors survivor. It's called "RNG". Deal with it. If we're going to handle this thing subjectively, every time I play killer, I think the gate placement always favors the last survivor.
And FYI, "Wake Up" is a perk you can use.
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As far as the game is concerned, any escape is a win for you. Both the hatch and the EGC are a chance to turn a loss into a win.
And just by nature of spawning randomly anywhere on the map, it's pretty close to a 50/50 as to who will find the hatch first. The Killer can run a little faster, but that's hardly a guarantee they'll find the hatch first if it doesn't spawn on top of you, especially since Survivors have a better camera.
If having a chance is really that important to you, you can use keys to open the hatch. You can do gens if the Killer's camping the hatch.
I think you should really consider playing more Killer if being helpless as a Survivor bothers you this much. Not every horror movie ends with the victims even getting a chance to make it out alive. Some horror games end with the protagonist dying no matter what. Sometimes the light at the end of the tunnel is simply a lamp placed there as a cruel prank to give the victims false hope. Sometimes the Killer drags out the victim's demise, just for the fun of it. There are plenty of mechanics in place to ensure the match doesn't truly go on forever.
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That hasn't been established, however, what has been established is that you're conflating. You're introducing all these unrelated points and side discussions about various aspects of the game and you can't seem to focus.
You're not debating in good fate. You keep going back to wanting to discuss a guaranteed escape despite the fact that I've made clear I never mentioned escaping. YOU have, several times now!
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That won't matter with The Killer watching both gates and immediately going towards you the millisecond you touch the door. And as I already stated, I'm aware of the RNG aspect but is that the right approach? Should luck determine the outcome? Should there be more depth to the exit gate mechanic after the hatch is closed? Should it become more balanced for both sides? That's the point!
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Funny, I've been thinking the same thing for a while now. That you're either not debating in good faith, or simply so biased in favor of your chosen role and playstyle that you're outright incapable of seeing the bigger picture.
Because when I take the things you say at face value, I simply cannot form a coherent worldview out of them. Do you believe that the gates spawning next to each other makes it "impossible" to win, or do you believe that getting a 4K on an M1 Killer with no instadowns after the exit gates are open and all 4 Survivors are healthy is anything more than wishful thinking? Those are two pretty incompatible positions. You don't seem to really be taking a firm position on the matter, but simply claiming to believe whatever would need to be true in order to score points against me in that moment.
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I agree, a chance would be nice, sometimes and oftentimes it's guaranteed one way or another.
Someone else suggested that perhaps the exit gates placement should be based on The Killer. Who knows if the game could implement that logic into the procedural placement of the gates!
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You can romaticise it as much as you want, but people don't play multiplayer games knowing they'll have 0% chance to win for a reason.
For example, some horror movies end with the victims alive and only background characters killed or harmed, yet that didn't stop players in VHS from avoiding killer queue altogether. And likewise, DBD killers cried for a buff when kill rate was 55% because they felt they had no chance to win in some matches. Do horror movies where the protagonists survive not fit the narrative, then? We'll just ignore those for the sake of saving gate camping and terrible map design as long as it's in favor of killers? Is standing still to win really a gameplay fantasy you're willing to bend over backwards to defend?
Again, if there truly is no chance to win, you cannot expect the survivor to hand you a 4k. As long as the game doesn't end, the players - all players involved - should have a chance at escaping or catching another survivor. We shouldn't default to "Well, I killed 3 so I essentially just killed all lmao"
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Yeah, some movies end with all the victims alive. Which is why I don't claim that the game is balanced when I 4K every game.
Again, you have the tools to escape even in the most dire circumstances possible, right up until you're lying half dead on the ground. But I really don't see how "So long as the match is still going, all players involved should still have a chance at winning" is a philosophy worth following above all else.
I mean, following that logic, we should unnerf Dead Hard and Decisive Strike at the very least. Both of those give you a chance to win a chase (Or in some cases, a match) that you otherwise lost. But people don't like feeling as though they had their rightfully-earned victories snatched away. At some point, you have to give in and let one team coast on to victory, even if the match isn't technically over yet. It just isn't that satisfying to play a game where nothing that you do really seems to stick; where any play, no matter how skilled or massive, can be undone in an instant.
And in this case, Survivors have already had two chances to escape, and failed. Giving them a third is fine, but after a point, it's time to stop. The match might technically not be over yet because you still have to walk through the exit gates or wait for the last Survivor to die, but the game is effectively done and should be treated as such by the game's mechanics.
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This.
But I suppose it's near impossible to make it killer-dependent. It would be pretty neat though.
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In my opinion this should stay RNG, sometimes this benefict the killer and other times it benefict the survivor. Also, there are some maps in which the spawn locations are fixed, they are far from each other, hard to navigate from one to the other and is very easy for survivors to hide nearby and start opening one of them, almost with a guaranteed escape in most cases, mainly RPD and Lerys.
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You're running on false equivalencies. Even without DH and DS, chases are still winnable perkless and basekit, even if very difficult. There are windows, there are pallets, there's some mindgames and some LoS plays. The chased player still has agency over what they do and there's still the hope that what you're doing is progressing the match to a satisfactory result.
Leaving through the hatch or the exit gates doesn't follow the same logic. For starters, there's no "rightfully-earned victory snatched away". The survivor leaving isn't making the killer lose, it's making the killer not win as much. A hatch escape isn't even a "win", it's an "undo" button. A "try again" of sorts.
We're talking, in a situation where only one single player remains, is it good game design trapping them with a time limit and two easy to camp gates with a killer that has no incentive to leave the sweetspot between both gates?
The killer isn't winning here by outplay, they're winning here by default. By game design. There's no "rightfully-earned victory" here.
If we're going to make it impossible for a player to escape, the game should end on the spot. Otherwise we pretend there's hope in what the survivor does, when it truly isn't, just like with the reworked wiggle skill check.
Do not make people play through futile scenarios. Either end the game or fix gate spawns so there's actual gameplay instead of frantically flickering the mouse while standing in one spot.
You'd be complaining about this situation too if end game didn't have the EGC progress bar and had to stand in the same spot for several minutes with no hope of closing the game. But you're not because our current situation benefits you.
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would also add why not limit some of the high speed killers in the endgame. Like blight can dash back and forth from gate to gate. even wesker when you think you have enough time and the doors about to open and he dashes and its over.
take away their speed in the endgame and make them work for that last kill.
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Clearly you don't play a lot of killer if you truly believe that. Either that or you are insanely bad at survivor. Without playing the top killers, an above average team is going to absolutely slam you. Again, NOED can be countered by cleansing totems. That is the whole point of perks. If the killer is losing as you stated in the post before, then you should have had plenty of time to look for totems. Clearly you did gens a bit to quick without thinking about the potential consequences of someone having NOED. Hatch on the other hand is a base game mechanic that only benefits survivor and cannot be avoided. But as mentioned in my reply on a different post, it has become increasingly clear that you do not read replies fully. You are picking certain points and repeating the same argument against them that I have already debunked. So the discussion is over.
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Halloween, Nightmare on Elm Street, Scream, Texas Chainsaw Massacre, Friday the 13th all have surviving final girl. The sequels are a different topic.
Black Christmas ends on a cliffhanger as we never learn if she actually made it alive.
I'm sure more modern horror movies try to change the trope and can usually be more grim.
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It terms of MMR it might not count. But you are still leaving the match alive are you not? Hatch has been programmed in the game to give that last survivor a chance at escape for when the rest of your team dies and you didn't get everything done. That sounds like pity to me
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If you ignore all of the context that led up to the Killer being in a position to camp both gates, sure, they won by default. But the simple truth is that the Killer had to make a good play- a LOT of good plays- AND get lucky with the hatch spawn- to get in a position where they can camp those exit gates in the first place.
It's no different from Survivors getting the gates open with all 4 people healthy and ready to go. They had to make an entire game's worth of good plays to get in that position, and saying the Killer should still have a chance to win- especially without an endgame build specifically for that scenario, or the Survivors just making a stupid mistake- is just needlessly prolonging the game.
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"especially without an endgame build specifically for that scenario, or the Survivors just making a stupid mistake"
You're so close to realizing what the problem is, but you just don't quite get there.
Killers, while more or less likely depending on the match, can still make plays up until the moment the last survivor leaves. If a survivor makes a mistake, like the all too common "just leave", the killer can still turn around the match depending on which killer they are and what perks they carry.
The last survivor doesn't have that luxury. If the gates spawn easy to camp at a glance, no amount of Wake Up! and Sole Survivor is going to help them open them, and if the killer is camping the gates, there's no room for mistakes or outplays. It's just one player frantically flickering their mouse left and right with no incentive to do literally anything else.
I insist: If EGC didn't exist, you'd be here having this very same conversation, only on the other side of the debate. You'd be asking for the game to either immediately end and kick all survivors out or get ultrabuffed to be able to make last-ditch effort plays. No one enjoys playing a lost match.
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Its so 50/50. Blight has no issue no matter what, so if we make them closer for slow killers he becomes even stronger. But if we keep them as is then the slower ones still suck.
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I'd say seperate the doors a little further apart but also extend the time it takes to power them
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How many times must I repeat myself? On an M1 Killer, if the Survivors are anywhere near an open exit gate, it is PHYSICALLY IMPOSSIBLE for you to catch them before they escape without some kind of instadown. You have hit cooldowns, they have the injured speed boost, and if they're not complete idiots, they're going to make a beeline for the gate.
And this is something that many Survivors know perfectly well, given that they'll often hang out just close enough to the gates that you can't catch them in time, so I have no idea how you've managed to play the game so long without learning this.
The EGC is literally the bare minimum that ensures the game can't be taken hostage forever, so this is a pretty moot point. I've already demonstrated that there's no contradiction in my views; whether for Killers or Survivors, at some point the game has to give in and hand one team the W, even if the game isn't technically over yet.
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